Upgrading Kingsong s22 motor to 4000w - MAN ITŚ GOOD (DIY-PRO)

[Rawnei]

51 minutes ago, Crab said:

Doubtful, we already have the 40t high discharge cells, 50s just adds more capacity.

Most S22s have high capacity LG cells.

[techyiam]

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I see, thanks, I wonder if they made any software adjustments to accommodate the high discharge cells.

I noticed that Kingsong has been making improvements on their firmware, progressively since the S22 release.

Since I bought my S22 so late, I can really see the improvements as I flashed the then latest firmware version compared to the version that came with the wheel.

And now from 2.33 to 2.35, I saw more improvements.

In comparison, the V12 (HS) is still being sold, but the firmware hasn't been updated for some time now.

I think there is a fair chance Kingsong would make some optimizations for the Samsung 50S cells if there is a need.

In any case, in the next version of firmware, in the release notes, Kingsong should highlights the main changes. We have to wait and see.

Edited December 8, 2023 by techyiam

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, Crab said:

Yea be carefully on that one, great wheel at lower speeds. 

i know, right? that's why i don't want to put the hard michelin tire on it just yet, even if it will fit, cause i know it will make me go faster.  going outside to ride it a bit now just to drain the batteries to storage state. 

battery technology is waaay above my pay grade and seems to be highly subjective. 

what battery is in the units some or at least one vendor i've contacted, hasn't been able to determine the wheel's wattage capacity or what type of battery. 

i haven't pursued it much because i'm waiting to see how this 50s shakes out.

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i haven't pursued it much because i'm waiting to see how this 50s shakes out.

It almost seem like you are making rapid fire purchasing of euc's recently. 

I am wondering whether this is due to a case of serious euc addiction (like many of us), or simply you have a need for them? 

[Crab]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

Most S22s have high capacity LG cells.

I have 40t and can lean on it hard at lower voltage

Edited December 8, 2023 by Crab

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Crab said:

I have 40t and can lean on it hard at lower voltage

Nice.

Have you try at lower temperatures, let say around the 40's F?

[Crab]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Nice.

Have you try at lower temperatures, let say around the 40's F?

Yes, usually 3-5v sag and definitely reduced range but works just fine, I'll be out today at 42deg on the ex30

Edited December 8, 2023 by Crab

[Crab]

46 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i know, right? that's why i don't want to put the hard michelin tire on it just yet, even if it will fit, cause i know it will make me go faster.  going outside to ride it a bit now just to drain the batteries to storage state. 

battery technology is waaay above my pay grade and seems to be highly subjective. 

what battery is in the units some or at least one vendor i've contacted, hasn't been able to determine the wheel's wattage capacity or what type of battery. 

i haven't pursued it much because i'm waiting to see how this 50s shakes out.

That s18 might be a great trainer for the two girls, I can't imagine starting them on something bigger.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

It almost seem like you are making rapid fire purchasing of euc's recently. 

I am wondering whether this is due to a case of serious euc addiction (like many of us), or simply you have a need for them? 

yeah, not like 99.97% of y'all, i actually need a portable conveyance. can't call uber to take me a half mile away to my hill for example, and sit and wait while i look at the fields and cattle. 325 acres is like 300 soccer fields. 

hard to do this with any other type of conveyance. this is transportation home once my heavy equipment is situated on the property. 

been at this since 2017 when all the forum "experts" haha, said i never be able to ride in my pastures, they should see euc girl now. 

i know what i like, and since euc buyers all rush to the latest, greatest, first batch wheels, been there, done that, this time, especially if i have to change the tire, if it's possible, i might buy a couple at a discount, although idk if my curiosity level of the fastace suspension is worth that much money. there's a guy about 20 miles west of me, i hope he's ordered a lynx. he's handy and i've watched his videos. 

and after finally disassembling the s22 and examining their engineering, if a real pro+,  that's what they call the 50s version, can be bought this holiday season at a discount, yeah, i'll borrow money until i sell cows. paid $3419 with kickstand direct from inmotion for these last two v13's and glad i did because they are the first perfect wheels i ever bought. so i went back, now having a benchmark, and fixed my first batch one that is just as plush as the last two now. 

even the  s18 made it  up my hill, so hopefully none of them will faceplant me. i don't slow crawl up the hill. 

btw, idk how to interpret these numbers.

one is from today a little slow ride on my road, the other is from yesterday riding it up the hill. i think i have plenty of reserve.

Edited December 8, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

41 minutes ago, Crab said:

That s18 might be a great trainer for the two girls, I can't imagine starting them on something bigger.

exactly! the s18 is a great trainer wheel. one gf has already had a taste. yeah, she much preferred the s18 to the v13, haha. not trying to kill them. i'm gonna have a couple of high profile young men to teach soon as well. that will boost wheel popularity. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by novazeus

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, novazeus said:

after finally disassembling the s22 and examining their engineering, if a real pro+,  that's what they call the 50s version, can be bought this holiday season at a discount, yeah, i'll borrow money until i sell cows.

