The Direction Inmotion new wheels will be taking.

[techyiam]

13 hours ago, Mono said:

The source gives 1885 as publishing year, so I'd think the patent has expired by now?

EDIT: it seems that patents typically expire after 15-20 years.

I don't think anybody is worrying about patent infringement.

The point is monowheel is already a term that has been used to refer to something else.

Just like we shouldn't be calling electric wheels bicycles. I don't think anybody is worry about patent infringement for a bicycle either.

Edited May 28, 2023 by techyiam

[Flygonial]

Sadly the snappiest, catchiest term we could call them is already patented and non-expired .

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

Just like we shouldn't be calling electric wheels bicycles. I don't think anybody is worry about patent infringement for a bicycle either.

However, I do feel like this isn't directly comparable. The original monowheels are much more obscure of a device than bicycles are and the chance for confusion is quite a bit smaller. Of course, the community has discussed at length viable alternatives to the EUC name and I think it's perfectly valid to be skeptical of Inmotion's goal there and be critical of it. I imagine they already know it's a bit of an uphill battle in how they acknowledge that they don't foresee themselves dropping the EUC name in marketing for at least a few more years.

At the very least I prefer it to gyrowheel. 

There's a lot of interesting stuff in the interview but of course, I'm most excited to see that the removable battery investigation is something that they didn't just mention in passing but are taking seriously. My only reservation is that the business model of dropping the base price of each model (and selling additional pack configs separately) may lead to an overall price hike for people wanting to buy the wheel with its fully-installed pack config, but greater accessibility will still be for the good of the hobby overall. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Flygonial

[Mono]

On 5/28/2023 at 12:24 PM, techyiam said:

I don't think anybody is worrying about patent infringement.

The point is monowheel is already a term that has been used to refer to something else.

Your original argument (the one I responded to) was

On 5/25/2023 at 11:20 AM, techyiam said:

Here is a strong argument against calling electric wheels as monowheels.

There is already a patent filed for monowheel. 

Now, if your argument is

On 5/28/2023 at 12:24 PM, techyiam said:

The point is monowheel is already a term that has been used to refer to something else.

my response is that virtually nobody knows about the original meaning or usage of the word monowheel, so this should not be of any serious concern. The meaning and usage of a word can change over time (and often does). That's just a generic feature of language.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Mono

[techyiam]

My reference to the patent was to point out the term monowheel is already in use, and is legitimately used to refer to another type of transportation device. This working device is well defined, and is nothing like an electric wheel. 

1 hour ago, Mono said:

my response is that virtually nobody knows about the original meaning or usage of the word monowheel, so this should not be of any serious concern. The meaning and usage of a word can change over time (and often does). That's just a generic feature of language.

Fair enough. It can be rather subjective. 

However, I happened to consider the monowheel to be a transportation device that I would like to perserved and not forgotten. It may even make a come back in another guise. It would cause unnecessary confusion to call electric wheels monowheels, IMO.

 

[mrelwood]

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

My reference to the patent was to point out the term monowheel is already in use, and is legitimately used to refer to another type of transportation device. This working device is well defined, and is nothing like an electric wheel. 

You mean like there are cars on a highway, and there are very different kinds of cars on a train track? 

[alcatraz]

Interesting. I'm sad to see that "portable" is low priority.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Interesting. I'm sad to see that "portable" is low priority.

What makes you say that?

[alcatraz]

It's in a more varied category. If you have many goals you can't really focus on one.

[mrelwood]

1 minute ago, alcatraz said:

It's in a more varied category. If you have many goals you can't really focus on one.

Ah. So, in the same way any of the categories is low priority. I guess you can think of it that way.

[alcatraz]

26 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Ah. So, in the same way any of the categories is low priority. I guess you can think of it that way.

Think of the three last categories all bunched into one.

Touring, high speed, terrain. And then you argue against anyone complaining that any of those is low priority.

[alcatraz]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Ah. So, in the same way any of the categories is low priority. I guess you can think of it that way.

Or, let's say you're a die hard offroad guy and you see your category bunched up with "entry level" and "last mile". That's my point.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

Think of the three last categories all bunched into one.

 

2 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Or, let's say you're a die hard offroad guy and you see your category bunched up with "entry level" and "last mile". That's my point.

I’m sorry but I’m not following. Where/how does this “bunching up” of categories come to play?

[alcatraz]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

 

I’m sorry but I’m not following. Where/how does this “bunching up” of categories come to play?

Yeah, sorry. I didn't explain the thinking I'm coming from. I'm fully aware that I'm in a minority that likes portability and performance. Call it advanced city riding.

