Reliability: Master vs Extreme vs V14 ?

[woke rider]

I think it’s good to be an early adopter because factory would take great care in my the handling of my wheel, and it’s always fun to be ahead of the curve, having the latest and greatest.

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

I think it’s good to be an early adopter because factory would take great care in my the handling of my wheel, and it’s always fun to be ahead of the curve, having the latest and greatest.

Based on the venting posts of early adopter of the S22 and the Master, many would disagree with you.

Just wondering, have you experienced a break down of an electric wheel, and have to go through the hassle of convincing the dealer that you have a legitimate warranty claim, and then wait for the part, then replace the part, and hope that everything went well, assuming a good, correct part was sent to you in the first place? At each step of the process, things can go unpleasantly too.

Watch the latest eevees video, even a dealer / distributor is tired of being a dealer for early adopters.

 

[woke rider]

Working on it yourself voids the warranty.

[woke rider]

Begode has a very different policy indeed as it is understood that the agent will be providing us with covered parts.

Product Warranty – Blue Chip Electric Uni Cycle.pdf

Edited September 24, 2023 by earthtwin
One more thing

[woke rider]

WARRANTY – INMOTION Official Store.pdf

This might not apply to the adventure, I don’t know but it sound like parts are covered but we have to work on our own inmotion wheels just like Begode. King Song is different because it seems overly easy for king song to deny a claim based off of “riding over an obstacle “ ROTFL

[Cerbera]

Yeah KS's warranty isn't really worth much with all those exclusions, and you do place yourself rather at the mercy of the goodwill of the manufacturer if you take one of those on - though if they were massively unfair about it pretty sure I would have a read a lot more complaints than I have. Whereas Begode are very pleased to consider a warranty case fully resolved by popping a part in the post !

Bizarrely I have rather opposite situation going on with SpeedyFeet, and their complimentary 3 year extended warranty for my Master. They want me to pay to send it back to them, and then back to me once a year, starting this November, for them to perform a 'free warranty extension service' on the wheel. As that time nears I find myself rather unwilling to do it ! In the first year I have completely disassembled and reassembled my wheel several times now, and regularly perform all the checks and inspections that SF's technicians would do in their annual service, so I am really struggling to see the point of sending it back to them, and risking additional damage in transport, other than that it would be nice to get replacement parts for the 3 years instead of 2 !

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cerbera

[onewheelkoregro]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:42 AM, Cerbera said:

If the MOSFETs were truly insufficient for the task at hand there would be a hell of a lot more cut-outs than we read about. From what I have read the more likely suspect for burnt out components causing crashes is the heat transfer pad between MOSFETS and lower mainboard, which some people feel the need to replace with hand-squeezed thermal paste.

As somebody who has a V2 Master coming up to its first full year of use I can comment on its reliability to some extent, though of course not on any of the improvements that have been made between version 2 and the current, which has metal battery boxes etc

In that first year I have experienced:

• Leaky shock (started leaking about 6 months in / replaced under warranty)
• 2 x replacement boards (was sent new power board / satellite board / updated under Warranty)
• 3 episodes of weird noises / knocking during ride (water in bearing / periodic strange vibration things / suspension-related issue)

All these problems were solved via dialogue with Begode / my dealer (Speedyfeet in the UK, always excellent), and I chose to fit all replacement parts myself, which has sometimes been stressy, but has worked overall in that I still have a perfectly rideable machine that I have come to know and trust to a decent extent. It IS worth the pain for me - and I still love riding it as often as I can.

The Master can be reliable, but depends on you regularly checking everything, and feeling capable to carry out repairs and preventative correctional stuff yourself.

However all the time it is working it remains a fabulous wheel, with oodles of power and torque (I find it literally impossible to overpower mine), is quite rewarding to ride (except on very windy days), and is (relatively) simple to disassemble and work on.

BUT, Begode are known time and time again for iterative improvement, and their ability to quickly listen to feedback and implement solutions, so it is worth looking carefully at their more modern iterations, and / or waiting for later batches of them, by which time a lot of the early problems have been addressed. If I had my time again, and was buying a wheel now I might be more tempted by the Extreme than the Master - it is better built, is a generation or 2 on, and is better in a great many regards.