You mean your S22 rides well enough on your pasture for you to buy another one. Why not just stick with the V13's. They are well built and you say they are perfect for riding on your pasture.

 

[techyiam]

55 minutes ago, Crab said:

Yes, usually 3-5v sag and definitely reduced range but works just fine, I'll be out today at 42deg on the ex30

My Begode T3, V12, and S22 all use the LG M50LT cells. Below 50 C cell temperature, the maximum continuous discharge is only 2.4 A.

And I noticed that when the ambient temperature is below roughly 41 F, the lowest cell temperature goes below 50 F. This is according to the Kingsong app for the S22.

So I tread likely when I go riding below 41 F. I also lose some range. But I find it not to be that bad, depending how hard one rides.

[novazeus]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You mean your S22 rides well enough on your pasture for you to buy another one. Why not just stick with the V13's. They are well built and you say they are perfect for riding on your pasture.

 

well, like i said, i've only been doing this since 2017, so certain aspects like freemounting and u-turns, i suck at. i never have to do them out here, but if i'm gonna practice someday, freemounting and u-turns, haha, i damn sure don't want to practice with the v13's until i can do the s22 easily. actually, with the pedals lowered and moved forward, which is another great feature of the s22, freemounting isn't hard. haven't tried the v13's yet. totally different need out here than 99.97% of y'all. i'm pretty damn good at carrying packages or dragging a trailer. carrying packages, esp in high winds is an art form.

for example, if i have to dart across my pasture in high winds, duh! i take the 120 pound v13. but if it's calm and i want to practice on my new training field, i take the s22. both those suspensions work perfectly fine. i don't need anymore "plush" suspension. torque or extra safety is always nice but there are no interstate embankments on my property i need to climb.

[techyiam]

42 minutes ago, novazeus said:

for example, if i have to dart across my pasture in high winds, duh! i take the 120 pound v13. but if it's calm and i want to practice on my new training field, i take the s22. both those suspensions work perfectly fine. i don't need anymore "plush" suspension.

I have never ridden on your pasture, nor any pasture for that matter.  So I wouldn't know what makes a wheel good for riding on a pasture. I was curious as to what makes a wheel good for that.

Once sorted out, I also find the suspension on the S22 worked quite well. I wasn't sure whether the 20" tire on the s22 was good enough for your pasture. I guess it is then.

[Crab]

The only real issues I have ever had with the s22 offroad was with a street tire on wet grass, and sinking down to the pedals twice.  Other than that it's awesome with the 244 on or offroad, pavement, grass or gravel it just works.

[okvp]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

My Begode T3, V12, and S22 all use the LG M50LT cells. Below 50 C cell temperature, the maximum continuous discharge is only 2.4 A.

And I noticed that when the ambient temperature is below roughly 41 F, the lowest cell temperature goes below 50 F. This is according to the Kingsong app for the S22.

So I tread likely when I go riding below 41 F. I also lose some range. But I find it not to be that bad, depending how hard one rides.

I don't think that temperature/ current recommended limit is actually that small

From data sheet in Celsius.

• -20 … +10°C: 2400 mA (2,4 A)
• +10 … +25°C: 14400 mA (14,4 A)
• +25 … +55°C: 7200 mA (7,2 A)

If it's 2,4A for -20C/ -4F  it must be much more for +10C / 50 F...  Those data sheets are quite crappy, I don't know if there is actually a drop when going below freezing point or is that amperage value more linear from -20 (2,4A) to +25 (14,4 A). 

[techyiam]

45 minutes ago, okvp said:

Those data sheets are quite crappy

But it is from the manufacturer, LG.

You are speculating, LG is making specifications based on their design knowledge and testing.

[okvp]

43 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But it is from the manufacturer, LG.

You are speculating, LG is making specifications based on their design knowledge and testing.

Ok! then at 10,1C you can draw out 14,4A  but when temperature drops huge 0,2 degrees to 9.9 C you can draw only 2,4A  errr....

Edited December 8, 2023 by okvp

[novazeus]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have never ridden on your pasture, nor any pasture for that matter.  So I wouldn't know what makes a wheel good for riding on a pasture. I was curious as to what makes a wheel good for that.

