The more I look...

[techyiam]

21 minutes ago, bpong said:

it may not have the plush ride that the veteran eucs have but for the price,  it makes up for that in power and speed.  the only thing i wonder is whether or not it has any glaring problems still,  with its latest V4 version.  problems with either the firmware, or suspension (which i havent seen any postings lately on the master topics...), or QC issues with its build...  i have tried to read some of the past postings of the master but i dont see much on the latest V4 version posted.

I see that you have come full circle. I have done this a few times, leaving no stones unturned. 

You also have to weigh in whether the Master will require modding out of the box. For some riders, the stock suspension may be good enough. But should you need to, are you an owner who doesn't mind doing work on your brand new wheel?

I do like the idea of a 20" suspension wheel with less than 3000 Wh battery for street use. Unfortunately, right now, there aren't that many choices. 

I think Inmotion needs to do a 20" suspension wheel.

Incidentally, smartwheels.ca is selling the S22 Pro for $3600 CAD.

[novazeus]

i just bought a 7-16-23 s22 pro that has lots of upgrades from my original batch one model i paid $2599 for the first one from freemotion. king song sent out nice ball bearing nylon sliders that work and i changed the motor to 4000watts for $100 from alien's ride and $50 for a michelin tire.

paid $2500 for the pro. 

the king song s22 pro is a great buy right now in the wake of these new releases. if u don't go over 40mph, and i don't, the portability of a 75 pound wheel is nice. 

if i get a good price, i'm gonna get the latest s22 pro+ with 50s batteries when they are made.

[bpong]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I see that you have come full circle. I have done this a few times, leaving no stones unturned. 

You also have to weigh in whether the Master will require modding out of the box. For some riders, the stock suspension may be good enough. But should you need to, are you an owner who doesn't mind doing work on your brand new wheel?

I do like the idea of a 20" suspension wheel with less than 3000 Wh battery for street use. Unfortunately, right now, there aren't that many choices. 

I think Inmotion needs to do a 20" suspension wheel.

Incidentally, smartwheels.ca is selling the S22 Pro for $3600 CAD.

thanx techyiam for the reply.  its been a long time waiting and its abit refreshing to look back and see what has already been tried, tested and trued over the past at least 2 years.   and yes, i have looked at inventory at rideone.ca and smartwheel.ca.  its funny about the S22 - it was one of the first i tried last summer for a very short test ride and the suspension didnt seem to have any thing wrong.  but you cant tell with a short ride unless that ride was on a trail.  and thankfully, the shortcomings of the S22 rollers is well documented so i will stay away from that wheel.  as for the master as you pointed out,  my plan if i decide on the V4 master,  is to ride it to see how the suspension works and if it needs another shock.  with my riding habits,  i highly doubt i will find anything wrong with its suspension cause its the only suspension euc i will have !!!  ... marty backe had a good video on replacing the master with an aftermarket coil shock to get a plusher ride but i will wait and see how it rides on the stock shock,  if i get the master.

there is sooooooooo much documentation on the new eucs but its been only a few months.  the Patton i think is probably the most documented 'new' euc currently,  closely followed by the misgivings of the T4, the extreme (which one user posted his broken part of the extreme which i think was a badly designed part to begin with),  and a very long topic on the ex30.  the Patton seemed interesting but its focus on trail riding caused me to lose interest pretty quick.  kingsong has 2 new eucs out too...

so i am left going back a few years to re-examine other successful euc models that are still relevant.  the master seems like one of them.  i have also looked at the sherman S model too but its heft is abit of a concern, being 97+lbs...  and for some reason,  the S22 keeps coming into focus although the roller debacle keeps me shying away from it as well...lots to chose from if one steps back 1-2 years... im pretty handy when it comes to building 'stuff' and following modding instructions,  but IMO its best to leave something alone if its working well to begin with...

[bpong]

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

i just bought a 7-16-23 s22 pro that has lots of upgrades from my original batch one model i paid $2599 for the first one from freemotion. king song sent out nice ball bearing nylon sliders that work and i changed the motor to 4000watts for $100 from alien's ride and $50 for a michelin tire.

paid $2500 for the pro. 

the king song s22 pro is a great buy right now in the wake of these new releases. if u don't go over 40mph, and i don't, the portability of a 75 pound wheel is nice. 

if i get a good price, i'm gonna get the latest s22 pro+ with 50s batteries when they are made.

novazeus, sounds like you got alot of experience on the S22.  so you havent experienced many problems with the roller-based slider setup ?

