RagingGrandpa Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 30 minutes ago, Asphalt said: it was a custom battery pack, without BMS, that was damaged in a crash. As a result of this fire, event organizers are considering banning EUCs from next year’s event. https://youtu.be/cS8jD05_t04 This ^ highlights an inevitable topic: competition and safety are naturally opposed concepts. Nearly all organized motorsports include equipment rules regarding safety. The OneWheel crowd has a head-start on organized PMD racing, but their class rules are still very simple. Basically: "Futuremotion," and "Open," where the Open classes have no formal safety requirements for the machines. OneWheels can and do burn, but with larger and larger battery packs, EUC's increase the hazard. To limit the risk, I'd like to see EUC events start with simple rules regarding competition, such as: Factory-original battery packs only. No addition or other customization of packs is permitted. Organizers may inspect equipment at any time during the event. @Amped Electric Games 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Cauac Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said: This ^ highlights an inevitable topic: competition and safety are naturally opposed concepts. Nearly all organized motorsports include equipment rules regarding safety. The OneWheel crowd has a head-start on organized PMD racing, but their class rules are still very simple. Basically: "Futuremotion," and "Open," where the Open classes have no formal safety requirements for the machines. OneWheels can and do burn, but with larger and larger battery packs, EUC's increase the hazard. To limit the risk, I'd like to see EUC events start with simple rules regarding competition, such as: Factory-original battery packs only. No addition or other customization of packs is permitted. Organizers may inspect equipment at any time during the event. @Amped Electric Games Excellent suggestion. I posted your suggestion in the pinned comment section of the YT video. I would add for Organizers to check equipment after a hard crash as well. All riders would be required to report crashes with their wheels for inspection. Edited June 22, 2023 by 5Cauac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted June 22, 2023 Author Share Posted June 22, 2023 It's important for all rules to be practical. I don't think we're expecting the organizers to become familiar with electrical testing and repair, nor to make judgement on the state of health of a battery pack. And, as we MTB riders know: crashes are routine, and almost never result in a battery fire. So keep it simple. Original packs. If it looks suspicious, we're planning to catch it ourselves (the organizers) through on-demand inspection, and if we miss it, we want the competitors that are on-site with you to tattle, because it's in their competitive interest to do so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanman Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) I like this one for the potential to drive high performance packs from the factory, an option or a model with smaller packs with high drain cells for short range racing for example. Edited June 22, 2023 by chanman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) It looks to me like the real issue is the event organizers didn't have a protocol to handle battery fires (or didn't execute it). Let's start there... Well, I'll start a protocol suggestion for them. Step #1. Do not place what amounts to a cross between a bomb and a flamethrower (lithium battery) next to a ... tree. Edited June 22, 2023 by level9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted June 22, 2023 Author Share Posted June 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, level9 said: Step #1. Do not place a flamethrower (lithium battery) next to a tree. @roghaj isn't dumb: if a battery is having a problem, put it somewhere that's easy to flood with water. Or in this case, somewhere the wheel can be easily put underwater. Worked great, no trees harmed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 5 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: @roghaj isn't dumb: if a battery is having a problem, put it somewhere that's easy to flood with water. Or in this case, somewhere the wheel can be easily put underwater. Worked great, no trees harmed! You don't screw around with lithium battery fires. You don't place them next to flammable objects, observe them for a while and hope for the best. Whether it's near the water or not is irrelevant. You might not even be able to get close enough to move it into the water once it goes full-flamethrower or simply explodes. It should have been immediately dumped and the area cleared. It's not about being dumb. It's about having experience/knowledge around lithium battery fires and that's on the event organizers for not having a protocol. I assume that's why they are trying to blame-shift it onto EUCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Smart bms only, for racing. Inspector checks voltage levels. Done. Distinguishing between diy and original packs alone is probably not enough to prevent this from happening again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted June 23, 2023 Author Share Posted June 23, 2023 Perfection is impossible; racing rules are about reducing risk. There are lots of reasons a pack could burn, and many of the reasons have nothing to do with cell voltage imbalance. The small fire at Shredfest3, involving a custom pack, a few hours after a violent crash, sounds unlikely to be related to cell balancing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Inspect voltages after a crash then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothamMike Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Going fast is more important than safety. At least to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gon2fast Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Having all participants sign a basic waiver around what the proper protocol is in the case of a crash or fire would be beneficial for these type of events (no questions or go home). From what I saw in the video it seemed like the wheel owner's refusal to submerge the wheel was the real risk factor. It pained me to see that person push back and jeopardize everyone's safety for the sake of a $3000 wheel that can be easily replaced. Can't replace a life or a forest so easily... extreme, I know. Also, having steel trash cans filled with water would be a good tool to have on hand, but wheels are getting so big a standard sized trash can might not cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 26 minutes ago, gon2fast said: From what I saw in the video it seemed like the wheel owner's refusal to submerge the wheel was the real risk factor. Even after it started flaming Roger EUC was still thinking about trying to get the pack off and save the wheel. Fortunately he thought better of it the more explosive it got, and even the owner seemed to agree with submersion in the end... at that point it was beyond obvious that wheel was never gonna roll again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbb Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 On 6/22/2023 at 1:23 PM, RagingGrandpa said: Factory-original battery packs only. The intent is good, but that phrasing might be a wee bit too rigid. People would need to find and install an original Gotway MSP time bomb and remove the Litech that Jason sent them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted June 26, 2023 Author Share Posted June 26, 2023 @sbb All of the original manufacturer-approved configurations should be allowed. In your RS example: "If ewheels ever sold it that way, it's allowed." Because Begode agreed to distribute new EUC's with LiTech's packs inside. Rules and regulations will always be the land of nitpicking, so don't fall into the trap of making the rules so long and wordy that people lose patience and stop reading. The important part is that the organizers agree amongst themselves about various examples of acceptable and unacceptable equipment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 I don't think there's cause for concern. If there's demand for a less regulated event, people will organize it themselves and get the participants and audience for it. Racing will always require a level of risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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