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KS16-S first impressions


Christoph Zens
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43 minutes ago, Christoph Zens said:

...

 Starting from a standstill, the motor sometimes produces a strange (electrical) grinding noise for the first meter or two, like if the controller is not confident in getting the wheel going from any rotation angle. I never had this on the NB1, starts are always very smooth.

...

We had once an official statement from a gotway representative here in regard to "rattling" noise of a gotway wheel at slow speeds saying that this comes from the overcurrent protection kicking in.

Could be something similar here with your Kingsong?

 

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3 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:
  • I found that tire pressure was way too low and after inflating to around 4 bar, which is my standard on the NB1, the wheel became much more agile (except for the weird balance thing above). Inflating the tire at the gas station with standard tools is very easy since the valve is accessible, as opposed to the NB1. This has the added advantage that one can actually place a dust protection cap on the valve, which is not really possible on the NB1 (I always ride with 'exposed' valve which can't be good).

On mine, the valve was tightly against the motor sideplate, I had to use nose pliers to get it out a bit to get the compressor vent there. But when I went to fill it for the second time (rising pressure from around 3bar to 4bar), I didn't need to do it. The used KS16B I bought came with an extension tube, but I don't know if I'll ever need it. Nice to have though, just in case.

 

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  • Software: While also the Ninebot App has its problems, software support seems to be lagging behind with KingSong. Basic things like a properly published Android app which is properly requesting the required permissions so that it actually works, or correct reporting of negative (braking) currents, well.... I's not really that important and I would not base my buying decision on these things, but still it would be a plus if KingSong could improve in these areas in the future.

The thing with Android 6+ & location is partially Googles/Android's fault... I checked the manifest quickly earlier, and it does contain the coarse- & fine-location permissions, but... Android 6+ doesn't use them! Apparently, things changed in Android 6 so that the app-writer must add a piece of code to ask for the permission AT RUNTIME, or the end-user has to add the permission manually (like people here do)   https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40142331/how-to-request-location-permission-on-android-6

In the manifest file I added permissions coarse and fine, and when I run on device with Android 6, nothing happens! I try everything but no way to get location updates...

You need to actually request the Location permission at runtime

Yeah, nice that security & things move on, but they break backwards compatibility at the same time, quickly glancing through this: https://inthecheesefactory.com/blog/things-you-need-to-know-about-android-m-permission-developer-edition/en

Here we go:

In Android 6.0 Marshmallow, application will not be granted any permission at installation time. Instead, application has to ask user for a permission one-by-one at runtime.

While the above states that no permissions are granted at installation, apparently certain "basic" permissions will be granted automatically (without asking from the user) if they're in the manifest. Which just makes it all the more confusing for the poor developer ;)

Please note that permission request dialog shown above will not launch automatically. Developer has to call for it manually. In the case that developer try to call some function that requires a permission which user has not granted yet, the function will suddenly throw an Exception which will lead to the application crashing.

Well, I'd say may lead to application crashing, if there's no exception handling in place, but even if there is, it's still likely not going to work as intended unless the exception handler is what brings up the permission request dialog. Why can't the OS automatically ask for the permission on the first call, if it hasn't been asked yet and hasn't been denied before, instead of just throwing an exception? :P There is a note later on in the article though that maybe this could be solved simply by building the app with a lower target SDK:

If the application's targetSdkVersion is set to less than 23. It will be assumed that application is not tested with new permission system yet and will switch to the same old behavior: user has to accept every single permission at install time and they will be all granted once installed !

 

Edited by esaj
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3 hours ago, Chriull said:

We had once an official statement from a gotway representative here in regard to "rattling" noise of a gotway wheel at slow speeds saying that this comes from the overcurrent protection kicking in.

Could be something similar here with your Kingsong?

Could entirely be the case. I guess the motors are not that different, and a 3kW motor can draw a significant amount of current at zero speed. Better it gets a little 'uneven' for a second or two, than to blow a MOSFET (or fuse ;)).

