Serious question: Are we pushing our luck with these things?

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

Quite possible, but without a proper measurement it remains to be an hypothesis.

Hypothesis indeed but it doesn't take Einstein to understand that a lot of people have fallen on EUC's. Probably everyone at some point. That, by definition, makes them dangerous. Whether you suffer injuries from that fall, whether 1mph or 60mph, well you're in the hands of the Gods. Marty's low speed breakage being a prime example of bad luck.

Again though, I seem to have entered into another 'are EUC's dangerous' discussion which I really shouldn't have done because I rarely get support on my viewpoint. So with the greatest respect I'll bow out of this now 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Then again English isn't my native language.

I'd be surprised if these words didn't exist in your language tough. The main distinction between possibility and probability is that the latter can have a number (between zero and one) attached to it, while the former has only two possible values, possible or not possible.

[Funky]

14 minutes ago, Mono said:

I'd be surprised if these words didn't exist in your language tough. The main distinction between possibility and probability is that the latter can have a number (between zero and one) attached to it, while the former has only two possible values, possible or not possible.

And again in EUC case both stand one side. Probability of crashing can't be taken into numbers as each individual rider is different and place we ride also are different.. So the danger of crashing can go from 1 to 100. For most i can imagine it being under 50. But for some those dangers are higher.

But possibility of crash is certain. That you can't argue at all. As have been said already - we all have crashed. In one way or another.

[Mono]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Hypothesis indeed but it doesn't take Einstein to understand that a lot of people have fallen on EUC's.

The same is true for bicycles: a lot of people have fallen riding them, however there is no relation to Einstein in this case.

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Probably everyone at some point. That, by definition, makes them dangerous.

That is not the usage of the word dangerous I am aware of, so we are probably speaking past each other.

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Whether you suffer injuries from that fall, whether 1mph or 60mph, well you're in the hands of the Gods.

Only if they exist though 

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Marty's low speed breakage being a prime example of bad luck.

I don't know, I can't possibly know, very few people, if any, have enough information to know, AFAICS, whether or how this injury could have been prevented. I would not be surprise either way.

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Again though, I seem to have entered into another 'are EUC's dangerous' discussion which I really shouldn't have done because I rarely get support on my viewpoint. So with the greatest respect I'll bow out of this now 

This time it was not a derailment though. That you find it worth while contributing your viewpoint only when it gets support means you suspect to be on the wrong side of history? Otherwise it would be of utter importance contributing your unique viewpoint, no?

Edited February 10 by Mono

[Aztek]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

lot of people have fallen on EUC's. Probably everyone at some point.

It would be quite a curiosity if someone haven't fallen from EUC if used it regularly. People who ride EUC fall. That's an axiom.

So the degree of danger, from the above, is not realted to if people fall but to how they fall I.e. speed, gear, physical abilities etc.

[Mono]

14 minutes ago, Aztek said:

It would be quite a curiosity if someone haven't fallen from EUC if used it regularly.

I can still imagine that this could happen with a good teacher and high levels of risk aversion.

The longer I ride, the less often I fall. My frequency has now dropped to the same level as for riding a bicycle (about once a year) and I can imagine it dropping further. So just riding regularly in itself seems not a sufficient reason to fall.

14 minutes ago, Aztek said:

So the degree of danger, from the above, is not realted to if people fall but to how they fall I.e. speed, gear, physical abilities etc.

+1

Edited February 10 by Mono

[Mono]

 

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

And again in EUC case both stand one side. Probability of crashing can't be taken into numbers

I disagree.

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

as each individual rider is different and place we ride also are different.. So the danger of crashing can go from 1 to 100.

Nope 

 

[Funky]

2 minutes ago, Mono said:

 

I disagree.

Nope 

 

I'll agree to disagree. 

Can't see your logic.. Every single euc rider have crashed/fallen yes? - Yes.. Each individual chance of crashing/falling is different. (Skill. Where one is riding. How busy is the road/sidewalk. List is endless.)

 

[The Brahan Seer]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

because I rarely get support on my viewpoint.

I totally agree with you. EUC's are very dangerous. Irrespective of the riders skill, this is probably the only form of transport that will catastrophically drop you to the ground in the event of a malfunction or just over pushing it*. Everything else gives you the chance to recover or come to a halt in a controlled way (if you have the skill).

This alone makes it potentially more dangerous than motorcycles, everything else being equal.