I am considering a V4 master for my next wheel. You live in Europe? Do you continue to ride in the winter where you live? This is going to be my first winter riding an EUC but I have an ebike that has admittedly not been getting much use since I discovered EUCs but I was wondering if I will have to go back to commuting by bike instead of wheel for the winter

[onewheelkoregro]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:32 AM, Warxcell said:

Can anyone help - I'm thorn between Master (because of low price now) - Extreme and Adventure. After my Nikola+ board failed at 4.5k km - I'm searching for reability, more torque and suspension (speed is not important, I don't (rarely) speed over 50km/h). I'm a bit worried about any Begode wheel now, but I have to admin - extreme/master looks better and packs more features than Adventure. I saw in other topics that Begode uses inferior MOSFET - maybe that's why every now and then I see master cutouts/board failure - is that correct? 

So basically - what's your advice?

I am also torn between the Extreme and the Master. The master does not have smart BMS or a speaker, and the pads are funky. The Extreme improves on all of these. The Master has a bigger tire which is better for higher speeds for stability but I am going to wait for the batch 2 Extremes or maybe even the batch 3. I am looking to get a suspension wheel and then let my kids learn on my v12 HS.

[Cerbera]

14 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

I am considering a V4 master for my next wheel. You live in Europe? Do you continue to ride in the winter where you live? This is going to be my first winter riding an EUC but I have an ebike that has admittedly not been getting much use since I discovered EUCs but I was wondering if I will have to go back to commuting by bike instead of wheel for the winter

Yes, I live in the UK, where it is mainly cold and wet ! And yes, I do continue to ride all the way through the Winter.

But having said that, it is no fun for me to ride in rain or snow so I try and avoid that, just giving those days a miss or dodging the rain / timing my trips as expertly as I can.

I'm totally fine with taking it out on cold frosty mornings, and I trust my layers of marine grease on my bearing covers, and silicone seals on the motor hubs to keep water out of there, but I deliberately avoid deep puddles, and obviously icy / slippy surfaces. Occasionally I get caught out in horrendous torrential downpours, but I have a waterproof rucksack cover I can instantly deploy over the whole top the unit to be double sure about keeping electronics dry. I have foam blocks preventing any water ingress from below into the mainboard compartment.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cerbera

[meepmeepmayer]

11 hours ago, Warxcell said:

I can wait. I ride my learning wheel now, InMotion V8 and soon (1-2 weeks) I expect the new motherboard (replaced by warranty) to arrive. 
probably the best time to buy new wheel would be around march 2024 - I'm still recovering from broken wrist.

That's great! (That you can wait, not the broken wrist)

You can happily see how the Adventure (V14) and Extreme turn out. The world of EUCs could be quite different in March 2024, who knows.

Good to see you're not giving up on your Nikola either.

Edited September 24, 2023 by meepmeepmayer
forum bug!

[woke rider]

   4 hours ago,  earthtwin said: 

I think it’s good to be an early adopter because factory would take great care in my the handling of my wheel, and it’s always fun to be ahead of the curve, having the latest and greatest.

Based on the venting posts of early adopter of the S22 and the Master, many would disagree with you.

Just wondering, have you experienced a break down of an electric wheel, and have to go through the hassle of convincing the dealer that you have a legitimate warranty claim, and then wait for the part, then replace the part, and hope that everything went well, assuming a good, correct part was sent to you in the first place? At each step of the process, things can go unpleasantly too.

Watch the latest eevees video, even a dealer / distributor is tired of being a dealer for early adopters. @techyiam

i am really thankful that you encourage me to find out the truth about King Song and the other policies and warranty practices. It makes the amazing 2 year warranty out for what it is, which is parts replacement service paid by owner.

[alcatraz]

How about getting a Master that has a few thousand km on the odometer. Then you know the board hasn't been replaced and has survived for a while.

[Cerbera]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:58 PM, earthtwin said:

I think it’s good to be an early adopter because factory would take great care in my the handling of my wheel, and it’s always fun to be ahead of the curve, having the latest and greatest.

Yeah that doesn't necessarily follow, or at least is a double edged sword ! They might be taking extra care with a first batch, but more likely they are rushing like blue arsed flies trying to get them out the door for some arbitrarily set (and usually before it's ready) target date which pre-orders now demand is met !