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4 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

Balance: This thing is so top heavy, it's a challenge for me to control lean angle in tight turns such that the desired angle is reached at the right time and the right speed (I mean rate of lean angle change, which should be soft but not lag behind what I need to stay balanced or be jerky and uncontrolled). I feel noticeable inertia getting the angle change going, as well as stopping it at the right angle. It's like one has to work to get the mass of the battery moving and stopping again. It feels weird, but I expect to get used to it soon. Similar to what I felt when I switched from a 125cc Scooter to a 1200cc Sportster.

Hi there! I just posted my first impressions in the "Reviews" section almost in parallell to you :-) I also noticed the stability issue, but I thought it was due to the tire being narrower than on my previous wheel, a Xima Lhotz. but you are probably right that it is a weight distribution thing. The foot pedals are angled a bit upwards as well, so I get the impression that I am actually riding higher up on the KS16S than I was on the Xima.

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1 minute ago, Dr Mick said:

Hi there! I just posted my first impressions in the "Reviews" section almost in parallell to you :-) I also noticed the stability issue, but I thought it was due to the tire being narrower than on my previous wheel, a Xima Lhotz. but you are probably right that it is a weight distribution thing. The foot pedals are angled a bit upwards as well, so I get the impression that I am actually riding higher up on the KS16S than I was on the Xima.

Hi, let me head over to the review section then...

The balance thing can be adjusted to. After doing figure 8 for half an hour at some steady 15 kph speed, I am starting to get the hang of it. Even though there is kind of a resistance leaning the wheel to its side, one has to refrain from over-steering and just keep pushing it gently into its lean. It does follow, and if not pushed to hastily, it is easier to stop and maintain the correct angle during the turn. It's just that I was kind of nervous, I guess. I also found that playing some music through the wheel during the training greatly helps to relax and stay in control. I'm now doing very short sways left and right following the beats of the music. It helps to keep the timing. While doing this, I slow down the forward movement to almost stand still. Great way to gain better control of this new machine, did this on the NB1 as well while learning.

About the pedal height, that's also a point I need to adjust to. Ground clearance. While I got this down on my NB1 to the point where I can turn with the pedal almost but not really touching the ground, I'm still somewhat 'blind' on this new wheel. Sometimes my toes, hanging over the pedals, will touch down during the turn. Not good.

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As I still wait for my KS16S to arrive in around 10 more days... -  can You happy users of KS16S please check how stable the BT connection is on KS16S with Android ?

On my KS16  and Android 5.1 Galaxy Note 4 phone - with firmware V1.23 the wheel was nicely reconnecting to the original KS app and also (even better) to the WheelLlog nicely without any problems, connection was super steady, even after switching the wheel off or getting with phone out of range - connection was restoring itself well. 

In Firmware V1.25 - it is not so nice any more - original application must be started, it must "request" wheel to respond, then when KS app connects, then I can start WheelLog, it connects as the second application well, then I can switch the KS app off, and WhelLog stays connected.  .... as long as I do not switch the wheel off (even for few seconds) as if I do, the whole initiation procedure must be repeated.   (KS application needs to be manually pushed to initiate connection by pressing SCAN) to connect.. 

I tried to ask Kingsong why it was changed - no clear answer received but from the discussion it looks like this was related to the safety of the connection....

Edited by Lukasz
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1 hour ago, Lukasz said:

In Firmware V1.25 - it is not so nice any more - original application must be started, it must "request" wheel to respond, then when KS app connects, then I can start WheelLog, it connects as the second application well, then I can switch the KS app off, and WhelLog stays connected.  .... as long as I do not switch the wheel off (even for few seconds) as if I do, the whole initiation procedure must be repeated.   (KS application needs to be manually pushed to initiate connection by pressing SCAN) to connect.. 