[novazeus]

3 minutes ago, bpong said:

novazeus, sounds like you got alot of experience on the S22.  so you havent experienced many problems with the roller-based slider setup ?

honestly, i just took off the old sliders and installed these new ones. if i had known how easy the s22 is to work on, i woulda done it months ago. gotta be the easiest wheel to work on, another reason for my multiple purchases. 

this might help. these guys know and ride better than me, and they still like the s22.

 

[bpong]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Incidentally, smartwheels.ca is selling the S22 Pro for $3600 CAD.

just received response from smartwheels customer service: (i had to confirm, didnt make sense pro is less than orig S22...)

"S22 would be purged out, Dont believe we will be bringing it anymore however S22 Pro is in stock and yes the price is $3599 plus tax"

wow, that is a major price reduction...

[novazeus]

17 minutes ago, bpong said:

just received response from smartwheels customer service: (i had to confirm, didnt make sense pro is less than orig S22...)

"S22 would be purged out, Dont believe we will be bringing it anymore however S22 Pro is in stock and yes the price is $3599 plus tax"

wow, that is a major price reduction...

check the serial number for the build date. 

if studio amg still has this one, it's 7-16-23 with the good motor and sliders.

it's the 2220 lg m50lt version. studio amg is fine to deal with but euc's aren't really their expertise i don't think. 

i was a previous customer and offered $2500 delivered and it's sitting next to me now. not a lynx but $1700 cheaper. i still want a lynx after the improvements of later batches are made. just like this 3rd or 4th edition of s22. if it wasn't a great value, i wouldn't want a third. 

two things i'd like to see, a race between a s22 pro and a lynx, and somebody putting on a michelin pilot street 2 80/90-14 because it's the only michelin that will fit the 90mm opening. i'm sure it can be mounted with a tube, but after using these bolt on right angle valves for tubeless, i don't want innertubes anymore.

https://studio-amg.com/products/king-song-s22-pro-1-776wh-battery-4-000w-motor

i've owned 5 king song wheels. they are a little quirky software/firmware wise, u just learn to ignore their bullshit. why i'm happy i have two pros now, one brand new throwing the same code as the old one. just ignore and ride. 

Edited January 4 by novazeus

[Panzer04]

On 1/5/2024 at 5:10 AM, bpong said:

great title to this topic !

considering that most new eucs in the past 12 months are, well, still relatively new,  i started looking back at past eucs that now have gone thru a few versions.  the bg master comes to mind (V4) and looking at this euc,  i dont see why this euc has been overlooked for those who (i am one of them) commute quite abit and primarily ride on the street most of the time.  it still has more than enuf power for my use and its suspension has been revised.  it may not have the plush ride that the veteran eucs have but for the price,  it makes up for that in power and speed.  the only thing i wonder is whether or not it has any glaring problems still,  with its latest V4 version.  problems with either the firmware, or suspension (which i havent seen any postings lately on the master topics...), or QC issues with its build...  i have tried to read some of the past postings of the master but i dont see much on the latest V4 version posted.

Owning a master V4, I can say it's a good, high performance and safe EUC if you set it up right. That being said, you need to set it up right. Stock from the factory to get the best suspension feel and performance you'll at a minimum want to swap the air shock for probably a 1000lb+ coil shock, as the air shock config is just.. bad, heavily preloaded with no recourse aside from a new linkage if you want to use an air shock. Going further, it may also be worth ensuring the sliders aren't binding, for the best suspension response (a fairly annoying task, not sure if it's worth the effort but I did it).

PWM tiltback is excellent, and can be set fairly high while still allowing 70kph speeds with loads of safety margin.

Aside from the shoddy tolerances on the suspension system, I've found everything else about the wheel pretty solid. That being said, I'm a tinkerer with a 3D printer, and have also covered it in pads. I can easily see someone who is mainly interested in riding going for a different wheel that is "more complete" out of the box.

