Reliability: Master vs Extreme vs V14 ?

[Warxcell]

Can anyone help - I'm thorn between Master (because of low price now) - Extreme and Adventure. After my Nikola+ board failed at 4.5k km - I'm searching for reability, more torque and suspension (speed is not important, I don't (rarely) speed over 50km/h). I'm a bit worried about any Begode wheel now, but I have to admin - extreme/master looks better and packs more features than Adventure. I saw in other topics that Begode uses inferior MOSFET - maybe that's why every now and then I see master cutouts/board failure - is that correct? 

So basically - what's your advice?

[RagingGrandpa]

I think the current-production Master controller has been rather reliable?

Extreme and V14 are unproven... better to stay away from first-batch wheels, if reliability is your top criteria.
 

Edited September 22, 2023 by RagingGrandpa

[Warxcell]

1 minute ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I think the current-production Master controller has been rather reliable?

Extreme and V12 are unproven... better to stay away from first-batch wheels, if reliability is your top criteria.

What about this statement 

 ?

[Warxcell]

4 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I think the current-production Master controller has been rather reliable?

Extreme and V12 are unproven... better to stay away from first-batch wheels, if reliability is your top criteria.

And also these:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/6608959159201991/ 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/6382564878508088/
(Me including: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/6509620895802485/ )

 

and there are few others in some of comments of posts around the group.

[RagingGrandpa]

Right, I'm wasn't thrilled about the choice of FET in the Master, but my criticism is about what value the firmware's current limit gets set to. 
The "expensive FETs" from the demo Master were sized to take massive currents... but if Gotway set the firmware limit appropriately, the cheap FETs should not burn. 

Also bear in mind, controller reliability is about more than the FET size. And so with 3 generations of Master controller now behind us, lots of improvements have been done. 

[Whalesmash]

V14 isnt even out yet. Extreme has been out for a month and rife with batch 1 issues (mostly stupidity in choices rather than hard failures). Master has been out for quite a while (but is now technically discontinued while the probably work on the next version). Pick your poison 

[Cerbera]

2 hours ago, Warxcell said:

I saw in other topics that Begode uses inferior MOSFET - maybe that's why every now and then I see master cutouts/board failure - is that correct? 

If the MOSFETs were truly insufficient for the task at hand there would be a hell of a lot more cut-outs than we read about. From what I have read the more likely suspect for burnt out components causing crashes is the heat transfer pad between MOSFETS and lower mainboard, which some people feel the need to replace with hand-squeezed thermal paste.

As somebody who has a V2 Master coming up to its first full year of use I can comment on its reliability to some extent, though of course not on any of the improvements that have been made between version 2 and the current, which has metal battery boxes etc

In that first year I have experienced:

• Leaky shock (started leaking about 6 months in / replaced under warranty)
• 2 x replacement boards (was sent new power board / satellite board / updated under Warranty)
• 3 episodes of weird noises / knocking during ride (water in bearing / periodic strange vibration things / suspension-related issue)

All these problems were solved via dialogue with Begode / my dealer (Speedyfeet in the UK, always excellent), and I chose to fit all replacement parts myself, which has sometimes been stressy, but has worked overall in that I still have a perfectly rideable machine that I have come to know and trust to a decent extent. It IS worth the pain for me - and I still love riding it as often as I can.

The Master can be reliable, but depends on you regularly checking everything, and feeling capable to carry out repairs and preventative correctional stuff yourself.

However all the time it is working it remains a fabulous wheel, with oodles of power and torque (I find it literally impossible to overpower mine), is quite rewarding to ride (except on very windy days), and is (relatively) simple to disassemble and work on.

BUT, Begode are known time and time again for iterative improvement, and their ability to quickly listen to feedback and implement solutions, so it is worth looking carefully at their more modern iterations, and / or waiting for later batches of them, by which time a lot of the early problems have been addressed. If I had my time again, and was buying a wheel now I might be more tempted by the Extreme than the Master - it is better built, is a generation or 2 on, and is better in a great many regards.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Cerbera

[digithom]

12 minutes ago, Warxcell said:

And also these:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/6608959159201991/ 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/6382564878508088/
(Me including: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/6509620895802485/ )

 

and there are few others in some of comments of posts around the group.

