Espen R

It is possible to make it impossible for a man of normal strength and weight to overpower a wheel, it might not stop the weight of a car or a human hitting the pedals with the force of 50G, but it is possible to make it impossible for a normal human that acts within laws of physics to overpower a wheel, I'm not asking for it to be impossible for Superman, because he doesn't exist in my reality.

I think you perfectly understood me the first time and chose to misinterpret me, because I fail to see how a reasonable man could chose interpret words from another reasonable man to be outside realms of reality? Do you really think that it is rational to interpret someone's use of the word impossible as that person expected that it would be reasonable to ask that EUC manufactures must break the laws of physics??? Of course not. Impossible was used to send a message to them so that they must listen and start to take our safety seriously, it was not ment to create an alternative reality where it is rational to believe everybody have lost touch of reality. I want them to make it impossible for a new EUC rider that has lost his balance and stands on his toes with all his weight, or even lands from a small jump with heals and most of the foot in the front part of the pedal, or goes to fast without realizing it, to overpower the wheel in a way that causes cut-outs or blown MOSFETS or capacitors on the motherboard, and within reason, they could make it close to impossible to overpower a wheel in a way that damages a rider and/or the wheel, and, that's the sane and sensible interpretation of the word impossible in the context I used it in. Implementing better software to protect the rider and the wheel from cut-outs and the motherboard from being overloaded is not an impossible request, the solutions exists, but to you it is more important to start silly bickering over an interpretation of the word impossible that is unreasonable, than it is to unify the EUC community and demand more focus on rider safety. I have broken down impossible many times, by doing things I thought was impossible for me. Impossible is also used as a yardstick and as a challenge. If we never defeated what we thought was impossible, we would still be living in caves.

Well, if that is true, then we have lost our ability to communicate with each other, and I certainly don’t hope that has happened. If we try to understand each other and interpret what we are saying in the best, most sensical way, then more of what we are saying to each other starts to make sense. If we have rules that every word should be understood literary, then communication would stop and we could no longer talk to each other about thoughts and feelings. When someone so blindly chose to interpret a word, then I think it is ok to say that there are much more open and inclusive ways we can communicate with each other than literary interpret the word impossible as something that violates reason and therefore should be excommunicated from the dictionary because of that.

Then let me rephrase; but first allow me to point out that I find a bit silly having to defend my view from someone that very unreasonable chose to interpret the word impossible as narrowly and anal as possible. When I wrote that I wanted user error cut-outs to be impossible, I didn't literarily mean impossible, and I think most would understand that what I meant was impossible within reason and within the realms of physics, and they will have no problems understanding and interpreting the meaning of what I wrote more intelligently than litterate. Why not try to make communication a bit easier and interpret words in a more reasonable fashion, and put an end to this very anal attitude. We are as close to agreeing to the obvious point of my argument, that overleans/cut outs should be impossible within the realms of reason. Your write in the end: "Luckily there are things that an EUC can do to make overleans difficult enough" . If you didn't chose to interpret the word impossible literarily, then you would see that we agree, and then perhaps you would have wanted to write something that showed we agreed instead of this anal word bickering. What's your point? Do you want everything to be read and understood in the most litteral way possible??? Communication would break down in a world like this, something I'm sure you understand, so why do you chose to act like this?? Is it enjoyment?

Now we are getting a new wheel that is claimed to have a smarter BMS, and that’s great. Will it also totally prevent cut-outs? In light of the new V12 we were discussing the development of EUC’s and the importance of implementing basic safety features that most EUC manufactures have ignored. In that contexts you find it funny that Gotway/Veteran users complain about safety features. Do you think that is fair? Are we somehow excluded from the safety discussion? That is a very divisive statement in my book. Doesn’t it benefit the entire EUC family that even the most primitive manufactures catch up to Innotion and Kingsong? And, isn’t it about time that we stand our ground and demand that all of them eliminate all the user error over lean cut-outs, the user error charging a hot wheel that causes a fire, and also demand a service friendly durable case??

My Sherman blew it's motherboard because of some blockage right after I turned the wheel on. Protecting a motherboard from this kind of overload issue isn't a hard task to ask for, since other EUC manufacturers already have five so. Smart BMS have been around for years, and the fact that my Sherm has a simple BMS scares me. 3200WH is a lot of energy if something goes wrong, and it is very expensive to replace. Ford have had many recalls for implementing new technology too soon, while EUC manufacturers refuse to implement existing technology. A combustion engined car is also way more complicated than a EUC, so I don't think it's a fair comparison there either. Even a EUC fire can be claimed to be user error, if someone charges right after a hard ride, but I think safety features that prevents that from happening is the right approach, and I do think it is in the best interest of both user and manufacturers. Overlean cut outs should also be impossible, even though they almost always are user error. It's a silly thing that we are willing to accept fairly grim consequences because of user error when it is far more logical that we should demand safety features instead.

