mrelwood Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 9 hours ago, macgyvercanada said: Battery looks fine in my Sept 11 screenshot. Your screenshot shows a highly averaged voltage reading at a single moment in time. What Inmotion checks in their logs are a large amount of various pieces of data at very tight intervals over a large period of time. A wild guess is that they have several thousand more instances of data than your single lacking datapoint. If they see that the battery has given an error at one time, I’d be inclined to believe them. If they see a battery error on Sep 3rd and your wheel locked up due to a battery error on Sep 11th, it’s safe to say that the battery has given multiple errors and pretty much certainly will keep giving them. Not sure how much more confirmation you were expecting to get. The battery has issues and is not safe to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 2, 2023 Author Share Posted October 2, 2023 Right, right right right.... ... ... anyone want to buy a banged-up V11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 10 minutes ago, macgyvercanada said: Right, right right right.... ... ... anyone want to buy a banged-up V11? Still issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 2, 2023 Author Share Posted October 2, 2023 I do know a fella who works on battery packs. He could likely rebuild the pack but it would likely end up being with a different make/model/batch of cells; i believe that 100% replacement is the way to go here. But would having each of the two battery packs being made up of different cells be a problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) If the packs are connected in parallel it isn't a big deal. The pack with lower resistance will work a bit harder under larger currents. But swapping the cells won't fix the problem if the bms is at fault. I don't know how the packs are monitored on the V11. It seems they aren't quite connected in parallel. The inputs are separate. It's hard to guarantee you won't see an error. But if that's the case, then swapping a single pack on one side would exhibit errors as well. (Original packs, one new one old) If Inmotion allows this then swapping cells on a functional bms, on one side, shouldn't be a problem. Edited October 2, 2023 by alcatraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) OK so I will be bringing my V11 back to the local repair shop; the owner has built and rebuilt many battery packs and has a selection of spot-welders for different battery projects. We'll start with diagnostics and testing, look for bad cells or loose connections... hoping for a quick & easy fix. Edited October 5, 2023 by macgyvercanada 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 8, 2023 Author Share Posted October 8, 2023 Good news: I've got the nice Samsung 50E cells (40 per pack), and the BMS units are working fine! Bad news: A group of 12 dead cells has been ID'ed in one of the packs. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) Nice! How can you be sure the bms is fine? Sometimes balancing is malfunctioning and then the pack dies. I'm not saying that's happened here but just be careful. Edited October 9, 2023 by alcatraz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 12, 2023 Author Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) Tales from the Repair Shop... Quote I have both of these packs apart they are all showing proper voltage across all cells All groups are showing the same voltage on everything Looking for dead cells is actually easier with the batteries discharged about halfway All 4 fuses per side are all showing proper resistance Caps are all fine discharge fetts are all closed Gate and drain are closed Nothing sticky HOWEVER the board here Which is why I'm thinking it gave a service error It thought the hall sensor was gone Oh I found it Both of these r200s are shorted One second Does this have a USB port ? AHH HA I found out what's causing the issue The USB port shorted and has been draining the power off the board constantly 5v even when it's off Those resistors are there to prevent the USB circuit from shorting the entire board usb ports are evil Oh OH Its 4 TINY welds per battery Top 3 popped off I've checked almost every weld on this side only 3 let go Some of them look like the welds from the factory were sketchy to begin with The way they have these made is kinda janky Its essentially 4 36v packs They used 2.0 m nickle plated steel connectors but the spot welder they used wasn't strong enough to bite all the way 2 welds per tab is abysmal quality So the USB port is angry those resistors are replaced and working no more short Both packs are spot welded but I can't get deep deep into the middle of the pack without tearing the entire thing apart and having to rebuild both packs entirely Which I CAN do i don't know how deep into this you want to get I mean we're essentially in the things ribcage hahaha Went from 34.4 one side 40.2 other Both show 40.2 now Both show proper voltage now Edited October 12, 2023 by macgyvercanada 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Great feedback. Thanks! Other V11 users could inspect their spotwelds. You'd think that two welds also create more heat = bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 16, 2023 Author Share Posted October 16, 2023 The issue seemed to be that the welds didn't fully penetrate the materials; there were multiple on each battery but many welds had let go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 18, 2023 Author Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) After running the V11 with repaired battery packs for about 10km while commuting around town I decided today that I'd finsh the same dirt trail I had my big cut-out on last year. I drove out and parked at a trailhead near where I had my bail. Nice day; the woods by the ocean smelled so good. I got about 10km down the trail before starting to get "please repair" messages with tiltbacks. I actually got the first message & tiltback while at a complete stop with one foot on the ground while I was taking a photo. I got another one as soon as I tried to get going again. I decided to abandon the trip and head straight back to the trailhead at modest speeds. With faceplanting on my mind, I got more than a dozen "please repair" messages along the way back. Each time the tiltback would bring me to a gentle stop. Sometimes the error state would go away after a brief moment, sometimes I'd have to turn it off & on, and sometimes I'd turn it back on and the error would still be there. In one instance the error state lasted less than a second and it stopped before