Could AI provide personally customizable wobble dampening algorithms to once and for all eliminate this hazardous susceptibility?

[weelwoman]

Perhaps AI could customize wobble dampening algorithms for individual wheels, tire pressure, unique muscular inputs, and so forth?  What do you tech wizards think?? Wobble prone nature of our treasured technology surely puts another damper (pun intended!) on global efforts toward minimally restricted universal legality .... and on widespread uptake of these ultra green transportation/sport 21st century technological wonders (: 

 

[mrelwood]

Something along these lines has been suggested before.

 Wobble is side to side movement. Motor provides front to back movement. Nothing you can do with the motor while riding would dampen a side to side oscillation to a notable degree.

 You’d need a heavy weight at the very front or the very rear of the wheel, that was controlled by a separate wobble controller that would sense the wobble and it’s exact movements.

 But since wobble is a new rider / tired feet issue, and there are already methods to dampen it if it still happens, you can already prevent it from causing further problems with great results.

Edited June 13, 2023 by mrelwood

[Wheelwoman]

Thankyou for your prompt and thoughtful feedback (BUT?) … though I am not very tech-wise I do wonder if closing the discussion due consideration that motor response is fore/aft vs wobbling is in a different plane MIGHT BE PREMATURE (??) .. remember when wheel becomes progressively divergent from fore/aft plane then the balance inputs of foot pressure become increasingly divergent from the intended foreword path .. is it possible that the self-balancing function is continuously increasing each side to side aberration by magnifying erroneous (tired/ inexperienced) inputs to the point they become logarithmic?? Come on guys and girls … weigh in on this (:  … 

[Funky]

Not needed.. Implanting more and more uncommon thing into wheels - will just lead to more problems. More things can go wrong and such..

 

At some point, when you have ridden enough.. You simply stop having wobbles. My point was ~300km. Afterwards i haven't had single wobble.

In case of most new ridders, wobbles happen because of to high PSI in tire. Going 35-40 PSI right from start - no wonder you are wobbling every time you accelerate or start braking. 25-30PSI is fine! Just don't jump curbs..

(Best tip to prevent wobbles.) Move your weight around.. Left/Right pedal. When wheel is going completely straight - that's the moment you can get wobbles. Even going 10cm left/right is enough to not get wobbles at all. DON'T ride in straight line!!!

As i have not gotten them once since, i don't even think about them.. Even if wheel starts wobbling - you can simply ride out of the wobble. By quick swipe left or right. Or if you are scared of doing that - simple slow deceleration while wobbling.. Yes it's scary when your legs are doing the "Harlem shake" left/right.. But you still can slow down and stop. Or slow down till the wobbles are gone. (Gorilla grip that EUC with legs. And hold onto it like it's loose bull ride.)

Or simply don't fight the EUC and go with the wobble.  Make your legs like wet noodles and go with it. < That's how i stopped my wobbles, while slowing down.  

Edited June 13, 2023 by Funky

[level9]

Theoretically possible. At least according to the AI 

Sounds like a very expensive EUC though.. and probably bulky.

 

> is there anything that can throw weight around for the purposes of balancing that will be faster than a human muscle twitch response

ChatGPT

Yes, there are devices and technologies that can respond faster than a human muscle twitch response for the purpose of balancing. One such example is an active stabilization system that utilizes sensors, actuators, and control algorithms to maintain balance.

These systems can be implemented in various applications, including robotics, prosthetics, and even some assistive devices for human balance. They typically use sensors to detect balance disturbances, such as accelerometers, gyroscopes, or force sensors. The information from these sensors is processed by control algorithms, which then activate actuators to make rapid adjustments and corrections to maintain balance.

The advantage of these active stabilization systems is their ability to respond faster than the human muscle twitch response. By utilizing precise sensors and fast-acting actuators, these systems can make adjustments within milliseconds or even microseconds.

For example, in robotics or humanoid robots, active stabilization systems can make incredibly fast adjustments to maintain balance, often surpassing human capabilities. Similarly, in advanced prosthetic devices, these systems can help amputees maintain stability and prevent falls by making quick adjustments in response to balance disturbances.

It's important to note that these technologies are highly specialized and often require advanced engineering and control systems. The specific response times and capabilities can vary depending on the design, implementation, and purpose of the system.

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

At some point, when you have ridden enough.. You simply stop having wobbles.

Certainly once your legs get stronger, rider-induced wobbles become much less frequent, but even the most XP'd up riders in the world can end up on their arses if the terrain, wind and luck works against them... not all wobbles are the result of weak legs ! And the generally accepted methods of reducing them vary so much per individual situation it's hard to say any of them are 100% foolproof...#

Here's massively experienced @Marty Backe for example, coming a right royal cropper when the random wobblies get him...