Yes, you usually get a slightly extended warranty time, and sometimes a cheaper price upfront, but you also have a machine that is more likely to have problems than any that follow ! People very rarely get things perfect at the first attempt, and if we're honest, Begode still struggle to get everything right on batch 4 or 5, so their batch 1's tend to be correspondingly multi-problem-prone. XP has taught me that I am not the sort of person to own a first batch of anything simply because I don't want to spend a LOT of downtime upgrading / fixing / finishing their build for them. Of course some people LOVE all that, almost as much as the riding itself, and those are the sort of people who should buy batch 1s. I'm in the next category down - people who have enough patience and are confident enough to get in there and work with it, but generally want to spend most time riding it rather than fiddling with it on a bench, so I am what I would call a 'Batch 2 guy' ! But who knows - you might get very very lucky, and get a problem-free machine in batch 1 - that has to happen sometimes right ?!

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Cerbera

[mrelwood]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:30 PM, Cerbera said:

Begode still struggle to get everything right on batch 4 or 5

This. It’s horrible to read how they have zero capability to learn from their mistakes, even if solutions are handed to them on a silver platter.

I’m going to vent now, I’m so fed up with them.

Begode still have no idea how to make a working suspension. Instead of replacing the spring that has completely wrong measures they make the connection point sturdier so that they can keep using the wrong spring.

 To prevent the wheel from bottoming out, they add holes to the linkage that makes the shock travel wrong.

 They shared the video of their “professional” suspension testing rig: A chubby guy jumping down from about 1m height a few times. “Look, it works!”

Recently Inmotion shared a video of their suspension testing rig. A computer controlled rig that drops the Adventure with variable weights and heights on the pedals. The drop is controlled by computer, and they collect actual data and test the wheel for hundreds of drops. All very controlled.

I have no idea how people still even consider buying Begode wheels. If they make something good, it happens by accident. And Begode owners are used to the fact that to get the wheel working you need to spend closer to a grand on power pads, linkages, a shock, additional padding, waterproofing, etc. “But the wheel was cheap.”

 Many here know that I like Inmotion’s ergonomics, features, and their whole company policy. There are several reasons for that. For one, they actually try.

 I’d have zero problems preordering the Adventure. It’s so far ahead of the Begodes and Commanders in features, design and execution that it really is funny. It’s like comparing a Tesla car to a 70’s hobbyist tuned Corolla.

 But, each their own.

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’d have zero problems preordering the Adventure.

Sure you would have problems preordering the Adventure. This is because you have been saying that you won't buy heavy wheels.

People may mock the Extreme's suspension, but I jumped on one today, and it is way better than how the S18 felt when I did the same thing on it.

Also, the Extreme felt very solid. It has the riding dynamics akin to the EX30, but a mini-version of it, and more agile and more refined. It felt more solid then let say the Commander Mini. And the Commander Mini is no slouch in that department. Overall, the quality of Begode wheels have been improving significantly compared to Begode wheels prior to the EX30.

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Sure you would have problems preordering the Adventure. This is because you have been saying that you won't buy heavy wheels.

There was a silent “… If I wanted such a heavy wheel” at the end of my sentence. 

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

it is way better than how the S18 felt when I did the same thing on it.

That doesn’t account for much though. Almost all S18 units I’ve tried (8 out of 9) The suspension has been stuck due to alignment issues. People always say how the latest batch was supposedly better, but that didn’t pan out either. Haven’t tried the V2 though.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

the quality of Begode wheels have been improving significantly compared to Begode wheels prior to the EX30.

Which models does that entail? The A2? Bendy sheet metal frame, messy wiring and a mysterious cutout is what I’ve catched on it.

 I’m not saying that their wheels haven’t improved. I don’t know if they have. But based on what I’ve read here, their design and manufacturing processes are still just as ignorant and half-butted as they ever were. The Patton has issues as well, a few even a bit worrying, but at least LK are very serious about fixing them. Properly.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

That doesn’t account for much though. Almost all S18 units I’ve tried (8 out of 9) The suspension has been stuck due to alignment issues. People always say how the latest batch was supposedly better, but that didn’t pan out either. Haven’t tried the V2 though.

Interesting point. I didn't know the situation was that bad. Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised by the poor suspension action of the newly unboxed S22 then. I have tried a demo S22, and it was better. The S18 I test rode was also a demo unit. In any case, I would be interested in your opinion on the S19 and the Extreme when you get a chance to ride them. I think both of these wheels have big potentials to become wheels that stand out.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Which models does that entail? The A2? Bendy sheet metal frame, messy wiring and a mysterious cutout is what I’ve catched on it.

I only meant to include the 2220 Wh and 2400 Wh, 4P wheels, and bigger wheels.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m not saying that their wheels haven’t improved. I don’t know if they have. But based on what I’ve read here, their design and manufacturing processes are still just as ignorant and half-butted as they ever were. The Patton has issues as well, a few even a bit worrying, but at least LK are very serious about fixing them. Properly.

