Ultimate EUC that can change the world.

[techyiam]

25 minutes ago, Mono said:

Yet it seems safe to predict that the electric wheel will never be a game changer in a world where bicycles, e-bicycles and kickscooters are already commonplace,

I mostly agree with you on this point. 

Having said that, I also think there is a fair chance for wider acceptance if schools introduce electric wheels to their students, or if learning facilities for kids become available. 

There is no question the masses are afraid to learn to ride these things. I have been unsuccessful to convert anyone yet. No one around me have the slightest interest. You got to start them young, maybe.

Regarding non-electric wheels, around here, pedal bikes are king, hands down numbers wise. Since e-scooters have become legal, it looks like to me e-scooters have caught up to e-bikes, or about to. Electric wheels are not a common sighting, even on warm sunny days. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by techyiam

[Mono]

3 hours ago, winterwheel said:

the notion that cyclists limit themselves to 25kmh is laughable nonsense

I don't know what "limit themselves" means, but...

For the fun of it, the data of the first few articles that came up searching for "cycling speed average" in Google Scholar and that I had access to:

• Toronto (4000 trips by 500 people): cyclists average speed 19.6km/h with standard deviation +-7km/h: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2210670718304682
• Sydney (5000 riders on shared paths): "The study found that observed riders travelled at a median speed of 16 km/h (mean 18.4 km/h). Nearly 80% of riders travelled at 20 km/h or less and 7.8% at speeds of more than 30 km/h." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751730338X
• Chemnitz (Germany, 4000 trips of 84 people): "S-pedelecs travelled at ca. 24.5 km/h on average, pedelecs at 17.4 km/h, and conventional bicycles only at 15.3 km/h". The distance travelled above 25km/h was 12%, 20% and 60% for bicyclists, pedelecs and S-pedelecs, respectively https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2210670718304682

A small literature overview taken from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2210670718304682:

Quote

Data on the speed of conventional bicycles have been inconsistent. Two US studies found comparable mean speeds of 18 km/h (Dill and Gliebe, 2008) and 16 km/h (Thompson et al., 1997). Other investigations from Europe have reported mean speeds between 12 km/h and 14 km/h for conventional cyclists (Dozza and Werneke, 2014, Menghini et al., 2009). Up until now, only few studies have investigated the average speed of e-bikes. Results from China (Cherry and He, 2009, Lin et al., 2007) suggest that e-bikes are considerably faster than conventional bicycles. Mean speeds were found to be 7 km/h (Lin et al., 2007) and 5 km/h (Cherry and He, 2009) higher, respectively. For users of a US bike share programme higher travel speeds were found for e-bikes (13 km/h) in comparison to bicycles (11 km/h) on carriageways, whereas e-bike speed was lower on shared use facilities (Langford et al., 2015). For Europe, a Swiss study (Paefgen and Michahelles, 2010) reported an e-bike mean speed of about 19 km/h, however lacked comparable data for conventional bicycles. An observational study in Germany recorded a mean speed of nearly 17 km/h for e-bikes (Alrutz, 2012, Alrutz, 2013), which was two to three km/h higher than for conventional bicycles.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Mono

[techyiam]

24 minutes ago, Mono said:

• Toronto (4000 trips by 500 people): cyclists mean of speed 19.6km/h with standard 7km/h: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2210670718304682
• Sydney (5000 riders on shared paths): "The study found that observed riders travelled at a median speed of 16 km/h (mean 18.4 km/h). Nearly 80% of riders travelled at 20 km/h or less and 7.8% at speeds of more than 30 km/h." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751730338X
• Chemnitz (Germany, 4000 trips of 84 people): "S-pedelecs travelled at ca. 24.5 km/h on average, pedelecs at 17.4 km/h, and conventional bicycles only at 15.3 km/h". The distance travelled above 25km/h was 12%, 20% and 60% for bicyclists, pedelecs and S-pedelecs, respectively https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2210670718304682

The mean speed is the estimated arithmetic mean, aka, the average speed.

There is the average speed and there is average moving speed for an individual rider.

Then there is the average speed of all the riders' average speeds in the study to yield a single number for the group. 

This single speed number can be misleading, since within urban confines like Toronto, there can be a lot of traffic and intersections, etc., and we don't know whether the average moving speed is used.

19.6 km/h is fast if that is the plain average speed. If you take total distance traveled divided by the time it took, even for cars, the average speed can be quite low in busy urban traffic.

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

If all bicycles would be limited to 25km/h max though, the average speed would be lower.

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If all bicycles would be limited to 25km/h max though, the average speed would be lower.

+1.