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Cerbera

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

Certainly once your legs get stronger, rider-induced wobbles become much less frequent, but even the most XP'd up riders in the world can end up on their arses if the terrain, wind and luck works against them... not all wobbles are the result of weak legs ! And the generally accepted methods of reducing them vary so much per individual situation it's hard to say any of them are 100% foolproof...#

Here's massively experienced @Marty Backe for example, coming a right royal cropper when the random wobblies get him...

 

 

Yeah I saw that video before.. His right foot "slipped" of the pedal. Otherwise he would have been fine.. (If he had spiked pedals - he would have not fallen.) I have had way worse wobbles at beginning. (Upper body of euc going left/right way more.. Literally LEFT TO RIGHT.. Almost at "cut-off" angle. But same time it was much slower motion. Maybe because i was going about 30km/h speeds?)

Also you can feel wobble coming. I be honest - have had "micro" wobbles sometimes. But in all times i have catch them in time and slowed down. Maybe 5 over 1000km ridden. You need to slow down about 5-8km/h and they go away.. Or quick turn left or right and they go away also. If you can feel them incoming.

Riding with "loose" legs help. Not hugging the wheel sides.. And i don't even have power pads, that would help in anyway.

 

At least that works for me.. Haven't fallen yet.  Oh and that "crazy" wobble i had in my first week.. To high PSI in tire +acceleration speed = crazy wobble at 30ish km/h. My heart was going crazy, till i stopped.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Wheelwoman said:

is it possible that the self-balancing function is continuously increasing each side to side aberration by magnifying erroneous (tired/ inexperienced) inputs

If you let a plain tubular tire roll downhill, if it gets fast enough, it will often start to wobble by itself from small surface disturbances. No self balancing mechanisms, no rider, not even a rim needed. So wobbling is a feature of a tubular tire shape itself, it’s the same feature we use to steer.

 Motorcycles too have wobbles, they call them tank slappers. The solution for them is a damper in the steering that slows down fast steering moves. Again, nothing related to acceleration/deceleration.

 Anything that disturbs the resonating side to side wobble can be used to kill the resonance. I don’t think a wobble at a steady speed introduces any toe-heel action, so I just don’t see how could an added acceleration-deceleration pulse affect anything else than make the rider be launched off the pedals prematurely.

 And again, what would be the point since we already have well working solutions?

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Here's massively experienced @Marty Backe for example

… after a really long day of off-roading at exhausting temperatures with a lot of body gear on. Like I said, it’s a tired leg and a beginner issue.

[Cerbera]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

… after a really long day of off-roading at exhausting temperatures with a lot of body gear on. Like I said, it’s a tired leg and a beginner issue.

My point was more that 'beginner issues' don't disappear altogether at any point - there are always times when we are fatigued, hot, uncomfortable or distracted / not as focused as we could be; to err is human, and even strong legs have weak moments... I just wouldn't want anyone labouring under the misapprehension that XP makes you somehow immune to these things.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Cerbera

[Punxatawneyjoe]

I think the even more important point is that people are being brainwashed into thinking that AI has the answer to all of our problems.

[Wheelwoman]

Wonderful all the input to this query fellows … but nobody in our global community thinks perhaps this AI wobble mitigation avenue could hold promise?? Who remembers that version of MSuper V3 firmware which was tossing riders .. including Marty I believe… and which was fairly quickly corrected by Gotway?? Was that a wobble related issue? ( Marty??) Thanks again all of you for your thoughts (:

[0000]

3 hours ago, Wheelwoman said:

but nobody in our global community thinks perhaps this AI wobble mitigation avenue could hold promise??

I think any sufficiently complex idea involving control systems to improve the handling of an EUC would probably try to develop and market that idea for profit either as a competing EUC or directly to one of the existing manufacturers rather than pitch the ideas openly to the public (j/k going to contradict myself in a few). That said, one of the main attractions of EUC is its functional simplicity where the rewards from riding come entirely from a rider's ability to maneuver their wheel at all speeds in all conditions. It's the difficulties and nuances of the ride that add to the experience - up to a point.

So with wobbles, sure you might be able to add additional gyroscopic sensor(s) or program the existing one(s) if they are already sufficiently capable to sense some combination of yaw and roll and then initiate some kind of override motor control to maybe "pulse" decelerate in an attempt to decrease the inputs to the sensors that are indicating some threshold of wobble is occurring. This feature, however, would require full integration with the existing EUC motor controller and as far as I know no one has yet "hacked" them to allow for custom tuning.