On 1/5/2024 at 5:10 AM, bpong said:

great title to this topic !

considering that most new eucs in the past 12 months are, well, still relatively new,  i started looking back at past eucs that now have gone thru a few versions.  the bg master comes to mind (V4) and looking at this euc,  i dont see why this euc has been overlooked for those who (i am one of them) commute quite abit and primarily ride on the street most of the time.  it still has more than enuf power for my use and its suspension has been revised.  it may not have the plush ride that the veteran eucs have but for the price,  it makes up for that in power and speed.  the only thing i wonder is whether or not it has any glaring problems still,  with its latest V4 version.  problems with either the firmware, or suspension (which i havent seen any postings lately on the master topics...), or QC issues with its build...  i have tried to read some of the past postings of the master but i dont see much on the latest V4 version posted.

Owning a master V4, I can say it's a good, high performance and safe EUC if you set it up right. That being said, you need to set it up right. Stock from the factory to get the best suspension feel and performance you'll at a minimum want to swap the air shock for probably a 1000lb+ coil shock, as the air shock config is just.. bad, heavily preloaded with no recourse aside from a new linkage if you want to use an air shock. Going further, it may also be worth ensuring the sliders aren't binding, for the best suspension response (a fairly annoying task, not sure if it's worth the effort but I did it).

PWM tiltback is excellent, and can be set fairly high while still allowing 70kph speeds with loads of safety margin.

Aside from the shoddy tolerances on the suspension system, I've found everything else about the wheel pretty solid. That being said, I'm a tinkerer with a 3D printer, and have also covered it in pads. I can easily see someone who is mainly interested in riding going for a different wheel that is "more complete" out of the box.

[rumpel]

I have a similar problem as the author of the thread. I would like to swap my KS18 XL for something faster, to achieve the same speeds, i.e., 70 km/h. I considered wheels with suspension, but their sizes discourage me. Suspension always adds a few centimeters to the height of the wheel. It also adds weight. I don't know what to buy. It seems to me that a V12 with a 16-inch wheel might be too small. So, I started looking at older wheels like the Sherman, Commander, RS or EX.N and concluded that these wheels offer the most for their price. They have a huge battery, which is good because it provides a sufficient power reserve in case of acceleration but their weight is comparable to the weight of 16-inch wheels with suspension adding the complexity of the suspension and the issues associated with it, I wonder if, riding mainly on streets or bike paths, I really need to pay for suspension with the weight and size of the wheel. What do you think ?

[Panzer04]

13 hours ago, rumpel said:

I have a similar problem as the author of the thread. I would like to swap my KS18 XL for something faster, to achieve the same speeds, i.e., 70 km/h. I considered wheels with suspension, but their sizes discourage me. Suspension always adds a few centimeters to the height of the wheel. It also adds weight. I don't know what to buy. It seems to me that a V12 with a 16-inch wheel might be too small. So, I started looking at older wheels like the Sherman, Commander, RS or EX.N and concluded that these wheels offer the most for their price. They have a huge battery, which is good because it provides a sufficient power reserve in case of acceleration but their weight is comparable to the weight of 16-inch wheels with suspension adding the complexity of the suspension and the issues associated with it, I wonder if, riding mainly on streets or bike paths, I really need to pay for suspension with the weight and size of the wheel. What do you think ?

I think suspension adds a healthy safety factor at higher speeds. Bumps need to be significantly bigger to unsettle you on a suspension wheel. I feel like it gets more valuable the bigger and heavier the wheel, as more unsprung weight gets thrown around from a bump as well.

[Funky]

14 hours ago, rumpel said:

I have a similar problem as the author of the thread. I would like to swap my KS18 XL for something faster, to achieve the same speeds, i.e., 70 km/h. I considered wheels with suspension, but their sizes discourage me. Suspension always adds a few centimeters to the height of the wheel. It also adds weight. I don't know what to buy. It seems to me that a V12 with a 16-inch wheel might be too small. So, I started looking at older wheels like the Sherman, Commander, RS or EX.N and concluded that these wheels offer the most for their price. They have a huge battery, which is good because it provides a sufficient power reserve in case of acceleration but their weight is comparable to the weight of 16-inch wheels with suspension adding the complexity of the suspension and the issues associated with it, I wonder if, riding mainly on streets or bike paths, I really need to pay for suspension with the weight and size of the wheel. What do you think ?