I can confirm this behavior. WheelLog can't connect without the help of the original app. However, I think it would be possible to adjust the WheelLog app to do the same the KingSong app does, so that connection of stand alone WheelLog works again. Audio BT connection restores itself nicely whenever the wheel is turned on and the phone is within reach.

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1 hour ago, Christoph Zens said:

I can confirm this behavior. WheelLog can't connect without the help of the original app. However, I think it would be possible to adjust the WheelLog app to do the same the KingSong app does, so that connection of stand alone WheelLog works again. Audio BT connection restores itself nicely whenever the wheel is turned on and the phone is within reach.

I tried before to contact the author ('kevin@cooper.uk.com') in the subject o making the app working on android 4.22 (SM-V700 android Samsung watch),  however he never responded. He used to be present on this forum but I have heard that he abandoned the project (or decided that it as finished product)  AFAIK source code of the WheelLog is available - https://github.com/JumpMaster/WheelLogAndroid - however - myself I am lacking the knowledge to touch this subject....  Maybe You / Esaj can have a look on this ? (I have no idea how hard it can be - I wish I could, but I have zero experience with coding)  on the other hand - I had some contact with KingSong directly and they look for help with the application issue...   they struggle with the new version but it is FAR from perfect...

I use now WheelLog with pebble, and when finally connected pebble is very well visible in the sun / daylight and also at night...  and as the screen does not need so much power - this is better solution overall....     and as Pebble has 4 buttons - middle one works as the warning horn/beep...

BTW - this is slightly off - topic, but I have reached 5 devices connected in PAN (Personal Area Network)  and working simultaneously over the BT well..

Galaxy NOTE 4 + SM-V700 watch + MW1 Sony headset + Pebble Time + KS16   

It all works well - while riding the KS16, I am talking over the BT headset during phonecalls, SM-V700 displays the messages or can initiate calls, and pebble shows speed / temp / battery without glitches.... perfect!!! 

Edited by Lukasz
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17 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

Balance: This thing is so top heavy, it's a challenge for me to control lean angle in tight turns such that the desired angle is reached at the right time and the right speed (I mean rate of lean angle change, which should be soft but not lag behind what I need to stay balanced or be jerky and uncontrolled). I feel noticeable inertia getting the angle change going, as well as stopping it at the right angle. It's like one has to work to get the mass of the battery moving and stopping again. It feels weird, but I expect to get used to it soon. Similar to what I felt when I switched from a 125cc Scooter to a 1200cc Sportster.

I'm sure it is only a matter of getting used to it, as you wrote.

I don't know other wheels, because I started riding on the KS16B a year ago, but am able to tilt it and enter curves both at slow and high speeds without any uncertainty.

But I noticed a comparable problem when I test drove a V5F+ and a KS18 for a few minutes, I was unable to drive these wheels perfectly, and I was convinced it is also just because of the different size and weight.

BTW, today I'll be in Vienna, at 18h30 starting at the parking lot behind exit Kaisermühlen of Donauuferautobahn, at N 48° 13,227'  O 16° 25,534', for a 30 minute ride or so (must return to Styria then).

If you have time, let us go together (I can't enter the forum until then, so will just look if I spot another crazy guy on a wheel :) when I circle for a few minutes, and leave then).

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15 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

After doing figure 8 for half an hour at some steady 15 kph speed, I am starting to get the hang of it.

I guess you are right - I will just have to put in some serious practice time!!

Last night I did a short ride on my Xima to compare, and I almost felt like I was on a Segway...

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15 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

Sometimes my toes, hanging over the pedals, will touch down during the turn. Not good.

Just out of curiosity - what riding mode are you using? If you are on "player" mode when doing that, you must do some incredibly serious leaning, at least if your toes are pointing in the forward direction!

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2 hours ago, Dr Mick said:

Just out of curiosity - what riding mode are you using? If you are on "player" mode when doing that, you must do some incredibly serious leaning, at least if your toes are pointing in the forward direction!