Using deaths as a measure is only useful when quoting number of deaths per vehicles in circulation and even then with small numbers and time scales probably makes the figures pretty meaningless at the moment. But as stated injuries are certainly very high, serious ones too. 

*I am guessing its as dangerous as mountain bike riding, to me that is perceived as very dangerous too. But maybe thats only the case with hardcore riders, whilst with EUC's you don't even need to be hardcore to seriously hurt yourself.

 

[Planemo]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

The same is true for bicycles: a lot of people have fallen riding them.

People aren't often doing 20+ mph on bicycles. And there are many, many people who, after having learnt how to ride a bike, have never fallen since. My wife for example. Further, a crash on a bicycle generally doesn't send you face down unless you go over the bars (extremely rare for non-hardcore MTB-ers). So that takes out a lot of collarbone and head/facial injuries relative to EUC. And, FWIW, having been a cyclist since a kid and still a very active MTB-er now (aged 51) I would still sit here and type that EUC's are far more dangerous, and thats after having ridden the French alp downhills on MTB several times.

4 hours ago, Mono said:

That is not the usage of the word dangerous I am aware of

Lets see about the word 'dangerous'. I'm assuming we both agree that everyone who rides an EUC will fall at some point. We also know that serious injury can result even from a very low speed. We also know that just about any EUC malfunction will cause a fall. We also have the undeniable physical limitations of one wheel compared to 2, not only due to just one contact patch but also the inherent instability of a single spinning wheel. Oh look, theres another danger which bicycles dont get (speed wobbles).

Clearly, yes we have a very different outlook on what the word 'dangerous' means.

I can only assume that you believe that given 100 riders on bicycles and 100 riders on EUC, there would be equal injuries, both in number and severity, over a given sample time. To me however that seems incomprehensible. I guess thats where we differ.

4 hours ago, Mono said:

I don't know, I can't possibly know, very few people, if any, have enough information to know, AFAICS, whether or how this injury could have been prevented.

I think you're clutching at straws here. I seriously doubt that anything other than a pair of concrete boots would have prevented Marty's ankle break. I'm being pedantic btw, not only because concrete boots are clearly not a solution but because even if he did it would have likely just sent the forces up further and busted his tib/fib instead.

4 hours ago, Mono said:

That you find it worth while contributing your viewpoint only when it gets support

I had already given my viewpoint earlier in the thread remember.

Thus, we are back at exactly what I said would happen earlier, I can never change anyones view on this subject so the whole thing becomes futile and as such this will deffo be my last post.

Without doubt, I love EUC's as much as the next man or woman. But I'm not going to kid myself that they are safer than bicycles or in fact just about every other form of transport and truth be told I'm worried that riders who do so become complacent. And I don't like hearing about EUC injuries.

All the best.

[Mono]

11 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I can only assume that you believe that given 100 riders on bicycles and 100 riders on EUC, there would be equal injuries, both in number and severity, over a given sample time

When it comes to risk assessment, I believe in non-anecdotal evidence. I didn't claim anything resembling your assumption, you are the one making claims. I am just saying you can't possibly know and that the argument that EUCs have only one wheel or that EUC riders fall more often than cyclists or that many cyclists "never" fall or that...doesn't cut it.

14 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I seriously doubt that anything other than a pair of concrete boots would have prevented Marty's ankle break.

Which is same pattern, you are making a claim whereas I am saying it's not possible for you to know with reasonable certainty unless you have quite a bit of knowledge that I don't have. I mean, if you don't even know what exactly happened, how could you think it was unavoidable to break an ankle in a fall while riding "mostly 10-15mph" and without helmet by a rider who usually wears one?

[Mono]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

Can't see your logic.

I guess, I also don't think you are actually trying very hard, so... My logic is pretty much the same logic which lets humanity cure or prevent diseases reliably, despite the known deepity that "each individual is different". It's along the lines of science but not it's not really "rocket science".

3 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I totally agree with you. EUC's are very dangerous. Irrespective of the riders skill, this is probably the only form of transport that will catastrophically drop you to the ground in the event of a malfunction or just over pushing it*. Everything else gives you the chance to recover or come to a halt in a controlled way (if you have the skill).