That speed alone means big euc.. If you want to actually go those 70km/h, you would want to get something bit faster - so you can safely do those 70km/h..

Also do you actually plan to ride 70km/h on V12?  All i can say is - Good Luck.

When you have done a reality check and have shallowed the size and weight of big wheels - then lets talk.  Naturally the faster wheel you want - the bigger it will be.

As for suspension and weight - it adds about 5kg. So not really worth talking about when wheel is already in 40kg weight.. Can't be compared to 18xl.

 

Get 18" wheel for cruising that can do at least 80km/h, if you want to ride 70km/h somewhat safely.. And yes suspension is life saver at those speeds! <<< That coming from a guy who hates suspension and it's added complexity. (18xl owner also.)

 

You're more or less going from bicycle level to motorcycle. So? What do you want?

Edited February 10 by Funky

[Frolic0415]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

Also do you actually plan to ride 70km/h on V12?  All i can say is - Good Luck.

I do every time I go for a ride on my V12 and haven't had any issues so far, have hit 73kph on a few occasions but most of the time hover between 65 and 71kph.

[techyiam]

17 minutes ago, Frolic0415 said:

I do every time I go for a ride on my V12 and haven't had any issues so far, have hit 73kph on a few occasions but most of the time hover between 65 and 71kph.

When you are riding between 65 km/h and 71 km/h, how is your range?

Also, were you riding on pretty smooth roads when you go at those speeds?

[Frolic0415]

7 minutes ago, techyiam said:

When you are riding between 65 km/h and 71 km/h, how is your range?

Also, were you riding on pretty smooth roads when you go at those speeds?

Between 50-60km of range if I'm pushing it the whole time, I'm also a fairly light rider (57kg).

Mixture of normal roads and crappy roads filled with potholes.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Frolic0415 said:

I do every time I go for a ride on my V12 and haven't had any issues so far, have hit 73kph on a few occasions but most of the time hover between 65 and 71kph.

Hot Diggity Damn Scott - you are a brave one!

I would never ride over said max speed! And even close to it..

Edited February 10 by Funky

[varamontelo]

On a V12, 70 km/h, with 57 kg, waouh, golden legs. 

[Mono]

11 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

I think suspension adds a healthy safety factor at higher speeds. Bumps need to be significantly bigger to unsettle you on a suspension wheel.

I suspect that riding skills are much more relevant in this respect than suspension. If suspension deters from developing the smoothly-and-with-close-eyes-riding-over-bumps skill, even the opposite may become true over time.

11 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

I feel like it gets more valuable the bigger and heavier the wheel, as more unsprung weight gets thrown around from a bump as well.

I guess so too.

[Panzer04]

12 hours ago, Mono said:

I suspect that riding skills are much more relevant in this respect than suspension. If suspension deters from developing the smoothly-and-with-close-eyes-riding-over-bumps skill, even the opposite may become true over time.

I guess so too.

That's not what I said. Given the choice between a suspension and a non-suspension wheel, aside from the weight penalty the suspension wheel is superior. Suspension wheels reduce the work your legs have to do, so you don't get as tired, they can absorb high frequency bumps better and make larger bumps less jarring.

Skill is always going to be very relevant to riding EUCs, and I strongly encourage riders to learn how to hop curbs, ride rocky terrain, etc. I just strongly dislike it when it's suggested as a solution - yes, you can compensate for problems using skill but that doesn't mean an engineered solution like suspension isn't strictly better than the alternative. I've ridden a 16X offroad, and it's fine. In some ways it's nicer than something with suspension like a Master, but that's due to the weight and pedal height, not the lack of suspension

If someone is going to buy a heavy wheel today, it may as well have suspension. The only reason not to have it is because the form factor (small/lightweight eg. Mten4) or price precludes it, or if you seriously need a near-0 maintenance wheel (I doubt this applies for 99.9% of people). Lightweight wheels is fair enough, suspension seems to typically add a 3-5kg weight penalty in current wheels.

 

Edited February 11 by Panzer04

[Mono]

11 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

That's not what I said.