With that in mind, have a look at the four categories again. You see "entry level/learning" and "last mile" next to what I consider an important property, "portability".

Small-ish 134v Samsung 50S 1300-1600Wh pack 16in HT motor short travel air suspension, lightweight, low-ish pedal height. In car equivalent, I see it as a "hot hatchback" Golf GTI, and the S22/Master can be the big wheel heavy high comfort highway cruiser Porshe Cayenne SUV.

[Funky]

Let's be real - their "learner/beginner" wheel weight will probably be sub 30kg.  "City cruiser" around 40kg. And new big boy on block will be around ~65kg. Because of all the pack it has swapped in it. (Ofc you can remove them to make any of the wheels lighter.) Ohh and i almost forgot about the "jumpy boy" it will be around 35kg.

 

Just saying Wink-Wink. 

[mrelwood]

38 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

With that in mind, have a look at the four categories again. You see "entry level/learning" and "last mile" next to what I consider an important property, "portability".

Did you watch Bob’s interview or the analysis video on it? The latest iteration of the categories were a bit different than they were in the first post of this thread.

I guess the improved V11 will replace V11 in it’s current category.

Y seems to refer to a 18/20” wheel, and P to a 16” one. Adventure and Challenger Y were said to introduce removable batteries, with the option to run them with either 1, 2, 3, or 4 packs.

While portability is a crucial feature for me as well, it’s a sliding scale. And even if a model doesn’t prioritize portability per se, it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be portable in your books.

 To me it looks like the categories are well defined and they make a lot of sense. I see no bunching up taking place. I think your worries might be misplaced.

 

38 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Small-ish 134v Samsung 50S 1300-1600Wh pack 16in HT motor short travel air suspension, lightweight, low-ish pedal height.

What do you consider to be the  realistic light weight of a HT wheel with a battery of that size?

 

20 minutes ago, Funky said:

Let's be real - their "learner/beginner" wheel weight will probably be sub 30kg.  "City cruiser" around 40kg. And new big boy on block will be around ~65kg.

Bollocks… you’re not being real. Look at the screenshot above and guess the weights again.

Edited May 30, 2023 by mrelwood

[alcatraz]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

What do you consider to be the  realistic light weight of a HT wheel with a battery of that size?

Less than a T4. I like the T4, but I believe there's some more room. If S18 can be 24-25kg then a T4 should be less than 29kg. The battery capacity doesn't account for it. S18 must have high quality materials or CNCing to make it lighter. 

If nothing else comes out I guess I'd be buying a T4 when I come across a good deal. I do hope there would be something else. I love the idea 9f the S18 comfort but I'd rather be back on 16in for city riding among cars.

[techyiam]

56 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

If nothing else comes out I guess I'd be buying a T4 when I come across a good deal. I do hope there would be something else.

EWheels has the T4 at 70 lbs. The S19 weighs at 70 lbs. The only suspension wheel coming that may weigh less is the to-be-updated V11. We don't know what its weight yet.

I think if you want suspension and light weight, it doesn't look like you can do better than the S18 in the foreseeable future.

[alcatraz]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I think if you want suspension and light weight, it doesn't look like you can do better than the S18 in the foreseeable future.

It looks really good. Only the cell choice and wheel diameter are a concern. Also, isn't air suspension king when it comes to road buzz? I don't do jumps.

Edited May 30, 2023 by alcatraz

[techyiam]

16 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

It looks really good. Only the cell choice and wheel diameter are a concern. Also, isn't air suspension king when it comes to road buzz? I don't do jumps.

I don't own an S18, so I wouldn't know. But if you can't make the S18 work for you, you just may have to deal with the heavier wheels.

[Funky]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Did you watch Bob’s interview or the analysis video on it?

No.. Because it's only talk. Don't really care.

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

What do you consider to be the  realistic light weight of a HT wheel with a battery of that size?

Easily 25-33kg.

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Bollocks… you’re not being real. Look at the screenshot above and guess the weights again.

Oh i thought they gonna make new wheels... Using old models and simply putting them each in "category" isn't anything special. "Yawn" 

Aside from "neighborhood" 30-65Kg i was right. (Hey they can make V13.v2 with more batteries... So 65kg easily.)

 

Lets be real.. 3/4 Will be over 30kg.. Simply because they try to put useless things into wheels and more batteries - making them all more heavy. Even V11 with "updated" looks and all new "shits" will be over 30kg.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Funky

[alcatraz]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I don't own an S18, so I wouldn't know. But if you can't make the S18 work for you, you just may have to deal with the heavier wheels.