The 900 lbs spring debacle was discouraging, and I was somewhat skewed by that. However, I was pleasantly surprised by the improvements made on the Extreme. Initially, I thought Hsiang was hyping the Extreme because Begode sent him a freebie. Too bad I bought the S22 just before I test rode the S19 and the Extreme. The S19 has only a 60 km/h top speed. But it felt so good I think I could've made the compromise. The other option would have been the Extreme. This would have required me to adapt to a wheel with very different ride characteristics. But it could have been worth it. Incidentally, I don't find the Commander Mini standing out among these wheels. Mind you, I am speaking from the POV of a person who only does urban commuting. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

I would be interested in your opinion on the S19 and the Extreme when you get a chance to ride them.

I will definitely try them if I get the chance, but I’m not expecting that to happen any time soon.

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

I only meant to include the 2220 Wh and 2400 Wh, 4P wheels, and bigger wheels.

Which models are they? I don’t know what other Begodes newer than EX30 fit that criteria other than the Extreme.

 

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

The other option would have been the Extreme. This would have required me to adapt to a wheel with very different ride characteristics. But it could have been worth it.

Even with all the required additional costs and time to make it run properly?

Peoples’ expectations are so incredibly different. When I look for a new wheel, I first disregard any models that require extensive modding just to make them ride comparably to other models. For others though that’s the norm, and they see no extra value in a model that already has all the needed upgrades. For them $2500 + $1000 is cheaper than $3000.

[techyiam]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Which models are they? I don’t know what other Begodes newer than EX30 fit that criteria other than the Extreme.

Right you are. Only one model, the Extreme so far.

The perceived build quality and feel makes the Extreme a stand out for me.

I feel that the EX30 was the wheel that showed Begode has turned the corner, and now the Extreme is potentially a wheel also for those who normally wouldn't consider a Begode wheel.

I couldn't get the same feel for the Extreme by watching videos, as I could in person. Otherwise, I would have bought the Extreme instead. Ditto for the S19.

As for the Extreme,  for my use-case, I don't think I would need a fairing kit for crash protection. It looks pretty tough already. In addition, the suspension may not need a lot of work once Begode have the proper springs sorted out.

Incidentally, the Commander Mini didn't feel cheap at all. However, it didn't stand out for me either. 

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Even with all the required additional costs and time to make it run properly?

For my use-case, I don't think this will be the case for the Extreme. Of course time will tell.

In any case, that is my prediction.

But in the case of the Master, that is a different kettle of fish. I tried and tried to justify getting the Master, since it was so heavily discounted. But in the end, I just couldn't pull the trigger. Like you said, it would require too much work and money out of the box.

It rains a lot around here, so it is not a good idea to ride a wheel that can get water damaged since the warranty would not cover it.

Fairing kits are expensive, and etc.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

When I look for a new wheel, I first disregard any models that require extensive modding just to make them ride comparably to other models. For others though that’s the norm, and they see no extra value in a model that already has all the needed upgrades. For them $2500 + $1000 is cheaper than $3000.

And that is why I couldn't justify getting the Master. Plus, I prefer to spend that time riding, over modding.

However, in the S22 case, I thought it can turn out favorably, like my experience with the Abrams. 

As an aside, my impression of the S19 was that I could just ride it right out of the box.

Regarding the Adventure, I differ from you in that I don't give any new wheel the benefit of the doubt without at least having a chance to see it in person and a chance to hop on it. This is especially true for all new, from the ground up designs.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by techyiam

[Warxcell]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:51 AM, alcatraz said:

How about getting a Master that has a few thousand km on the odometer. Then you know the board hasn't been replaced and has survived for a while.

Not a guarantee. My Nikola+ did 4500km before board died.

 

 

About modding: out-of-the-box between Extreme && Adventure - I believe only Adventure would need modding - it doesn't have seat, and pedals looks worse. (extreme probably would need only better mudguard)

++ for Adventure: 50GB cells have 1000 lifecycle vs 500 of 50E cells of Extreme.

-- for Adventure: no seat, worse pedals.

++ for Extreme: longer suspension travel, seat, better pedals, 200 EUR cheaper.

-- for Extreme 50E cells (500 cycles) vs 1000 cycles for 50GB on Adventure

 

And here comes the motherboard design - how are they comparable? which is better in terms of design/longevity/better components?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Warxcell