When the brakes of a motorbike or a car fail at high speed before the road takes a bend, you are fucked, zero chance to recover at any skill level, and you are probably much more fucked than when the EUC stops functioning at the speed EUCs are normally operated. Similarly, a tire failure at max speed is most like more dangerous on a motorbike and even in a car than on an EUC, because the EUC is, as of now, much slower. Cars can also lose wheels... And don't get me started on the safest mode of transportation, airplanes, where almost any serious malfunction can just lead to a catastrophe. From there it seems rather obvious that probabilities must be part of the equation to assess risk.

Myth #1: EUCs are the only vehicle where a functional failure can be dangerous and potentially lethal.

Myth #2: Vehicles for which functional failures are dangerous must be dangerous (by definition and the composition fallacy).

Edited February 10 by Mono

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Without doubt, I love EUC's as much as the next man or woman. But I'm not going to kid myself that they are safer than bicycles or in fact just about every other form of transport and truth be told I'm worried that riders who do so become complacent. And I don't like hearing about EUC injuries.

From a very general sense, I would agree with your thought to some extent, at least from what I have observed on bike paths and roads.

On average, people that I have seen riding euc's are more of an enthusiast type of riders. Typically, they ride more aggressively than the average bicyclist, hands down.

Whereas, bicyclists are from all walks of life.

And among the bicyclists, there are the speed demons who ignore stop signs nor abide by any rule of the road. But fortunately for them, the vast majority of drivers that I have observed over the decades do anticipate for that, and they helped mitigate the risk for many cyclists.

I think getting hurt on an euc is probably more likely on an euc than on a bicycle during the learning stage.

But after that, it depends on how the rider rides and willingness and skills to mitigate risks.

 

On a related note, the type of feedback I get from strangers while riding has drastically changed. Two years ago, strangers would be curious about the device I am riding. Nowadays, almost all would make a snide remark that they saw these guys on euc's zooming down the street at break-neck speeds.

They can't be talking about me, right?  

 

 

 

Edited February 10 by techyiam

[Funky]

11 hours ago, Mono said:

I guess, I also don't think you are actually trying very hard, so... My logic is pretty much the same logic which lets humanity cure or prevent diseases reliably, despite the known deepity that "each individual is different". It's along the lines of science but not it's not really "rocket science".

Each their own i guess.. I have zero danger and have zero though in my head of getting hurt, when i ride my bicycle. And doing it over 20 years have proven that. No helmet or any type of gear. Regular old fashion 20km/h speed riding on sidewalks..

But same type of riding 20km/h on sidewalks without gear on EUC. Back of my mind i have this feeling - that EUC will go high-wire one wonderful day. Sending my flying face first into ground and breaking my neck. That though crosses my mind every time i step on the EUC. Sure it sounds extreme.. But it's a possibility. And one day that happening is a probability.  At least to some degree.. Like falling, or breaking something. 

I simply 100% don't trust the "magic" that is keeping us up on EUC's.. And no-one should! Because any moment the wheel can stop working suddenly without any warnings. Water getting onto board.. Ant somehow got into wheel and made board go Buzz-Buzz.. On old fashion bicycle you don't have to worry about things like that. You got a chain, sprockets, and 2 wheels. It would be very hard to suddenly break those.. And wear and tear shows long before they actually fail. EUC breaks suddenly! Same way computers do without any warnings it stops working one day. Because electronics do that! Old fashion steel on steel don't do that suddenly.

The part of ant(bug in general) getting on board and killing it - should show how fragile these "electronics" that are holding us up from ground actually are! Or little bit of water.. (Luckily EUC boards are coated into protective coating.. But how good job of coating said board have been done - no one knows till it's too late.) Primitive transportations like bicycles don't have those weaknesses. They ride till you need to do a chain change. Tire change or something that start showing wear/tear.. EUC simply dies! Sure you can ride year, two, hack even five without anything happening.. But one day you will wake up on ground without any warning signs.

I don't get how you don't comprehend that simple thing.. EUC's are dangerous because of their electronics.. The batteries alone can burn you to ash and your beloved ones while you sleep by asphyxiating, if you don't catch the fire in time. Bicycle can't.

 

Yes this isn't "rocket science"... But same time little bit are. Because electronics are bit from there. 

Edited February 11 by Funky

[Aztek]

The basic common sense calls for danger mitigation when riding an EUC.

It is not a joke. It is serious.

One should be doing certain things if to stay acceptably safe:

Defensive riding taking into account all other mobile factors in the environment - mostly motor vehicles and pedestrians. Don't get killed by a car, don't kill pedestrians and pets.