By the way, none of this requires LLM/AI technology. The standard test and tweak development process could be used to sort out if the above method could, 1, even be used to short-circuit the rapid onset of oscillations before they became uncontrollable (sort of like how ABS brakes work), and 2, not introduce unintended errors leading to other types of accidents by removing and automating motor control when wobbles are sensed as the rider would experience some loss of control. In a way, this feature would basically be a kind of "training-wheel" auto-slowdown potentially useful for those who haven't yet developed strategies through experience to deal with the wobbles, but isn't needed nor desirable for more seasoned riders.

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think a wobble at a steady speed introduces any toe-heel action, so I just don’t see how could an added acceleration-deceleration pulse affect anything else than make the rider be launched off the pedals prematurely.

I should've parsed your post above better before typing all that out! I have to agree, probably the best you could say about this kind of feature is it would have limited use for the inexperienced (if it even could be tuned to work somewhat reliably) and at worse even trip a rider up.

All of that said, one method I haven't personally seen yet in the EUC community (doesn't mean it isn't happening) is to try and balance the wheel with stick-on wheel weights.

I don't know if balancing a wheel this way will defeat wobbles in all scenarios (very likely not), but it certainly can't hurt. Especially for people who have replaced their often thinner stock tires, with properly heavy scooter/moto tires. It's a decent amount of mass likely rotating out of balance, particularly at speed when wobbles tend to occur, which may be a factor in either inducing/fueling or exacerbating these unwanted oscillations.

Something I found the other day. Definitely going to be giving this a shot soon.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Vanturion

[Robse]

i have the idea of a counter balancing system, 2 tubes; vertical on top of wheel in front and back, containing ,"heavy lead bullets" incapsulated in iron, free moving inside these tubes, and controllable by a magnetic field, that is able to (move) these weights fast from side to side in a way that should counteract the wobble. Of couse this requires some sophisticated controller and software, and it would add significant weight to the wheel. But in these days where a wheel easily weighs in at 40 - 50 Kg, who cares about additional 2 Kg .  Anyone to join my project? 😁

[Rawnei]

On today's episode of solving problems that didn't need solving with overly complex solutions.

[Funky]

EUC's need another wheel. That would fix all the issues they have. Like danger of wobbles.. Danger of faceplanting, when it shuts off.. I mean it would fix literally every problem! Who ever made first EUC's was a mad-man. All he had to do was add another wheel. And it would be the best invention ever made!

 

Not talking about bikes..  Spring loaded wheel that would sit front/behind the EUC body - extension like thingy.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, Wheelwoman said:

Who remembers that version of MSuper V3 firmware which was tossing riders .. including Marty I believe… and which was fairly quickly corrected by Gotway?? Was that a wobble related issue? ( Marty??)

Either you’ve been around for a long time or you’ve done an appreciable amount of reading! 
The issue you mentioned was a rodeo issue, back and forth. Not wobble related. It was so strong that it eventually tended to kick the rider off the wheel.

 One problem with the motor controller intervening with a wobble would be the same issue. It would have to introduce a strong back and forth movement, which could end up kicking the rider off as well. And I don’t think it would still help with the wobble.

 

7 hours ago, Vanturion said:

All of that said, one method I haven't personally seen yet in the EUC community (doesn't mean it isn't happening) is to try and balance the wheel with stick-on wheel weights.

You need to watch more of my videos!  

Although, I made that ancient video before I had familiarized myself with manual centering of the tire, which I now see as a much more important step:

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by mrelwood

[Robse]

44 minutes ago, Funky said:

EUC's need another wheel. That would fix all the issues they have. Like danger of wobbles.. Danger of faceplanting, when it shuts off.. I mean it would fix literally every problem! Who ever made first EUC's was a mad-man. All he had to do was add another wheel. And it would be the best invention ever made!

 

Not talking about bikes..  Spring loaded wheel that would sit front/behind the EUC body - extension like thingy.

just like one wheels with two extra tiny skater wheels in front, aka The Three a' Wheel . Cult. Pure Cult. 😂😁

[Cerbera]

55 minutes ago, Funky said:

Spring loaded wheel that would sit front/behind the EUC body - extension like thingy.

That's been done, but I can't find the video now. The second tiny wheel was a total liability, caught on everything, destabilised main wheel tracking, and the rider was upside down in a bush 30 seconds in. No stars.