Of the three stories only yours is due to a mosfet issue.
We are usual to say "after you burnt with the soup, you'll blow also on ice cream", don't fall on this, it is meaningless evaluate a complete euc just comparing mosfets, and from a tech point of view there are not cheap or expensive, poor or good but only the right one for your application.
The Master fail you reported is scaring exactly because it is not a mosfet fail, but an unexplained one, it was running at a very low speed (compared wtih Master performances) at high charge battery status (90%) and euc suddenly powered off, nothing is broken, it works perfectly, this is really scaring.
 

[RagingGrandpa]

2 hours ago, Warxcell said:

So basically - what's your advice?

Get an Extreme, from a reputable vendor with at least 1-year warranty for defects.

[bpong]

warxcell, are you in a hurry to get a new wheel or can you afford to wait till the V14 reviews start coming in ? i can only suggest to have patience in your situation cause 3000$+ is alot of money.  there is not enuf info on the V14 - once you have more factual info on the V14,  then you can give yourself the luxury of making a more informed decision...  the various videos contain repeated info do not count....

[meepmeepmayer]

What about a Patton? Of the wheels available (and known) now, it's what I would choose. Waiting a little will give you user experiences with the Adventure (V14 - might be really good) and Extreme (and Commander Mini).

Note the Master has a bigger tire size than all the other wheels mentioned in this thread (including your old Nikola), so if you want torque, I would go for the smaller tire size of all those others.

[Warxcell]

29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

What about a Patton? Of the wheels available (and known) now, it's what I would choose. Waiting a little will give you user experiences with the Adventure (V14 - might be really good) and Extreme (and Commander Mini).

Note the Master has a bigger tire size than all the other wheels mentioned in this thread (including your old Nikola), so if you want torque, I would go for the smaller tire size of all those others.

Patton seems to be the most expensive and worst of all - 3299 EUR here, no seat - no smart BMS, no temperature sensors, no pads, etc. Yeah, it has a lot of torque - but seems V14 and extreme will have the same torque.

And kinda V14 it already proven - because it will be using same controller as V13 - which seems to have a lot ot headroom.

Master is considered only because its at sale now - 2400 EUR with 2 years warranty.

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, Warxcell said:

And kinda V14 it already proven - because it will be using same controller as V13 - which seems to have a lot ot headroom.

V13 -> 126 V.

Adventure: 

(1) 134.4 V Raptor controller

(2) 134.4 V battery packs and more advanced smart BMS

(3) Linkage suspension: slider, rising rate linkage, progressively-wound coil-over shock, all new to Inmotion.

(4) new motor

(5) swappable battery pack capability, first time for Inmotion

(6) Chassis, completely new, from the ground up.

(7) Firmware.

Maybe the pedals are the same.  

I have ridden the V11, V12, and V13. I found that all three ride very differently. I have no idea how the Adventure will ride like.

Ride quality and ride characteristics are all unknowns.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by techyiam

[on one]

If I had the money, and I didn't already own a great wheel, Ninebot Z10, then I would totally put a down payment on the Inmotion Adventure and wear a lot of gear while ride-proofing it. Heck, it's got a 2 year warranty, so once I learned to trust it, I would be having a blast, like I do already on my Z10.

[MadewithAgedVanilla]

Keep in mind, the Master really benefits from additional bumpers and fairings. The Grizzla kit runs about $250 but there are cheaper ways to protect the wheel. So yes, Master is a fantastic deal, but it needs some TLC. Keep in mind, the price will drop even further as Begode releases the V4 Master.

I have a V2 Master 50e with the Grizzla Kit and Powerknobz and it had been fantastic on the trails. The seated riding experience is just as fun, which is an advantage of the larger tire. 

[techyiam]

Master, Extreme, or Adventure?

None of the three if I have to choose now. If I have to choose now, I would choose the Patton, Sherman-S, or the V13.