Also, the battery capacity of your plain Jane e-bike or e-scooter is so limiting, the rider wouldn't want to travel faster than what would allow the rider to get home. What I see in the wild, except for a few exceptions, e-bikes and e-scooters don't really go much faster than pedal bikes. When I say pedal bikes,  I am talking about those bikes ridden by riders who are very fit because they ride every day. However, the speed demons are the electric wheel riders. And I am told by strangers how fast they saw these things go.

I would say most commuting cyclists are travelling above 25 km/h. However, the red lights are long. So the average speed can be quite low.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

The mean speed is the estimated arithmetic mean, aka, the average speed.

There is the average speed and there is average moving speed for an individual rider.

Then there is the average speed of all the riders' average speeds in the study to yield a single number for the group. 

This single speed number can be misleading, since within urban confines like Toronto, there can be a lot of traffic and intersections, etc., and we don't know whether the average moving speed is used.

19.6 km/h is fast if that is the plain average speed. If you take total distance traveled divided by the time it took, even for cars, the average speed can be quite low in busy urban traffic.

The distance travelled above 25km/h was 12%, 20% and 60% for bicyclists, pedelecs and S-pedelecs, respectively

[Mono]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If all bicycles would be limited to 25km/h max though, the average speed would be lower.

sure, however marginally, the "distance travelled above 25km/h was 12%, 20% and 60% for bicyclists, pedelecs and S-pedelecs, respectively" so if we travel 12%, 20%, 60% rather 25km/h instead of 30km/h we reduce the average speed by less than 0.6km/h, 1km/h and 3km/h, respectively, so for cyclists the change is way within the variation we see between different studies anyways.

I also don't know how this is even relevant, nobody claims cyclists limit themselves when the opportunity (downhill, tail wind) arises. The point which becomes pretty clear from these data is that 25km/h or above is not a typical speed at which casual cyclists travel on level ground, not even typical e-cyclists (S-pedelecs are a pretty rare species).

Edited June 10, 2023 by Mono

[Mono]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I would say most commuting cyclists are travelling above 25 km/h. However, the red lights are long. So the average speed can be quite low.

No need to speculate, the information is available, just read the papers. Or have an opinion out of ignorance, that's certainly up to you.

[techyiam]

@Mono

Quote

The study found that observed riders travelled at a median speed of 16 km/h (mean 18.4 km/h). Nearly 80% of riders travelled at 20 km/h or less and 7.8% at speeds of more than 30 km/h. Riders were significantly less likely to cycle above the median speed on shared paths that had an average volume of over 20 pedestrians/hour. Riders were significantly more likely to travel above the median speed on paths that had a centreline (OR: 1.71, 95% CI: 1.41–2.07), on wider paths (over 3.5 m) (OR: 1.34, 95% CI: 1.12–1.59) and on paths with visual segregation between cyclists and pedestrians.

....

Conclusions

The findings suggest that riders adjust their speeds to accommodate pedestrians and path conditions. Path characteristics that support separation from pedestrians may allow relatively higher speeds, and associated amenity, without substantial loss of safety.

For example, this study suggests cyclists adjust speeds for conditions. 

Cherry picking statistics, and especially when taken out of context proves nothing. You lead us on that the statistics is broadly applicable. 

Meanwhile, I shared my observations for the places I ride, and others have too.

Edited June 10, 2023 by techyiam

[Funky]

As former cyclist that traveled for 8 years. I can confirm, that i mostly was going 15-22km/h speeds. My top speed was 30km/h, when i needed to catch train in time.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Cherry picking statistics,

I didn't and I suspect you didn't too, as you didn't give any stats. 

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

and especially when taken out of context proves nothing. You lead us on that the statistics is broadly applicable. 

Meanwhile, I shared my observations for the places I ride, and others have too.

Sure, and I have too. And I have cycled ten thousands of km too. And I rode along with hundreds of cyclists for thousands of km on a speed limited EUC. Yet, your and my observations are personal guesstimates, which don't count for a lot when it comes to determine reality accurately. I am pretty sure you didn't even actually measure the speed of, say, a dozen of cyclists, like I did not too. Even if you had, you data would with all likelihood be more biased and less generalizable than any of those from a scientific publication.

It could be possible that where you live casual cyclists are different. What we know with more certainty is however that at many places they cycle below 25km/h much more often than above 25km/h.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Mono

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

It could be possible that where you live casual cyclists are different.

I’m sure it’s largely dependent on the exact place as well. City riders around here surely fit the statistics quite well, but the longer stretches of bicycle road next to a highway is a place where faster riders are more common than slow ones. That’s where I also usually get to my max riding speeds on an EUC if there’s no-one around.

2 hours ago, Mono said:

What we know with more certainty is however that at many places they cycle below 25km/h much more often than above 25km/h.

I’m sure that’s true.

[dongsoo]

Ok. I didnt get exactly why u guys r talking about cycle speed but

On plane road, road bicycle is surely faster than my v5f, but

Any place with hills, v5f is similar or better than cyclist.