I tried riding mode first, but switched back to player mode after a few attempts, because that's what I'm used to from the NB1. I thought let's do one thing at a time, first get used to the new wheel in a mode I'm used to, then come back and try other modes.

Foot position is slightly V style, such that the effective width of the pedals at the front end is slightly extended by the foot. So the shoe will touch down first, before the pedal edge touches the ground. I use this position as a safety measure as long as I'm not used to the ground clearance I have available. I don't want the pedals touch down just yet.

Driving in the garage, the tire makes the typical rubber-against-ground squeaking noise during the turns, but it doesn't slip. I'm very satisfied with the performance of this tire over all, but it needs its 4 bars for this kind of riding. I'm used to leaning through turns from riding motor cycles for 25 years, so it feels natural (at least once I am able to properly control the lean angle again).

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4 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

I'm sure it is only a matter of getting used to it, as you wrote.

I don't know other wheels, because I started riding on the KS16B a year ago, but am able to tilt it and enter curves both at slow and high speeds without any uncertainty.

But I noticed a comparable problem when I test drove a V5F+ and a KS18 for a few minutes, I was unable to drive these wheels perfectly, and I was convinced it is also just because of the different size and weight.

BTW, today I'll be in Vienna, at 18h30 starting at the parking lot behind exit Kaisermühlen of Donauuferautobahn, at N 48° 13,227'  O 16° 25,534', for a 30 minute ride or so (must return to Styria then).

If you have time, let us go together (I can't enter the forum until then, so will just look if I spot another crazy guy on a wheel :) when I circle for a few minutes, and leave then).

Great idea, but I will still be in a meeting at that time, and the office is in 1170. Impossible to make it, unfortunately :(

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52 minutes ago, Christoph Zens said:

Foot position is slightly V style, such that the effective width of the pedals at the front end is slightly extended by the foot.

I am still amazed that you manage to touch the ground with your toes when in "player" mode. I guess I need a lot of practice to reach that level!

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2 hours ago, Dr Mick said:

I am still amazed that you manage to touch the ground with your toes when in "player" mode. I guess I need a lot of practice to reach that level!

As you gain more confidence and start going through turns faster, you will automatically lean more into the turn.

I found that it takes a turning radius of around 3 meters, going at a speed of 12 kph to result in a lean angle where my feet touch the ground during the turn. That's on the KS16. I am not sure if I could do the same on the NB1. My feeling is that it has less clearance and would already touch down earlier.

Mind that I would not drive like that on uncertain terrain. It's possible only in a perfectly controlled environment like a garage with a flat, dry, non-slippery surface and full visibility through the entire turn. Outside, where you may suddenly have to deal with gravel or other adverse conditions, it's better to play safe and slow down when approaching a tight turn.

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3 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

I found that it takes a turning radius of around 3 meters, going at a speed of 12 kph to result in a lean angle where my feet touch the ground during the turn. That's on the KS16.

Any chance you could do a video of that?

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19 hours ago, Lukasz said:

On my KS16  and Android 5.1 Galaxy Note 4 phone - with firmware V1.23 the wheel was nicely reconnecting to the original KS app and also (even better) to the WheelLlog nicely without any problems, connection was super steady, even after switching the wheel off or getting with phone out of range - connection was restoring itself well. 

In Firmware V1.25 - it is not so nice any more - original application must be started, it must "request" wheel to respond, then when KS app connects, then I can start WheelLog, it connects as the second application well, then I can switch the KS app off, and WhelLog stays connected.  .... as long as I do not switch the wheel off (even for few seconds) as if I do, the whole initiation procedure must be repeated.   (KS application needs to be manually pushed to initiate connection by pressing SCAN) to connect.. 

I tried to ask Kingsong why it was changed - no clear answer received but from the discussion it looks like this was related to the safety of the connection....