I don't think we'll agree, but I see and respect your points. The way I see it is that if they don't implement adequate safety features now, then someone will die and then we might get regulation or even bans. I don't care about speed being more sexy than safety, I care about the future of EUC's. One fire with casualties or one high speed cut out with severe injury or death might be enough to end the entire industry. That's the reason for my pessimism. El-Scooters have already been banned in some cities because of accidents, and there is no sane reason to why that wont happen to EUC's. One high speed cut-out on a Sherman that takes out a kindergarden-class, and suddenly EUC's are the new villain. My first gen KS18XL 2000W is safer than the newer 2200W version, and the protection it has to prevent overload cut-outs is miles a head of my 2020 Sherman, and no one of the new wheels have any safety cut-out improvements over the 2.5 year old 18XL, or am I missing something???

I really hope you're right, but if you look at the wheels that have come out in 2020, you can't say they have improved a lot. We've had bearing issues, dangerous cut outs and fires. My Sherman has less overpower safety features than my KS16S, and the BMS is still fairly primitive. More speed and more range isn't really HUGE improvements when the basic issues that cause danger to the rider hasn't seen any development. Of the people I have known who have professionally worked with table saws, I would say at least half of them have lost one or more fingers. Everybody said the same, it was user error, their own fault, like that made it ok. Now we have table saws that prevents you from cutting off your fingers, and now no one thinks it is ok to lose fingers because of user error anymore. Humans make mistakes, that’s a fact, so then I think it is fair to demand EUC’s that protect us from user errors without blowing the motherboard or cutting out.

I see your point, but to me this is not the development I need to continue to throw money at this industry. Safety features that protect me and the wheel, so no cut-outs and not the slightest possibility to blow mosfets and capacitors, is not a high demand and not that difficult to implement. If it can go 35-50 mph, then it should also be able to survive a crash at those speeds. Changing a tire shouldn’t take 3 hours. Smart BMS!! I know the V12 might be the first with a somewhat smart BMS, but when the technology already exists, why have it taken so long. How many injuries do we need and how many apartment buildings have to burn down before EUC manufactures starts to understand why large battery-packs needs a smart battery management system??? Do we have to end up with deaths before our safety are taken seriously? I don’t see the giant leap between 18XL/16X/MSX and the V11/S18/Sherman/All the 2020 Gotways. I see a few things better and a lot of things the same or slightly worse.

I’m sure they have analysed their marked when it comes to wheel size, but for me a high performing long range 16” wheel is without the slightest interest. My short-ish girlfriend prefers larger wheels now, even in the city, because of the potholes. The only instances we both still prefer the light and nimble 16” wheels that we have are when we are sightseeing in a new city and have to carry the wheels up and down stairs and on to mass transit vehicles. I have never understood the high performing 16” market. For me it is too dangerous to ride a small wheel fast, because even a small pothole can be my doom, and off-road they’re too busy and limited. Wheel size is a safety feature in the city, and almost a must if you ride off-road, in my opinion. Because of the stubborn lack of development when it comes to safety features, serviceability, durability, appalling customer service, the almost total lack of customer communication, poor build quality, and poor-quality control in all EUC manufactures, I currently think the Sherman will be my last wheel. An authoritarian business culture will never be able to adapt and develop their products in a way that more democratic cultures are a custom to, so I’m not very optimistic about the future of EUC’s. If they don’t care about my safety or the safety of my surroundings, and refuse to develop products that have the robustness and quality it needs to be reasonable 30-40 mph vehicles, I can’t justify spending money on their products anymore. It was ok when it was a new thing that I thought was going through a development, then I could live with some safety and quality issues, but when the new wheels are less safe and of poorer quality than the previous generations, I don’t see the point in continuing to support this industry.

If you could deliver a model that had options when it comes to battery size, so that you could cover the range needs of everyone from the casual city rider to the hard-core long range off-road rider, then I would be interested. A durable and service friendly case would also be most welcomed, and so would also a none suspension version of the wheel. My preference when it comes to size is between 18 – 22 inch, and anything more or less than that is not interesting to me or anyone in my family. The light and nimble V10F is still a perfect 16" wheel in my book, but we are now fully devoted to long off-road rides with our EUC's, and there size matters. I personally prefer torque over speed, but I live very well with the laziness of my Sherman. What I no longer can’t live without is its range, adjustable light and the off-road tire, so if you’re going to persuade me to spend 2-3000€ on a new wheel, you’ll have to deliver on those points. My dream wheel is basically a Sherman with more torque and a more modern safety-oriented motherboard. If that is the Inmotion V12, then I wouldn’t hesitate to buy:) For the future of EUC’s, it is important that you deliver on quality and safety.

Thank you so much! Good to know! Thank you for the info

Anyone knows which motor-cable goes where on the motherboard? I've tried google, mailing Leaper Kim, asking Marty and of course the seller, but I haven't gotten any answers.

Anyone, who knows which motor-cable goes where on the motherboard?

Then let me rephrase; The implications from a moderator that sees the community’s critique and colourful language as a valid form of reasoning from KS to why they chose to leave, is quite absurd. I’m sorry for the derail, but if the moderators here don’t see the reasons and value in opposing to a moderator forwarding a highly questionable form of reasoning from KS and use it to blame the community and individuals for being a community of human beings in all their different linguistic colour and form, then I fail to see a reason to be a part of it. Now I’m done:)