Cloud Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 So I've gotten sick of my KS14" overheating every 10 minutes in the summer, and decided to do something about it. i've made holes in the top of the casing - 5 on each side. Then i took a heat sink from an old control board, cut it to fit the top of the unit without sticking out, bent it slightly to follow the curvature of the top, put some double adhesive tape on the perimeter and placed on top. Hopefully the hot air coming up from the control board will heat up the exterior heat sink, which in turn should dissipate some heat into the atmosphere. Hopefully the tape on perimeter will protect from water infiltration in case of rain, at least this was the goal. the initial testing results looks very good. I rode aggressively this evening for 10-15 minutes and the highest the temperature went up to was 49 degress celcius. The real test will be in the heat tomorrow, and the real real real test - monday morning when i go to the office and ride for an hour. My wheel always overheats riding to work, first time in about 30 minutes and then every 5 -10 minutes thereafter. We shall see, but i feel very optimistic. See attached pics h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Good work but this has to been done at Kingsong while testing the prototypes. Good luck that you fixed this issue. Others would like to participate from your modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 11 minutes ago, OliverH said: Good work but this has to been done at Kingsong while testing the prototypes. Good luck that you fixed this issue. Others would like to participate from your modification. Thanks. I just did another test. I rocked back and forth while holding on to something, this allowed me to go back and forth by a couple of feet only and fast. The temperature quickly went up to 67 at which pojnt i stopped rocking and just started riding. The temperature started slowly going down. The top plate and the plastic were hardly warm even though the temperature was reading 67. this is simply because the air above the control board had no time to heat up. The wheel would have overheated if i had continued rocking back and forth, and understandinly so - the holes can only become effective when the air above the control board has been fully heated. So i think this mod will be effective during long rides where the temperature goes up slowly and the top of the casing eventually gets very hot.. I will continue testing on a longer ride tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 Another test today. Unfortunately it wasnt very hot out today but i took a longer ride and tried to ride as aggressive as i could. I was dancing to the music coming out of the wheel which normally causes it to overheat the fastest. I was able to get the temperature up to 64 degrees, but most of the time it fluctuated between 59-62. I couldnt make it overheat - my feet would get a cramp before enough heat would build up in the wheel. And let me tell ya - if i cant make it overheat, noone can. So far i am quite pleased with the results. I think this mod will allow the wheel to take the edge off when the temperature is above 60 and approaches 70. If this doesnt work, i can play with the way the top plate attaches to the casing by allowing some vent openings on one or 2 sides - there is a lot that can be done so that the oncoming air floor creat some convection. Water ingress can still be stopped, i have an idea how to improve the airflow without risking the water ingress in case of rain. Will keep everyone posted. If the weather breaks out tomorrow, that will be a good test when riding to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Nice job on the mod and glad to see it doesn't overheat any more. Is that VHB tape you're using to secure the metal plate to the top there? If it is, be careful as the bond really matures and is really hard to remove after a while. I used two strips to attach some metal power supply boxes for LED lighting under some cabinets at work, and a few years later when I tried to remove them the tape ended up ripping the wooden laminate veneer off the cabinet! They didn't look that sticky when I first applied them, but wow they get stuck on there really well! If you ever want to remove that plate in the future I'd use small segments in the corners only... Thinking about roof ventilation if there was a small version of this: http://m.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-50-in-NFA-Aluminum-Square-Top-Roof-Static-Vent-in-Weatherwood-R50AWW/202067900 That would let more air flow in while keeping rain out... Got a 3D printer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 17 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: Nice job on the mod and glad to see it doesn't overheat any more. Is that VHB tape you're using to secure the metal plate to the top there? If it is, be careful as the bond really matures and is really hard to remove after a while. I used two strips to attach some metal power supply boxes for LED lighting under some cabinets at work, and a few years later when I tried to remove them the tape ended up ripping the wooden laminate veneer off the cabinet! They didn't look that sticky when I first applied them, but wow they get stuck on there really well! If you ever want to remove that plate in the future I'd use small segments in the corners only... Thanks! The final test is yet to come, hooefully tomorrow morning i will find out more certainly. If i can lower the temperature by just a few degrees that would be enough to keep the unit from overheating or to sufficiently extend the time it takes for it to overheat. The tape was 3m double sided adhesive acrylic foam tape, it is strong indeed even after a few minutes but i dont think it will be so strong as to tear the plastic apart, but who knows. I will be removing it soon to make adjustments to the attachment. Want to put some silicone around the openings so that if water got in under the metal plate somehow it will avoid getting into the holes. I cant use small segments as the idea is to seal the entire perimeter of the metal plate to prevent the rain water from getting in, but perhaps i can use a weaker tape if something. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Maybe it's a different version of the 3M tape that you're using so you might be fine. I use the 3M VHB tape which they use to attach rear spoliers onto cars and metal panels onto sides of buildings so it's the super strong stuff. Very handy tape, but I've learned not to under-estimate it. It looks very similar to yours. It has a red backing that you peel off before using. I think there is also white backing, but it's labelled VHB on it. Kinda like this: http://m.ebay.com/itm/3M-VHB-5925-Double-sided-Acrylic-Foam-Tape-2m-Length-Thinner-than-5952-/181467038204 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: Maybe it's a different version of the 3M tape that you're using so you might be fine. I use the 3M VHB tape which they use to attach rear spoliers onto cars and metal panels onto sides of buildings so it's the super strong stuff. Very handy tape, but I've learned not to under-estimate it. It looks very similar to yours. It has a red backing that you peel off before using. Hmmm mine has a red backing too...it says core series XQ i tired to remove it by pulling on it before and it came off fine. But if i try ti just lift the late verically, then the entire surface of the tape is holding it and its really hard. I dont think this will be a problem though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 http://www.ebay.com/itm/391284435480? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Hmm likely different stuff. I guess if it gives you trouble in the future a heatgun to warm the plate up might help loosen it. If anyone's curious here's a video about the VHB version: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 On 5.6.2016 at 7:47 AM, Cloud said: So I've gotten sick of my KS14" overheating every 10 minutes in the summer, and decided to do something about it. i've made holes in the top of the casing - 5 on each side. Then i took a heat sink from an old control board, cut it to fit the top of the unit without sticking out, bent it slightly to follow the curvature of the top, put some double adhesive tape on the perimeter and placed on top. Hopefully the hot air coming up from the control board will heat up the exterior heat sink, which in turn should dissipate some heat into the atmosphere. Hopefully the tape on perimeter will protect from water infiltration in case of rain, at least this was the goal. the initial testing results looks very good. I rode aggressively this evening for 10-15 minutes and the highest the temperature went up to was 49 degress celcius. The real test will be in the heat tomorrow, and the real real real test - monday morning when i go to the office and ride for an hour. My wheel always overheats riding to work, first time in about 30 minutes and then every 5 -10 minutes thereafter. We shall see, but i feel very optimistic. See attached pics h Any news from your trip to the office? Still no problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 14 hours ago, OliverH said: Any news from your trip to the office? Still no problem? Going to work in the morning was ok as it wasnt that hot early. Temp went up to 65 but didnt overheat. However going back home in the evening the wheel overheated a few times. I think it is still better by a few degrees than it was before, but not good enough. It takes too long to warm up the heat sink on top and the wheel overheats before it can get the benefit of the additional heat shedding. I need to make some modifications and add some air circulation. I ran out of adhesive tape and ordered more. When i receive i will try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 56 minutes ago, Cloud said: Going to work in the morning was ok as it wasnt that hot early. Temp went up to 65 but didnt overheat. However going back home in the evening the wheel overheated a few times. I think it is still better by a few degrees than it was before, but not good enough. It takes too long to warm up the heat sink on top and the wheel overheats before it can get the benefit of the additional heat shedding. I need to make some modifications and add some air circulation. I ran out of adhesive tape and ordered more. When i receive i will try again Are you using conductive tape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Cloud said: Going to work in the morning was ok as it wasnt that hot early. Temp went up to 65 but didnt overheat. However going back home in the evening the wheel overheated a few times. I think it is still better by a few degrees than it was before, but not good enough. It takes too long to warm up the heat sink on top and the wheel overheats before it can get the benefit of the additional heat shedding. I need to make some modifications and add some air circulation. I ran out of adhesive tape and ordered more. When i receive i will try again Bummer! Tweak it more. I thought you had luck and managed to solve this issue. Give it a new try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I think the MOSFET heat sink to air to metal plate conduction may not be enough. The metal plate conducts some heat outside better than the plastic housing, but it's like cooling a CPU that only has a heat sink and no fan by using a metal computer case with no vents. The air is stagnant and is not a great conductor. If a miniature roof vent (with or without fan underneath) could be installed to allow some wind to help draw the hot air out that might be better, but ideally it would be nice to reposition the mosfets underneath the metal plate and have a wire connector to join them to the control board. That way you can keep the interior sealed up while the heat is directly conducted to the top plate and exterior cooling air. @Polpus did a really nice mod with his generic wheel by talking the mosfets off the control board to reposition them elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Look at the Gotway ACM. They managed with the latest passive heatsink to handle 60-70A (if you calculate with undervoltage and 3-3.5 KW). That's way more the KS14 or KS16 (with fan) consumes. it is possible to run with passive cooling only if it's well designed and tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 6 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Are you using conductive tape? No, the tape is just for attachment 4 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: I think the MOSFET heat sink to air to metal plate conduction may not be