I know, I said it and I did exactly because you did not say it 

I understand the dynamical advantages of suspension and I also think that suspension makes riding safer when everything else is equal, in particular for fast riding where safety is more of an issue.

I was just wondering whether everything else is likely to be equal when we add suspension. There is this phenomenon called risk compensation.

That is, suspension may not only have the obvious disadvantages of added cost, weight, size, and maintenance, but also the less obvious that it may hinder learning safety relevant skills and (which I didn't write before) may cause bad riders go faster and get hurt more severely when they crash. We don't know whether it does, but it's not outrageous to think that it would. That's why I wrote "if" above.

I guess we disagree on the importance of the role of skill as "a solution" to the safety question. My safety measures ordered by relevance would be

1. adapting riding behavior and speed to the environment and skill level
2. skills
3. equipment like suspension or gear

The costs of these are quite different too: 1. is a continuous psychological and perception challenge, 2. needs time and dedicated training, 3. costs some money once.

Sorry for the derailment.

Edited February 11 by Mono

[Mono]

9 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

The only reason not to have [suspension] is [...] if you seriously need a near-0 maintenance wheel (I doubt this applies for 99.9% of people).

I'd think at least 50% of the people want a near-0 maintenance wheel, me included. If more riders would be women, this percentage would go up too. Sure, I don't "seriously need" near-0 maintenance, but this may not be a good qualifier to go by.

From my cycling experience however I would say that suspension could easily be near-0 maintenance. I rode several full suspension bicycles for thousands and thousands of km and spent zero time on maintenance of the suspension, not a single second ever.

[Panzer04]

12 hours ago, Mono said:

I'd think at least 50% of the people want a near-0 maintenance wheel, me included. If more riders would be women, this percentage would go up too. Sure, I don't "seriously need" near-0 maintenance, but this may not be a good qualifier to go by.

From my cycling experience however I would say that suspension could easily be near-0 maintenance. I rode several full suspension bicycles for thousands and thousands of km and spent zero time on maintenance of the suspension, not a single second ever.

Suspension necessarily implies slightly more maintenance than otherwise is the only reason I mention it. Even then, I suppose at worse it seizes and you are left with a wheel no less worse than a non-suspension wheel , so perhaps this is not really a downside except for the premium paid for the suspension wheel.

I do suppose suspension can harm learning, but even the best suspension tends not to completely damp bad bumps etc. I agree that suspension is not the be all and end all - merely that a wheel with suspension is almost strictly superior to one without, all else being equal (including skill)

I very much agree with your assessment of the importance of different factors - Ride sensibly above all to avoid getting in situations where you skill needs to save you.

[Mono]

5 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

even the best suspension tends not to completely damp bad bumps etc. I agree that suspension is not the be all and end all - merely that a wheel with suspension is almost strictly superior to one without, all else being equal (including skill)

From the casual cycling perspective, I rode unsuspended and full suspension bicycles for many many years. My final conclusion was that I'd rather have a 2.5" wide tire than a suspension. Suspension just isn't that magical as I thought it would be, at least for casual cycling. My experience with suspension EUCs is very limited, but given that the suspension systems are the same and how much people discuss adjustment of suspension parameters I sense the same here. Superior, sure, but superior enough to pay the weight penalty...

[rumpel]

I just order Kingsong S19 pro with possibility to change it to s22 pro or s16 pro. I will see. I do not wanted to ride 70 kph I have just standard to set my first speed alarm -10 km of max speed. That is why on my Ks 18 Xl I set 40 kph as a first alarm which means I never go over 42 kph.  I saw KINGSONG s19 and s22 pro personally not a big difference in weight as well but I prefer a little smaller tire and s19 having 100V and powerfull engine gives a headroom to safely accelerate to 50 - 55 or even 60 in case I need to go on a street. I ride carefully, have done on my unicycles around 11K km and I never had any accident so going 70 kph was not my intention. Thanks for opinions I took it into the consideration that is why I’m buying suspension wheel.

[Rapha Assunção]

Está gostando do S19? Pode nos contar sua experiência com esta roda?

Mod edit: please post in English here.

Google Translate:

Quote

Are you enjoying S19? Can you tell us about your experience with this wheel?

Edited April 27 by meepmeepmayer