Once sorted out, I also find the suspension on the S22 worked quite well. I wasn't sure whether the 20" tire on the s22 was good enough for your pasture. I guess it is then.

it's wearing a michelin pilot street 2 in 80/90-14, so probably closer to 18" outside diameter. 
imagine riding half a mile on stairs that have been laid horizontally, or the old time washboard. idk if these dinky lawn rollers will smooth it out or not. i can rent a vibratory compactor and make the paths like glass. 

yeah, i love my s22 diy pro, and call it placebo effect, but @level9thought the same as me, the braking, everything vastly improved. 

just like a boat in choppy waters, the longer boat gives the smoothest ride.

[novazeus]

3 hours ago, Crab said:

The only real issues I have ever had with the s22 offroad was with a street tire on wet grass, and sinking down to the pedals twice.  Other than that it's awesome with the 244 on or offroad, pavement, grass or gravel it just works.

yeah, i think u northerners have tundra, not soil like mine. mine is hard as asphalt practically.

[novazeus]

this is what @level9says and i'm in agreement. braking is much improved. we both have our pedals down and forward.

I installed the PRO motor into the original S22.
 

    My initial impressions are similar to Wrongway. I can't overpower the wheel by flicking it and the wheel feels like it just wants to go.
 

    The torque seems much improved as I can actually accelerate to 50km/h+ going uphill which is a pretty amazing feeling.
 

    I've not yet been able to access the 8kW power peak. The best I can do is 6kW which is what I could get with the old motor. The safety margins kick in before the power is available when riding at speed. I will probably need to adjust my power pads for a more superman-style lean to see if the power peak can at least be accessed on acceleration.
 

    I've not noticed any difference in range (motor efficiency).
 

    The braking performance is much improved. 
    Previously I would typically pull -0.47g on deceleration before she would start getting soft on me @ -2649W / -21.7A peak 
    With the PRO motor I've managed -0.63g @ -3198W/-26.6A peak and still not soft which is a notable safety related upgrade (emergency braking).
 

    For context:
 

    Many safety experts use 15 ft/sec2 (0.47 g's) as the maximum deceleration that is safe for the average driver to maintain control, good to excellent tires, dry surface. A reasonably skilled driver can stop at 20 ft/sec2 (0.62 g's). Most production street vehicles have a maximum braking around 0.8 g's.
 

     
 

     
 
 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, okvp said:

Ok! then at 10,1C you can draw out 14,4A  but when temperature drops huge 0,2 degrees to 9.9 C you can draw only 2,4A  errr....

Exactly. 

On top of that, how about the accuracy and precision of the temperature sensor.

So to be on the side of caution, I would assume the maximum continuous discharge current to be 2.4 A for the cell to be the limit as high as 12 C or so.

[novazeus]

found this

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/samsung_50S.pdf

https://www.imrbatteries.com/content/samsung_40T.pdf

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

yeah, i love my s22 diy pro, and call it placebo effect, but @level9thought the same as me, the braking, everything vastly improved. 

Out of the box, my S22 definitely wasn't the wheel I thought I bought. To start with, it didn't ride the way the demo S22 rode.

Slowly, it got better. But still, I didn't think it was that special. I thought my V12, and Abrams were better wheels on smoother roads.

Then I put in the Hou Ningning roller sliders. It already had a 300 lbs spring on it. But the combination make my S22 hard to beat on bumpy street riding. There was just no way my V12 nor Abrams can come close to how good the S22 rode on bumpy roads. The S22 for some reason became a nicer wheel to ride when it has a nicer suspension. I am not just talking about the ride. The cornering characteristics and control felt great. It became an intuitive wheel to ride.

Also, in hard mode, acceleration and braking improved, especially with firmware 2.35.

I don't plan to retrofit a Pro motor. I am happy with the acceleration and braking as is. 

[novazeus]

yeah, with the free ball bearing slider kit from king song, the michelin tire, the 4000watt hh motor and lowered and forward pedals, man o man, is she sweet. and my total investment not counting my labor, about $2750. i'd like to get a pro with the 40t batteries i think, at a discounted price. like $2500, then i'll change the tire. and i run my tires extremely hard, two psi over cold. makes a huge difference in performance. if ur gonna work on ur mounting and u-turn skills, the v13 is not the correct vehicle. for u-turns, i'll probably use the s18, for mounting practice, the s22. 

i run hard mode as well. i never screw with any of those settings on any of my wheels. i don't ride like anybody else i guess. i just use the balls, instep, and heels of my feet. no leg clamping at all. i go plenty fast and stop plenty fast, but i don't leave the ranch. so no cars or traffic or humans. 

btw, i'm 175 pounds 6' tall,  naked. i have the stock spring on mine, the retainer screw in about three turns after touching the spring, set to max soft and max fast, and it seems perfect to me on my road and in the pasture. sag about an inch or 3/4".

i went from this wheel is ok, to i love this wheel and wanna buy another during the holiday sales. there's alot to like with the s22. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by novazeus