Yet another split: Fire History

[woke rider]

Lithium batteries are safe if we follow proper precautions. This alarmist mentality is frustrating.

[GothamMike]

NYPost

...So far, 17 of this year’s 93 fire deaths are from such batteries....

[mhpr262]

Ever since I watched the Kingsong S20 New York fire I have been taking the fire issue a lot more seriously... my EUCs hang out in my garage now, exclusively, permanently. I dont bring them into my house anymore.

[winterwheel]

I'd really like to have some more hard data on how many of these fires are coming from "unregulated batteries" and what it is about those batteries that is causing fires. The story doesn't give me any actionable information beyond "lithium batteries are bad". It suggests that not all batteries are a problem by making an issue of regulated vs unregulated batteries but that isn't on its own useful.

[Panzer04]

The article has its agenda, that much is obvious. It's a little disheartening seeing things like this when 10x as many pedestrians are killed by cars each year :/

That being said, battery safety is definitely a concern, and unfortunately it's one of the easiest places for a manufacturer to cheap out on without a consumer noticing. I would bet most of these are not coming from EUCs (which are pretty expensive, and so can afford to use decent batteries - though it's a little shameful how long it's taking for full-series BMSs that track every cell bank to become common), but rather whatever the cheapest ebay ebike/hoverboard/scooter.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

Lithium battery's are the devil, just disregard the 333 murders,1,265 rapes,15,203 robbery's,24,361 felony assaults,11,934 burglary's,45,731 grand larceny's and the 4,532 "other sex crimes" in the big apple this year so far.

[0000]

^the thread now has all the makings for an insensitive Joker meme:

In all seriousness though, it's just one of the newest risks to life and property that comes with high-density living today. Besides the danger aspect, these risks also directly translate into rising CoL too as insurance rates have to rise to accommodate new risks.

There's always going to be a percentage of people not following best practices for purchasing, use, charging, and storage in addition to other issues like manufacturing defects, inadequate QA, mismatched or counterfeit cells, bms failure, etc. when it comes decentralized energy storage. Plan accordingly.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Vanturion

[GothamMike]

16 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

The article has its agenda, that much is obvious. It's a little disheartening seeing things like this when 10x as many pedestrians are killed by cars each year :/

That being said, battery safety is definitely a concern, and unfortunately it's one of the easiest places for a manufacturer to cheap out on without a consumer noticing. I would bet most of these are not coming from EUCs (which are pretty expensive, and so can afford to use decent batteries - though it's a little shameful how long it's taking for full-series BMSs that track every cell bank to become common), but rather whatever the cheapest ebay ebike/hoverboard/scooter.

Every Newspaper and TV Programme has an agenda.  It is easy to spot once you realize it.

Li-Ion batteries are the true culprit, along with shoddy manufacturing. No better solutions yet.

Insurers will be telling landlords to evict PEVs and their tenants, they might get away with it.

 

[GothamMike]

22 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I'd really like to have some more hard data on how many of these fires are coming from "unregulated batteries" and what it is about those batteries that is causing fires. The story doesn't give me any actionable information beyond "lithium batteries are bad". It suggests that not all batteries are a problem by making an issue of regulated vs unregulated batteries but that isn't on its own useful.

Apple had a battery problem, as did Samsung. Their problems were addressed. The airlines were starting to get on their case.

UL or an International Safety organization needs to support battery and manufacturing quality standards.

[eezo]

32 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

Insurers will be telling landlords to evict PEVs and their tenants, they might get away with it.

I bought my V5F on eBay from a guy in NYC who had PEV's banned from his building.

[winterwheel]

I have 14 wheels in my garage, the oldest of which are four years old. I'd really like something more concrete and detailed to work with in terms of assessing whether any of the wheels have a fire risk of spontaneously combusting. I got rid of my RS with original battery packs because of this potential.

[GothamMike]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

I have 14 wheels in my garage, the oldest of which are four years old. I'd really like something more concrete and detailed to work with in terms of assessing whether any of the wheels have a fire risk of spontaneously combusting. I got rid of my RS with original battery packs because of this potential.

I’d put welding blankets, or some sort of fire protection, between them.

[Panzer04]

14 hours ago, GothamMike said:

Every Newspaper and TV Programme has an agenda.  It is easy to spot once you realize it.

Li-Ion batteries are the true culprit, along with shoddy manufacturing. No better solutions yet.

Insurers will be telling landlords to evict PEVs and their tenants, they might get away with it.

 

In this particular case the very extreme measures being proposed seemed disproportionate (Defacto total ban on PEVS?). Reasonable articles opining on an issue do not make such broad generalisations. It's worse because by any measure if cars got the same consideration they would be much worse hit.

[GothamMike]

19 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

In this particular case the very extreme measures being proposed seemed disproportionate (Defacto total ban on PEVS?). Reasonable articles opining on an issue do not make such broad generalisations. It's worse because by any measure if cars got the same consideration they would be much worse hit.

FDNY firefighters don't like the smoke from batteries, it's pretty deadly.  I don't know the solution.  The current situation is not winnable.

[alcatraz]

I'm hoping that my wheels using only Sanyo Panasonic 18650 cells and yearly cell group measurements (check for balance) will ensure safety. I don't take any other precautions.

[alcatraz]

I remember back when 21700 cells started coming standard in wheels. It worried me because it was a step backward in current tolerance.

We went from 18650 cells that were rated at 10A to 21700 cells that were rated at 10A. A 21700 cell is about 50% larger which means that the amp budget got slashed by a third for the same capacity.

Afterwards of course the cells improved but there are a lot of cells out there. The infamous M50T got tested and couldn't even do 10A. I think they topped out at around 7-8A (continuous, max 80C). So they were the first to "go". There are other cells out there though, not much more powerful. When they age a few more years they will have the same tolerance of 7-8A without overheating. Are they going to go boom when that happens? That remains to be seen....

I believe though that any wheel running high capacity cells and has enough power to overheat them, is going to have some official warning issued on them. I'm talking about smaller packs running high capacity cells, and/or a high power motor.

High capacity cells are likely not going to age well in performance wheels. 2400Wh, 2200Wh, 1800Wh and the sort. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by alcatraz