the "please repair" message could get out. Once I got 4 or 5 messages in a row and was at the side of the trail for almost a minute waiting for the error state to clear and the tiltback to end. Through some stops and starts, eventually I found myself about 2km from the trailhead. I was coming down a long gentle hill when the wheel threw another error and tiltback; I stopped trailside (again) and after a moment it came out of error state (again) and so I hopped back on (again). The power immediately cut out completely and I pitched forward; I had just let go of the handle so I easily caught myself and the wheel. The wheel did power right back on but I decided to walk the last couple of km's for safety's sake... I trolleyed with power on for the last 2km or so and there were no more errors along the way. It's noteworthy that I only got these errors at fairly low-to-zero speeds (< 25 km/h'ish). Once I'd get up to a gentle crusing speed it would run error-free until I slowed down a bit and it would randomly throw battery errors again. This is the same behaviour I was seeing a couple months ago. These errors (and the ones I had in the summer) all occurred between 50% to 75% battery charge. I've sent the log report to Inmotion already, for what it's worth. Edited October 18, 2023 by macgyvercanada 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Check the pack voltages (in the app?). Is the error because the difference between them is too high? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Everything was working until you started pushing the wheel a bit yes? Is it possible to monitor the pack voltages mid ride? Like in eucworld, logging both packs? Maybe one pack still has weak/broken welds so the voltage sag is high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 It's dangerous to overheat the cells at the positive end. If the welds are weak there causing a lot of heat, it's bad for the cells. But we don't really know for sure it is the welds. Could be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) Can you only reproduce the error by riding hard? If not, then try one pack but don't push it. It's possible both packs work on their own but not together. You'd need to be careful not to trip the fuses/limits. Edited October 19, 2023 by alcatraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 10 hours ago, alcatraz said: Check the pack voltages (in the app?). Is the error because the difference between them is too high? Checked a few times; they were either identical or off by 0.1 Volts 10 hours ago, alcatraz said: Everything was working until you started pushing the wheel a bit yes? Is it possible to monitor the pack voltages mid ride? Like in eucworld, logging both packs? Maybe one pack still has weak/broken welds so the voltage sag is high. Much the opposite: I was getting problems when I stopped pushing the wheel. Also, both packs were opened up at the repair shop last week; broken welds were repaired and additional conducting strip was added just in case. 10 hours ago, alcatraz said: Can you only reproduce the error by riding hard? If not, then try one pack but don't push it. It's possible both packs work on their own but not together. You'd need to be careful not to trip the fuses/limits. Opposite; only seeing issues below ~25 km/h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 I'll admit it. It's a weird one. Way out of my league. The good news sort of is that it doesn't appear to be dangerous. How about logging (all data fields) and reproduce the problem. Even if we can't help you, Inmotion support might want the same. It could be something we're not seeing when we measure stationary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 Quote How about logging (all data fields) and reproduce the problem. EUC World has better data logging than the Inmotion app? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted October 19, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, macgyvercanada said: EUC World has better data logging than the Inmotion app? First of all, EUC World data log is at any time available for you to review/analyze. It's also saved in open and well-supported CSV format. Inmotion app can download detailed data log directly from the wheel, but it's not available for the user and only sent to Inmotion engineers. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 27, 2023 Author Share Posted October 27, 2023 EUC data 2023-10-27 171452.csv I have admittedly been procrastinating all week, just putting off any further testing in favor of sulking about it. But today I had my V8F out for a commute and I was all geared up so I decided to do some logging on the V11 with EUC World. I only travelled 650m and got a few errors toward the end of my trip. My log file is attached, and below I've noted the time in the log when each tiltback started. I went up the steep hill on my street and back down (nice and slow) with no errors. I got my first tiltback when I was stopped at the mailbox (17:19:08) and then a tiltforward, probably because I was gently trollying backwards (17:19:24). I started walking home (17:19:36) and got a long tiltback on the way but kept on trollying (17:19:53) Arrived home (17:21:00) and immediately got another tiltback (17:21:02) before powering off and closing the log. I've looked though the log file and I don't see anything remarkable around those timestamps other than the tilt angle... The alarms didn't even make it into the log, but the wheel asked me to "please repair" 7 or 8 times (I got more than a few at the 17:19:53 timestamp). Anyone see anything of note in there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 28, 2023 Author Share Posted October 28, 2023 EUC World log file shows a bit of voltage wandering but nothing too crazy so far as i can determine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 So you remember when the error appeared? Post the log and the timestamp of when it happened. Let the people here have a look. Somebody might have seen it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgyvercanada Posted October 28, 2023 Author Share Posted October 28, 2023 10 hours ago, alcatraz said: So you remember when the error appeared? Post the log and the timestamp of when it happened. Let the people here have a look. Somebody might have seen it before. I posted the log and all of the timestamps in this thread yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 hour ago, macgyvercanada said: I posted the log and all of the timestamps in this thread yesterday Oh, sorry. Good job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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