enough. The metal plate conducts some heat outside better than the plastic housing, but it's like cooling a CPU that only has a heat sink and no fan by using a metal computer case with no vents. The air is stagnant and is not a great conductor. If a miniature roof vent (with or without fan underneath) could be installed to allow some wind to help draw the hot air out that might be better, but ideally it would be nice to reposition the mosfets underneath the metal plate and have a wire connector to join them to the control board. That way you can keep the interior sealed up while the heat is directly conducted to the top plate and exterior cooling air. @Polpus did a really nice mod with his generic wheel by talking the mosfets off the control board to reposition them elsewhere. Yes exactly. Air doesnt conduct heat very well unkess there is convection. I was trying, alternatively, to use the oncoming air by using a funnel connected to a flexible plastic tubing inserted into a hole in the casing, but when modelled that and used a fan to i itate the oncoming air, the funnel size had to be huge, or the tube diameter had to be bigger than id like to create any kind of flow on the other end. Not sure i want to go as far as to move the mosfets. 3 hours ago, OliverH said: Look at the Gotway ACM. They managed with the latest passive heatsink to handle 60-70A (if you calculate with undervoltage and 3-3.5 KW). That's way more the KS14 or KS16 (with fan) consumes. it is possible to run with passive cooling only if it's well designed and tested. Yeah, this is just a fix, it needs to be designed at the factory to either have a fan or a different heatsink configuration. If i could connect the internal heat sink with external via metal, this woukd have made the difference. Transferring heat thru air is not very effective 5 hours ago, OliverH said: Bummer! Tweak it more. I thought you had luck and managed to solve this issue. Give it a new try. Yeah, i thought so to. Well, i think it did get a little better. Im gonna try to open up a little slit in the front under the metal plate so air can come in, hooe this creates a bit of air exchange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Keep at it! It's difficult when the mosfets are stuck in one position and married to the control board to get that heat up and out of there. I wonder if this flat cool pipe might do the trick. http://www.amecthermasol.co.uk/product412.php?url=1&page=282&ty=4&gr=30&fg=148 references http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63014 http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67828 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Heat pipe or water cooling? All available in the PC business. What's the temperature in this days where you live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 11, 2016 Author Share Posted June 11, 2016 On 7 июня 2016 г. at 10:18 AM, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: Keep at it! It's difficult when the mosfets are stuck in one position and married to the control board to get that heat up and out of there. I wonder if this flat cool pipe might do the trick. http://www.amecthermasol.co.uk/product412.php?url=1&page=282&ty=4&gr=30&fg=148 references http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63014 http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67828 Very interesting. I will look into it. Not sure there is much room to incorporate this, but connecting the two heat sinks would be nice. On 7 июня 2016 г. at 11:15 AM, OliverH said: Heat pipe or water cooling? All available in the PC business. What's the temperature in this days where you live? 70s-80s, could be low 90s sometimes overall, it got better with the mod. I do get overheating but nit as much as before. I will definitely be trying to improve, first by using the oncoming air flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 Today was a pretty hot day, so i just removed the metal plate on top and rode with holes in the casing. Good results, the wheel didnt overheat and the temperatures did not exceed 60. I think i will ride like this for a while until i find a more permanent solution. Temporarily the holes can be covered with electrical tape in case of rain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I wonder if you could install a plate that has adjustable vent flaps kind of like on a heat register cover. Adjusting the vents fins up would help direct air down into the control board area. If it rains you can close it up as it likely will be cooler anyways so it can stay shut. Got any spare car parts? http://m.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-round-heater-vent-to-suit-new-Kenworth-Custom-Car-Hotrod-Show-car-Ute-/331810425703 http://www.ebay.com/itm/201561653520 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 21 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: I wonder if you could install a plate that has adjustable vent flaps kind of like on a heat register cover. Adjusting the vents fins up would help direct air down into the control board area. If it rains you can close it up as it likely will be cooler anyways so it can stay shut. Got any spare car parts? http://m.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-round-heater-vent-to-suit-new-Kenworth-Custom-Car-Hotrod-Show-car-Ute-/331810425703 I thought about that. I might go that route and install something similrar that will direct the air into the control board compartment. In terms of closing it in case of rain, i dont think it will seal the opening well. But the concept is good to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Muller vent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardmech Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 You can buy those flexible heatpipes on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAT-PIPE-ULTRA-FLAT-1TX100L-MM-Part-AMEC-THERMASOL-MHP-1220A-100A-/271932773766?hash=item3f5074d586:g:NEcAAOxyBjBTPxmi I would suggest bending it in a a U shape and epoxy it to the KS heatsink, then cover the opening so it's sealed with the other side of the U shape exposed. Finally mount a low profile server CPU cooler on the exposed part of the U shaped heat pipe, it won't have enough surface area by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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