[Funky]

45 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

That's been done, but I can't find the video now. The second tiny wheel was a total liability, caught on everything, destabilised main wheel tracking, and the rider was upside down in a bush 30 seconds in. No stars.

I bet the rider was beginners. Nothing more.

[Cerbera]

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

I bet the rider was beginners. Nothing more.

Well yes they were, but that really wasn't the problem - this was one of those bizarre random vehicles you can find for about a grand on AliXpress by no-name manufacturers 'having a go' at building something mad and selling it. It was hopeless unfit for purpose in every way ! Pretty sure it's been posted on this forum before, but damned if I can find it now...

Edited June 14, 2023 by Cerbera

[rcgldr]

21 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Certainly once your legs get stronger, rider-induced wobbles become much less frequent

I doubt Dawn Champion has very strong legs, yet she has ridden at 50+ mph on 2 or 3 EUCs.

20 hours ago, Funky said:

His right foot "slipped" of the pedal.

It didn't slip, he deliberately bailed.

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

If you let a plain tubular tire roll downhill, if it gets fast enough, it will often start to wobble by itself from small surface disturbances.

For a rolling tire, as speed increases, wobble goes away due to angular momentum and reduced contact patch area due to centrifugal reaction force reducing camber effect, but this is at a fairly high speed. With a load on the tire, like an EUC, the contact patch area won't change much.  Wobble on an EUC is a combination of twisting and tilting. Stopping the tilting will usually be enough to also stop the twisting (assuming contact patch is not overly flexing). In Duf (EUC Army)'s case, he's so bowlegged, that he can't touch the upper pads without a struggle, so he lowers tire pressure (reduces camber effect) and doesn't do drops which could damage the rim.

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 Motorcycles too have wobbles, they call them tank slappers. The solution for them is a damper in the steering that slows down fast steering moves.

My 2001 Suzuki Hayabusa doesn't have a steering damper and has a top speed of 186 mph | 300 kph (due to electronic speed limiter). ZX14R doesn't have one either. However, most of the lighter racer replica bikes and actual racing motorcycles do have steering dampers. 

Back to EUCs, Chooch running a race on a V12 with pedals at highest setting, getting wobbles, but riding through them. He gets blown off track due to crosswind gust while cornering at the limit. I don't know if EUCs are actually at the limit of traction or if the limiting factor is pedal clearance and there is also potential shut off due to tilt angle. On a motorcycle if not at the limit, a rider can steer less inwards to get the bike to lean more inwards to counter a crosswind. If riding in a straight line, a crosswind puts a side force on the bike, and trail causes the front tire to steer outwards, leaning the bike into the wind, with the sensation that the wind blows the tires outwards from under you leaning into a crosswind automatically, up to a point. If the crosswind is strong enough, a rider will have to apply additional outwards torque on the handlebars to get the bike to lean upwind enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdI_xCnDzHk&t=215s

Having some mass up high or at the front and back of an EUC would reduce or eliminate wobbles. This is part of the reason the V13 at 110+ lbs is so stable at high speeds (the knobby tire also helps, I don't know if there have been any issues using street tires on V13s).

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by rcgldr

[Robse]

5 hours ago, Cerbera said:

That's been done, but I can't find the video now. The second tiny wheel was a total liability, caught on everything, destabilised main wheel tracking, and the rider was upside down in a bush 30 seconds in. No stars.

It was two russians testing weird gadget's bought from the internet - i remember (good fun), and for sure, there was a youtube link in here (the video thread) But i cant find it?

[0000]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You need to watch more of my videos!  

Nice, seems like a better method than the video I linked too!

I can't really recall any threads where people are talking about balancing their rims, more about centering the tire, and like you said - most important part. Then again I've only been here since 2021 and never searched for that specifically. Given the lack of stick-on weights with new wheels, I would guess they generally are not getting balanced from the factory.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Vanturion

[Wheelwoman]

Yes (MRelwood) .. I “have been around for a long time “ … purchased my 1st wheel - an MSuper - about the same time Marty was turfed by said firmware issue .. sure do appreciate everyone’s input (:  .. wrt AI wobble mitigation, I wonder if even a momentary firmware shift to a softer mode upon detecting wobbles might prove effective??

[RayBanMonster]

Wobbles dont need a complex solution to solve, the key is a skewed weight distribution. Your feet should never mirror each other in weight distribution Left to right.

Foot placement is key and must be skewed if not able to switch weight distribution easily on command.

Right front ball of foot front and out slightly, other foot back and weight is mainly on the heel. Voila wobbles arrested by immediately deploying this distribution of weight and they disappear for good with this practice. No need for complex AI intervention.

Hope that helps.