If I forgo reliability and unforeseen issues, then it is a very different ball game.

If the Adventure is proven in 2024, and I like its ride qualities and characteristics, then it would be the Adventure.

By 2024, the Extreme could surprise us too.

Edited September 23, 2023 by techyiam

[Phonoman]

I feel you, buddy. Been losing hours on end researching as well. My Nikola still runs fine, tho, but lately I'm also constantly looking for a complete upgrade (range, speed, quality suspension, smart BMS). Except I need to factor in weight (living on the 4th floor.. x] ) and it needs to be rainproof as I'm riding all-year-long (probably will get A2 for winter snow&salts).

So far the Extreme seems to check all boxes while being the "LIGHTEST" of 35kg. And Begode doing so much work /w community to improve it makes me believe it's the "smart" choice. But yeah.. sadly the best quality decision seems to be just waiting impatiently. 

[meepmeepmayer]

When you have a EUC and then suddenly you don't (because it's broken), it's an awful feeling, you really don't want to wait! Are you willing to wait, or do you feel like you need a new one quickly?

[Warxcell]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:20 PM, techyiam said:

Master, Extreme, or Adventure?

None of the three if I have to choose now. If I have to choose now, I would choose the Patton, Sherman-S, or the V13.

If I forgo reliability and unforeseen issues, then it is a very different ball game.

If the Adventure is proven in 2024, and I like its ride qualities and characteristics, then it would be the Adventure.

By 2024, the Extreme surprise us too.

Got you - will wait for reviews. 

On 9/22/2023 at 7:11 PM, earthtwin said:

If I had the money, and I didn't already own a great wheel, Ninebot Z10, then I would totally put a down payment on the Inmotion Adventure and wear a lot of gear while ride-proofing it. Heck, it's got a 2 year warranty, so once I learned to trust it, I would be having a blast, like I do already on my Z10.

Everything here has 2 years warranty anyway, I'm from europe.  

 

21 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

When you have a EUC and then suddenly you don't (because it's broken), it's an awful feeling, you really don't want to wait! Are you willing to wait, or do you feel like you need a new one quickly?

I can wait. I ride my learning wheel now, InMotion V8 and soon (1-2 weeks) I expect the new motherboard (replaced by warranty) to arrive. 
probably the best time to buy new wheel would be around march 2024 - I'm still recovering from broken wrist.




Anyone knows if Extreme have same controller as EX30? Or its brand new? Also does anyone know if there is communication between motherboard and BMS (for example if there is something wrong with the battery - will the wheel tilt you back and alarm you?)

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Warxcell said:

Anyone knows if Extreme have same controller as EX30?

Different controller.

From ewheels.com website:

EX30

Quote

• Controller: 36xMOSFETS (TO-263), 7 Capacitors

Extreme

Quote

• Controller: 24 High-Performance MOSFET

 

[on one]

6 hours ago, Warxcell said:

Everything here has 2 years warranty anyway, I'm from europe.  

That's a good point. I wonder what the process of getting the warranty work completed was actually like? It makes me wonder about if it could be a lot of down time on a first generation Inmotion Adventure that was constantly getting a warranty repair.

[on one]

It's confusing to me because you are saying that your dealer sent you a board to install yourself, but every warranty always say that if the owner works on his own product then the warranty is considered void.

[on one]

That's why I just bought a product without a warranty, because what good is a warranty that is de-facto un-usable.

[Cerbera]

12 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

It's confusing to me because you are saying that your dealer sent you a board to install yourself, but every warranty always say that if the owner works on his own product then the warranty is considered void.

No no, with EUCs warranty is much more about getting the parts. And as most wheels these days are monster big and heavy, and not everyone has a dealer nearby, if you can fit things at home yourself it is often far more convenient to do so. I consider it quite helpful that our warranties allow for this, as there is often a lot of worry and downtime associated with sending your machine off to be fixed. 

[on one]

Yes, good point @Cerbera; it makes me wonder… what’s better, a full replacement of the unit through Amazon, or piecemeal repairs from my dealer, or would I have the option to just send my Adventure back to factory for a complete review and repair?