If u r going for a steep top of mountain, cyclist is just no match for my v5f.  

V5f allowed me to go very top of mountain where my friend and I on mtb would go just half way and turn around because its just too hard, tedius long steep road.

The great thing about EUC is that I would use all of my v5f's battery to go up to the top, but while cruising down, it recharged to about 1/4?  on its regenerative braking.

EUC is the future, man. I have no doubt. Its just gonna take very long for current civillization to adopt it for the masses, because our world is still ruled by something not genuine.

Of course, potato couches or even 30 years old man who worked years locked to an office chair cant ride it, but any human being, who is healthy, can safely ride v5f with full gear of helmet, elbow,knee,plam, and hip protection.

Athletic person can ride this safely with a new class of light armor designed for euc.

Personally, I hope for light knee and hip padded sweat pants, so I can wear that to the gym, exercise, then come back without taking it off. 

Also,  I realized recently that thicker 3 inch? may NOT be needed. In off road with lots of rocks, thin tire helps because u can go between rocks easier.  Most road paint is thicker than 3 inch, so it doesnt help a lot except giving it a little bit larger road gripping area.

Ok. Back to the topic. I really need battery detacheable v5f.  

Two 160wh detacheable impact proof,waterproof battery pack v5f is the ultimate euc that can go any where.

I think I can really pay up  to $2500 for that euc, because its going to save a months worth of car rental fee in a foreign country. 

At place like South Korea where I wanna go, there r lots of  electric car charging stations, and distance between them in a city is really short.. like 2 3 5 miles.. its everywhere.  For long distance, of course u can just hop onto a public transportation.

Actually, I wanna go to China, and even to North Korea with this.

If somebody make me this EUC, I would go to North Korea with this and pursuade to him to forget about personal cars and make this a national personal transportation of North Korea. 

I AM NOT JOKING! THATS MY GOAL!

Edited June 23, 2023 by dongsoo

[GothamMike]

1. 360 degree self balancing.

2. Built in handles that can hold a U-lock or large speaker, camera mount.
 

3. built in Google/Apple Tag to prevent theft. 
 

4 . built in Hot-spot capability. 
 

5. multiple Bluetooth chip sets, data, voice, music. 
 

6. USB a & c charging. 

[destruver]

For me it'd be one that has almost the size of a motorcycle, not just for the bigger form factor but for range and speed aswell while still being one wheel and therefore compact (maybe not as maneuverable). Would straight up have a mid-drive ev motor which has a lot of HP for such a thing. This is partially inspired by the Honda Baiku, a concept EUC (prob weighs the same as a motorcycle.) Yes, it's designed very top-heavy, but the top is most likely just the screen and controller, the bottom obviously has the batteries. (Maybe even an extra built in spining medial gyro purely for extra stability?) And this all doesn't have to be for going super high speeds on such a thing, it's only plenty of leeway for super long range trips going maybe 40 - 60 even if it could potentially go 140 or so with such a motor. The only question is: Could some sort of balancing mechanism handle such weight at high speeds? Unless hub motors have very strong magnets for balancing. Yes it looks like it weighs 150 lbs or so more than the master pro (just a guess) but look at how much more compact the thing is than a motorcycle (when it comes to length, potentially even width). Imagine the range and speed of even a car in a size a bit smaller than a motorcycle, even most sportsbikes. And just as hard to steal with it's weigh; would have built-in, welded on steel holes and bars to it's innner-frame for locking up or towing small things. I'd even build a small custom battery cooling system. Most important part? You'll get all the attention

Edited June 25, 2023 by destruver

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, destruver said:

This is partially inspired by the Honda Baiku,

One strong guest of wind and it would be all over. A 900 lbs GoldWing is OK with all that fairing because it is 900 lbs.

Edited June 25, 2023 by techyiam

[destruver]

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

One strong guest of wind and it would be all over. A 900 lbs GoldWing is OK with all that fairing because it is 900 lbs.

That's why it's a concept, but I did mention that it could be designed with an internal physical gyro that spins extremely fast to keep stability. Most of it's internal weight would be lower to the ground (batteries, etc), and top is probably hollow, but hey! I'm not an EUC engineer or physicist, only a brainstormer  Honda is a hundred-billion dollar company, I'm sure their engies would figure out a way.

Edited June 25, 2023 by destruver

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, destruver said:

That's why it's a concept, but I did mention that it could be designed with an internal physical gyro that spins extremely fast to keep stability. Most of it's internal weight would be lower to the ground (batteries, etc), and top is probably hollow, but hey! I'm not an EUC engineer or physicist, only a brainstormer 

I think to go much beyond what we have now as electric wheels, we need another breakthrough, and not some simple evolution of what we have now.