 

18 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

I can confirm this behavior. WheelLog can't connect without the help of the original app. However, I think it would be possible to adjust the WheelLog app to do the same the KingSong app does, so that connection of stand alone WheelLog works again. Audio BT connection restores itself nicely whenever the wheel is turned on and the phone is within reach.

I could try to figure out what's the matter with the handshaking at some point, but I haven't touched Android-development since making Wheelemetrics, and never worked with BT LE, plus I've got a ton of other on-going projects eating away my spare time, so I can't make any promises if or when that could happen.

 

17 hours ago, Lukasz said:

I tried before to contact the author ('kevin@cooper.uk.com') in the subject o making the app working on android 4.22 (SM-V700 android Samsung watch),  however he never responded. He used to be present on this forum but I have heard that he abandoned the project (or decided that it as finished product)  AFAIK source code of the WheelLog is available - https://github.com/JumpMaster/WheelLogAndroid - however - myself I am lacking the knowledge to touch this subject....  Maybe You / Esaj can have a look on this ? (I have no idea how hard it can be - I wish I could, but I have zero experience with coding)  on the other hand - I had some contact with KingSong directly and they look for help with the application issue...   they struggle with the new version but it is FAR from perfect...

Does Android 4.22 (4.2.2?) even support Bluetooth 4.0 / LE? Also I have no way of testing it with anything older than 4.4.2 tablet, and don't know if the watches use some proprietary/3rd party stuff to make BT LE work on older Androids, or require the GUI to be made separately for them... So this is probably something I cannot help with.

 

Edited by esaj
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On 31.5.2017 at 4:46 PM, Dr Mick said:

Any chance you could do a video of that?

Turns out to be really difficult. So far the results are not usable, but I'll try once more. Using slow motion recording with my smartphone camera, I got at least a small sequence where the touch down can be seen. A drive-by at close distance and 12kph speed is too much for a smartphone...

Lean.PNG

Edited by Christoph Zens
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Small update regarding power: Coming from a 500W NB1, the power of the KS16-S is very impressive. I did some power-brake exercise today and have to say I'm very pleased with the performance compared to my old wheel. On the NB1, I always felt like a train. The KS16 in comparison feels like a sports car. On the garage floor, the wheel is at the edge of slipping during the brake. It certainly squeaks, but I think I can also feel it slip a little (not to the extent that one would lose control though).

I also did some simulated starts under heavy load, since there were concerns that some KS wheels would have problems with startup under certain conditions. To do this without a steep hill, I hold on to a wall (facing the wall) and start to push the wheel to go forward while pressing against the wall to give it a lot of resistance. That should be the worst case for the motor driver. However, I did not notice any problems. I can hear the grinding noise mentioned in my first post, so that could be when current limitation kicks in, but the wheel starts to move forward smoothly despite the resistance, and it does not suddenly cut out or anything like that.

Needless to say, the fuses are still OK after power braking. Very happy with this wheel so far! Oh, and after the second day, I completely got used to the new sound. Really not a problem at all. So far, I logged 25km in training. Total mileage and trip odometer work reliably for me. No matter in which order I start/stop wheel and application.

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On 31.5.2017 at 10:25 AM, Christoph Zens said:

Great idea, but I will still be in a meeting at that time, and the office is in 1170. Impossible to make it, unfortunately :(

No problem, I was a little bit late (10 minutes), and because I didn't see any other onewheeled guys or gals, I proceeded to Donauinsel, Prater and Tonis Inselgrill then before returning to Styria. Maybe at another occasion.

On 31.5.2017 at 1:34 PM, Christoph Zens said:

I found that it takes a turning radius of around 3 meters, going at a speed of 12 kph to result in a lean angle where my feet touch the ground during the turn. That's on the KS16. I am not sure if I could do the same on the NB1.

I mentioned somewhere in the forum, that I found out after some 100 kilometers on the wheel, that for me the wheel is too level for comfortable driving.