Riding in a way that falling at any time won't result in grave damage - for example, riding on a terrain with sticking sharp objects on the ground is not optimal. You don't want to be impaled on something when falling. Riding on the edge of a cliff is asking for trouble. Etc.

Full gear all the time. Last time a minute miscalculation of the terrain and the forces on my heavy master resulted in brutal faceplant. If not for my helmet and other gear, I truly believe I might have been  killed this time. The least what was guaranteed was severe face/scull trauma with permanent damage and over an year recovery time. With my gear on I got only a bit of muscle overexertion.

When riding EUC, it is important to maintain good physical fitness. Strong muscles help with falls.

It can be summarised as riding in a way that sudden fall at any time won't result in serious damage, which translates in constant evaluation of the situation and environment and never riding at speeds greater than 30-35 km/h.

The last is the most important - greater speed is deadly dangerous and cannot be mitigated.

This said, let's face it - the majority of EUC riders do not observe any of the above and simply put are in grave danger and are grave danger when riding. That's all.

 

Edited February 11 by Aztek

[Mono]

I think that hitting the ground with the face is almost always avoidable. I thought it was not when I started riding, but I changed my mind on this. When reviewing some footage, it seems that quite a few riders on camera don't touch ground with their face or helmet when the "faceplant". The important technique is to prevent he upper body to rotated forward. These are pictures of two high speed "cutouts", in the second we see that knees and hips are in front of the shoulders the moment the rider is touching the ground. The rider managed to shift knees and hips forward and rotate the upper body backwards after the wheel gave in. It's almost magical, and it certainly didn't happen by chance.

But even falling forward doesn't mean to hit the ground with the face or sustaining significant injuries without gear:

 

Edited February 11 by Mono

[Aztek]

19 minutes ago, Mono said:

hitting the ground with the face is almost always avoidable

Yes, I've fallen many times and only once faceplanting. Once is enough though. If without helmet.

Once dead, always dead, you know.

And gotta tell you, I know how to fall. Learned it in the aikido dojo.

As a stupid sign has been reading around here: "one second not paying attention - whole life dead" 😀

Edited February 11 by Aztek

[Mono]

8 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Yes, I've fallen many times and only once faceplanting.

What is your explanation what went wrong this single time, if you have one?

Edited February 11 by Mono

[Aztek]

37 minutes ago, Mono said:

What is your explanation what went wrong this single time, if you have one?

Just an unusual combination of power vectors and the innate instability of one wheel. No clear explanation.

But I've fallen due to overlean and this is 100% face down falling. I managed to put my hands up though and traumatised a finger which recovered the next 10 months.

Edited February 11 by Aztek

[The Brahan Seer]

12 hours ago, Mono said:

probabilities must be part of the equation to assess risk.

I guess the probabilities of crashing or malfunction are very high on an EUC compared to Motorcycles or Aeroplanes* at the moment. Hopefully this will change with new technology and better manufacturing.

I have had one face plant after 2 years riding and this resulted in breaking my collarbone. Classic over lean cutout, too fast to react (for me).

It would be interesting to know how many people break bones, how often and time scales...actually it probably wouldn't (best not to know).

The slower speed is certainly the biggest factor and with the wheels getting faster and faster people will undoubtably crash and hurt themselves more now.

Danger is very subjective, and we all learn the risks.

*We call airplanes, Aeroplanes in the UK.

[Mono]

18 minutes ago, Aztek said:

But I've fallen due to overlean and this is 100% face down falling.

It is 100% for you then, but apparently not for all riders as I tried to convey in the above post.

[Mono]

11 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I guess the probabilities of crashing or malfunction are very high on an EUC compared to Motorcycles or Aeroplanes* at the moment.

+1 for sure. Yet, malfunction still makes only a small percentage of all EUC crashes. That is, even making EUCs 100% reliable will only have a relatively small effect on the injury statistics.

11 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I have had one face plant after 2 years riding and this resulted in breaking my collarbone. Classic over lean cutout, too fast to react (for me).

The reaction can only be quick enough if the rider has been primed to react in a certain way when the wheel gives in. Unless it's a natural reflex for this person, priming takes some continued training effort and nobody teaches us how to do it.

11 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

The slower speed is certainly the biggest factor and with the wheels getting faster and faster people will undoubtably crash and hurt themselves more now.