Personally, I don't find the Baiku concept that practical. It becomes so much more bulky, unwieldy, and heavy to what benefit?  The rider is still not shielded from the weather elements. It lost me on the appeals of an electric wheel we have today.

Going forward, I would not use the concept of a motorcycle to guide me in conjuring up the concept for a single wheeled, motorized vehicle for the middling or far future.

Edited June 25, 2023 by techyiam

[destruver]

Oh, it didn't have to be that design exclusively, it was only an inspiration for a huge wheel that has the range and power of a car or motorcycle, while still being able to be smaller than both (would still definitely be way bigger than the MastPro, that's for sure.) Being a huge guy too at almost 140 kg and over 200cm also gave me the idea of a wheel that could realistically support me range-wise . I get about 54 km going about 67 on the V13. Lovely suspension though (no curbs or jumps for me, I don't wanna break it )

Would also love to pick up the MastPro soon. To be honest, that's probably a gimmicky advanced scooter Honda made for lower speeds. The first tease was in 2021, and there's a lot of images of it. not sure if they actually made a model or that's just very good CGI. Most likely the former.

Edited June 25, 2023 by destruver

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Personally, I don't find the Baiku concept that practical.

I'll say ! You couldn't take that in a shop could you ? You could barely fit one down a cycle path, and it is big and ugly enough to really put me off the whole concept. Is it really so hard to balance left and right ?! This is so far removed from what we currently think of as EUC I don't think it can be reasonably described as an evolution of it, but rather a completely different thing. And being the size and weight it is, it doesn't seem to serve the same function as current EUCs do either - take anywhere, no-need-to-park, on and off-road personal transport devices.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, destruver said:

Oh, it didn't have to be that design exclusively, it was only an inspiration for a huge wheel that has the range and power of a car or motorcycle, while still being able to be smaller than both (would still definitely be way bigger than the MastPro, that's for sure.) Being a huge guy too at almost 140 kg and over 200cm also gave me the idea of a wheel that could realistically support me range-wise . I get about 54 km going about 67 on the V13.

With your stature, you do have a natural advantage when it comes to riding big, heavy electric wheels. I see where you are coming frm. 

For the not too distance future, battery technology would have advanced, and good range may not necessarily mean crazy heavy battery packs. However, I can see more power would mostly likely come with more weight. The problem I see with significantly more power is your ability to stop and avoid accidents. It is going to take some very advanced skills and may be some kind of advanced technology.

In the meantime, the wheels that ride like a big wheel IMO are the Abrams, V13, Master Pro and the Monster Pro. I have only ridden the Abrams and V13. Although, the EX30 weighs about 110 lbs, it doesn't ride like one. I saw a Monster Pro in person once. Pictures or videos don't do the 24" tire justice. Compared to the 22" tire on my Abrams, it was huge.

2 hours ago, destruver said:

I get about 54 km going about 67 on the V13. Lovely suspension though (no curbs or jumps for me,

BTW, how are you liking your V13? Are you mostly riding on roads with car traffic? Apparently, the V13 can brake very well. I also like the V13's chassis dynamics. If Bob wasn't asked to stepped down, by the fall of this year, there was going to to be a V13 with more battery released. Also, Bob wanted Inmotion to be a performance leader and trendsetter. An up dated V13 would have mostly be released with a hydraulic suspension, more battery with swappable capability. Now everything is up in the air. What great shame.

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

If Bob wasn't asked to stepped down, by the fall of this year, there was going to to be a V13 with more battery released.

A recent rumor says that Bob is now the head of the product development team. That would sound like great news, and might mean that the published plans might actually still come to fruition. We’ll see.

I really wish we’d hear something from Inmotion.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A recent rumor says that Bob is now the head of the product development team. That would sound like great news, and might mean that the published plans might actually still come to fruition. We’ll see.

I really wish we’d hear something from Inmotion.

Hmm. That can be interesting if the right CEO is at the helm.

Agreed with you on that Inmotion should release an update on their product roadmap with the new CEO, and possibly who is the new CEO, and what Bob Yan's new role is?

Edited June 26, 2023 by techyiam

[dongsoola]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:32 PM, GothamMike said:

1. 360 degree self balancing.

2. Built in handles that can hold a U-lock or large speaker, camera mount.
 

3. built in Google/Apple Tag to prevent theft. 
 

4 . built in Hot-spot capability. 
 

5. multiple Bluetooth chip sets, data, voice, music. 
 

6. USB a & c charging. 

Ok. Maybe with gyro, 360 degree self balancing is possible but would u sacrifice more weight and size for that? Also u dont need gyro when u r going. The advantage is only when u r standing still.   U can already use U lock on v5f. U can take ur v5f almost anywhere so u dont need google tag. U can create hotspot with ur little phone. 
 

Um..