No worries. I'm patient. Thanks for the input.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

No.. Because it's only talk. Don't really care.

I’d ask that isn’t that all you do here as well, but I already know that you’d answer that you don’t care whether  other people read your replies or what they think about them… 

 

3 hours ago, Funky said:

Lets be real.. 3/4 Will be over 30kg.. Simply because they try to put useless things into wheels and more batteries - making them all more heavy.

The point is that the rider is the one putting the batteries in, so they can choose how much weight they want to add.

[Funky]

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’d ask that isn’t that all you do here as well, but I already know that you’d answer that you don’t care whether  other people read your replies or what they think about them… 

 

(Off-Topic. So any reader can skip this part.) Aww you will make me BLUSH..  You know me so well. And we haven't even had our first date yet. 

Everyone has the right to choose what ever they want to do. (It's their life.) I simply will blow kisses to hatters. Not my problem if someone gets "mad" reading some dumb words on forum.  Like come on.. Are you for real? Fighting an invisible enemy. Almost the same as getting mad over video game. Makes me laugh when i find people like these.

Thinking what other people think about you and so on.. It's one of most idiotic world problems - You behave and grow up being a sheep at the end. Just trying to be likable and so on.. At the end you become another copy of copy. Wake up and look around.  

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The point is that the rider is the one putting the batteries in, so they can choose how much weight they want to add.

If the wheel is already 25kg heavy without batteries.. Same goes for "middle class" wheels (Master/S22 wheels like that.) I see them being easily 35kg with one battery pack. (~40kg with two packs.) Simply because each pack will be built more robust. Have steel casing or something. The connection.. Sliding mechanism, etc added. (It all adds weight.) Making whole wheel even more heavy than it should be. (As i mentioned - useless crap that isn't needed.) 

Sure swappable batteries idea is nice, but not needed.. At these prices i can easily see 1 pack costing 1000$. Maybe cheaper if they are built the same for all wheels. But still more expensive than simply heat shrinked battery pack. So yeah back to 1000$.

Maybe they will sell the wheel with one pack. And buyer can choose to add "extra" packs.. That would be best option. Doh every category will be more expensive than it should be. Simply by adding the swappable function on wheels. Easily 300-500$ upcharge. (Not even counting the "new" battery cost.) Even low end units will cost 1500-2000$ by that time. V8 at 2000$ no thanks. V11/12 at 3400$ no thanks. 

 

Simply a move to get more $$$. Company saves $$$ for manufacturing.. (As all wheels will have same battery and sliding thingy.) Same time customers will have to pay more $$$. Classic move.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Funky

[Drunkard]

I'm so confused with the battery swap idea.. These is no way a swappable battery could ever end up the same weight as an integrated one just because of extra construction required. Just look at the auto industry. Teslas and the rest. They started with battery modules but all are aiming to go to cell to pack for better weight. Other thing is ergonomics. The wheel will end up bulky because the margins for battery modules to go in and out. Modules themselves will be in some kind of protection in order to sell it and transport it safely.. 

If i remember Bob was saying there will be a possibility for people to buy different wheels and share the battery packs. That is a weird proposition that i can't see happening. Owning multiple wheels makes sense because you can just grab the one you feel like riding and go. Having to swap the battery from one to other just feels like an annoyance to me. Majority of people want's a finished product feel, not a constant tinkering.. Making sure battery always topped up so you can swap them.. If you have two wheels and you just came back form a ride and just want to grab the other one and go for some more. You can't really borrow more battery from the first wheel because it's fucking dead. 

 

The only example where it kind of makes sense is travel. You can leave your battery behind and rent battery from local EUC people. But picture this.. EUC with no battery is still 15-20kg minimum. You have to pay for additional flight baggage cost. You have to get that thing to airport in some kind of suitcase since it's no longer powering on. So in audition to your normal luggage you bringing extra heavy stuff, you have to pack it soft since you know how airport is treating your stuff.. you have to buy insurance because you don't know when your shit will go missing in the airport.. Basically i'm just saying it just sounds supper annoying. If someone is already establishing a business renting out battery packs. might as well just rent the full EUC for a bit more. People will take EUC once with them to holiday, realize how annoying it is and will never pull those batteries about ever again.. 

 

They should focus on safety, quality, cost and weight reductions. Not this shit. 

[Funky]

I'm still waiting for a "Jerry can" wheel. Perfect case, just pop everything wheel needs inside the can.  Also those flat sides - perfect. By default comes with amazing lifting handle + seat.  What more you need..? Pop big round M4ten light at front/back and you have amazing wheel. Heck the screw on cap can be the charging port - easy access from top and no water can get in.