I tried then to calibrate it in a way, that the footpads point slightly upward in front (it can be done with the App). For me the best angle was 3 degrees, I tried several angles between 1 and 6 degrees. When I drove with the original 0 degree setting, I also had the feeling that my toes are to close to the floor, especially in sharp curves or offroad.

It is worth to try a different calibration and then keeping it. I'm checking it from time to time, but the wheel remembers it correctly and is still at 3 degrees upward pointing.

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2 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

I mentioned somewhere in the forum, that I found out after some 100 kilometers on the wheel, that for me the wheel is too level for comfortable driving.

I tried then to calibrate it in a way, that the footpads point slightly upward in front (it can be done with the App). For me the best angle was 3 degrees, I tried several angles between 1 and 6 degrees. When I drove with the original 0 degree setting, I also had the feeling that my toes are to close to the floor, especially in sharp curves or offroad.

It is worth to try a different calibration and then keeping it. I'm checking it from time to time, but the wheel remembers it correctly and is still at 3 degrees upward pointing.

Oh yes, I remeber this post. I should try that too, maybe also after 100km or so. Once I'm sure that I basically adapted to the wheel the way it is. The tire seems pretty good and the wheel could take much more of a lean than is currently possible for me. On the other hand, I want to make sure I'm not pressing the wheel forward too hard. I'm not used to this kind of power yet, after riding a 500W wheel for 2 years. 3 degrees upward as the neutral position would make it much easier to push the wheel more than I would like, perhaps. I'll do some experiments later, for sure. Is there a way to reset this back to factory defaults? The Ninebot had a hidden sequence of lifting the unit up and let it spin until it reaches cut off speed, then turn it off and repeat for a few times. This would reset everything to factory default. :wacko:

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Update after some real world experience:

  • Range: I did two rides. First one was on tarmac, almost no elevation changes, 50km (KS app) / 45km (GPS http://www.gpsies.com/map.do?fileId=ovalwomlzvpujtfp). After this ride, there was 50% battery left and the app showed a remaining mileage of 30km, so that would add up to 80km total under these most optimal conditions. Rider weight is around 80kg. Second ride was off road for the most part, dirt, stone, roots, muddy pot holes, some insanely steep inclines, 400m elevation change, 20km total. This ride was done in 2 hours and the wheel showed 75% battery and 40km available range at the end. So that would amount to 60km range under difficult conditions. I think these results closely match the data claimed by KingSong.
  • Off road performance: The off road ride got the wheel to 50°C and the fan turned on for the first time. You can't hear it while riding, it's really quiet. Only humming a little when the wheel is stopped. First thing I learned when going from Tarmac to off road: You can't use Player Mode. Off road needs Riding Mode, otherwise it's impossible to get this wheel going up a 20% incline of washed-out stones and roots. Luckily, riding mode can be changed through the app while riding (unlike the NB1, where you have to turn the wheel off and back on to activate the new setting). So it's really not a problem to switch riding modes as required by the terrain during the ride. Next thing I noticed: This wheel is really stable in off road conditions. I compare it to another 16 inch wheel (NB1 E+), not a 14 inch. Given the same tire dimensions (my NB1 has the same tire width as well), I was amazed by the big difference. This wheel goes over uneven dirt and small roots much easier than the NB1.
  • Climbing: The only thing I didn't like was the fact that I still don't know how to actually leverage the full potential of this wheel when it's getting really steep. Even on tarmac and still on riding mode, going up a steep road, I can't push the wheel to more than 1kW power output. There should be plenty of power left, but I don't know how to push further without falling off the wheel. The pedals just seem too short, or I am not heavy enough, or don't know how to properly lean forward on this wheel. Maybe I need to play with the level calibration, as @HermanTheGerman suggested. On the same road, I can easily push the NB1 to its 1.5kW limit, at which point is reaches somewhere around 7kph speed. I expected the KS16 to hit at least 2.5kW and go up this hill much faster, but no success so far. I guess I need more training regarding climbing techniques...
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