+1

[Funky]

This winter alone already have fallen two times. (But i personally don't count the winter "slides" as crash or fall.. Because it's common sense, if ground is slippery - you gonna slide at one point.) < And these slides don't really bother me. You simply slide sideways. Most times landing sideways on ground. And puffy jacket/gloves - you don't even feel the landing part.  Quick and fast adrenaline rush.  Also you aren't going that fast in first place. Because of slipperiness, ice, snow slushy.

  

Other than that i have fallen only 3 times. 2 times where at very beginning. When i still where learning and haven't bought any gear yet. First time was a belly flop. (I learned on dirt/grass) I was going over dirt path, didn't see a indent and was riding with straight legs. I lost balance and fell on my belly. Luckily i reacted fast enough and put my hands in front. Most of impact where taken by hands, followed by my big fat belly. Face didn't even touch the ground.

Second time was when i was going on asphalt. You know those "crazy" zig~~~zag paths that go true forests.. Around trees.. I took turn to fast and my upper body went to much sideways. Twisted to much, making me loose balance again. Doh this time i simply rolled on ground. (Thug my hands to my body like in boxing you place your hands upwards to protect face.) And simply did 3-4 rolls on asphalt. No damage done to body what so ever..

Now my most crazy fall was at higher speed. Luckily it was in loose sand. So i didn't get hurt, but was quite shaken and took my time getting up. Also this time my head touched the ground. (Had helmet this time..) I was riding about 25km/h in very loose sand. Almost same type sand as on beaches. Wheel suddenly went 90degree sideways and stop right in tracks. Launching me forwards literally like flying superman. I needed to walk back about 3 meters to get the wheel. I landed also on my belly, so again my fat belly took most of the impact. Could even feel my body dragging/sliding in the sand little bit. The impact to head was very little. Only the chin part touched the ground.. But it also was because i was flying.. My whole body landed on ground the same time. Most falls the legs touch the ground first. Followed by upper body, afterwards head. (At least followed by my fall statics..)

The funny part - i was very certain that i will fall this ride - and i was right.. Because how sketchy is riding true very loose sand. I'm very aware of my surroundings. And by nature i'm very "scaredy-cat like", so i don't take any risks without thinking first. And ride very defensively in mind.

If EUC's doesn't stop working suddenly.. It's the same as bicycle to me. Riding on plain straight sidewalks on solid asphalt. There's ZERO chance i will fall or crash. But EUC turning off and stop working suddenly - that's out of my control. 

Edited February 11 by Funky

[techyiam]

My opinion can change in the future as I gain more experience and see more of what can happen with time.

But right now, I feel that if I were to an ride an euc like how I ride a bicycle, my risk exposure would be about the same, excluding euc malfunctions. When I ride a bicycle,  I ride very conservatively, not fast at all. Since I put on gear when I ride an euc, and the low speeds, I don't believe I would get significantly more injured than if I were to ride a bicycle. 

On the other hand, if I were to ride a motorcycle, I do believe I can get significantly more injured than if I were to ride a bicycle, given how I ride my bicycle. 

My current thinking is that my euc riding would not get me more injured than me riding a motorcycle. I don't ride my euc's how I ride a bicycle, so I would be exposed to higher risks. 

 

 

[Mono]

7 minutes ago, Funky said:

And these slides don't really bother me. You simply slide sideways. Most times landing sideways on ground. And puffy jacket/gloves - you don't even feel the landing part.

Right. These winter slides are probably a little more dangerous on bicycles, because we can't get entangled in a big frame, only stumble over the much smaller wheel.

Having said that, I did fall on my face from sliding out below walking speed on an EUC last winter  First the wheel slid, than my foot slid, then my hand slid and then boom. I was fine, it didn't prevent me to continue riding after a minute but I was walking around with a bruised face for ten-or-so days.

I suspect even in this case, more flexible knees and hips would have prevented me from falling on the face. I was stupidly relying on having grip with the foot instead of surrendering to the circumstances by going to the ground gracefully. I don't ride often in icy conditions.

6 minutes ago, Funky said:

Wheel suddenly went 90degree sideways and stop right in tracks. Launching me forwards literally like flying superman. I needed to walk back about 3 meters to get the wheel. I landed also on my belly

I'd suggest that ultimately your legs launched you forward. The wheel can't do any launching if you don't pushed back with your legs. That's how flexible knees, ankles, and hips are so important for safety. But then, if your belly does the job of saving you, that seems to work out too