Suspension types in detail (split from: Inmotion V14 16" suspension)

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

@techyiam All commonly used suspension in our wheels and elsewhere uses hydraulics, but it isn't called that. It's a misleading term, people have gone through it multiples times on here. That's what the "no" was for.

People used the term air suspension, when making reference to suspensions that use air springs instead of coil springs.

In the Electric Wheel World, suspension is relatively a new thing. There is no heritage baggage to create confusion. Once people learned that fork-style suspension on electric wheels are called hydraulic suspension that is what will get adopted. A major manufacturer has now chosen to use this term.

A hydraulic shock doesn't make the whole suspension. 

A fork-style hydraulic strut basically does, and has the same benefits of having all the parts in an oil bath sealed inside a unit as in hydraulic shocks.

Sounds logical and clear to me. So no confusion to me.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Sounds logical and clear to me.

Sounds utter madness to me.

So lets go against the time-aged and well understood descriptions of 'coil' and 'air' and instead, as a virtually no-name company in the field of suspension, decide to try and change those descriptions.

Both air and coil use hydraulics for the exact same purpose (strictly damping only) so simply describing a suspension system as 'hydraulic' is daft at best.

Again, no-one in the MTB world (which I would say uses the closest/same suspension tech as EUC) uses the term 'hydraulic' when describing either front or rear systems because it is meaningless, precisely because it could apply to either front or rear and yet both are totally different systems.

[InfiniteWheelie]

@Planemo Well said.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

so simply describing a suspension system as 'hydraulic' is daft at best.

Inmotion isn't using the term "hydraulic suspension" to describe a type of suspension. 

Inmotion has decided to call the type of suspension that they are using in their Challenger Series, "hydraulic suspension".

Similarly, Inmotion has decided to call the type of suspension that they are using in their Adventure Series, "linkage suspension".

Furthermore, Inmotion has decided to call electric wheels, monowheels. 

[mrelwood]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Similarly, Inmotion has decided to call the type of suspension that they are using in their Adventure Series, "linkage suspension".

They later added that it will have a coilover linkage suspension.

 The crucial difference with your other examples and “hydraulic suspension” is that the others describe a unique feature in the suspension system.

In the world of EUCs, a coilover shock can be only one type. Linkage suspension can only be one type. But all of them are hydraulic, so it’s not a unique feature.

 If the spring is not a coil, it must then be air. If the suspension mechanic doesn’t rely on linkages, it must have a  direct action. If a coil spring is not a coilover, it must have an internal coil. All very clear.

But if the suspension is not “hydraulic”, it is… what? “Pneumatic”? Or “dry”? None of these terms describe what kind of a suspension system it is, a unique feature in it, or how it operates. That makes it a lousy descriptive term for the suspension. Like calling my car suspension type as “vertical”.

24 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Inmotion isn't using the term "hydraulic suspension" to describe a type of suspension. 

Inmotion has decided to call the type of suspension that they are using in their Challenger Series, "hydraulic suspension".

…  Come again? Don’t the above paragraphs contradict each other completely and fully?

[Planemo]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

…  Come again? Don’t the above paragraphs contradict each other completely and fully?

No no no! You're not supposed to be confused, Inmotion has it all in hand remember 

[Rawnei]

14 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

But if the suspension is not “hydraulic”, it is… what? “Pneumatic”? Or “dry”? None of these terms describe what kind of a suspension system it is, a unique feature in it, or how it operates. That makes it a lousy descriptive term for the suspension. Like calling my car suspension type as “vertical”.

I like this concept, all my suspension wheels have vertical suspension, easy to understand.

[techyiam]

29 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

But if the suspension is not “hydraulic”, it is… what? “Pneumatic”? Or “dry”? None of these terms describe what kind of a suspension system it is, a unique feature in it, or how it operates. That makes it a lousy descriptive term for the suspension. Like calling my car suspension type as “vertical”.

Currently, in the Electric Wheel World, Inmotion has named the types of suspensions used in their lineup for the Adventure and Challenger Series:

(1) Hydraulic Suspension  -  Challenger Series. 

(2) Linkage Suspension  -   Adventure Series. 

So if it is not one, it has to be the other. 

What you really mean to ask is whether they use hydraulic shocks. And obviously they do.

And you want to equate a hydraulic suspension as a suspension that uses hydraulic shocks in the Electric Wheel World. I guess that is your prerogative. Inmotion chose not to.

People also use the term "air suspension". Do these suspension use a damper of which the working fluid is air? Of not. They also use hydraulic dampers, But yet they call this type of suspension air-suspension because it uses an air spring.

 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Inmotion has named

While I appreciate Bob’s work to a great extent, I don’t think what he said in a preliminary interview with a language he’s not very good at to necessarily determine the official terminology that Inmotion will use come time to advertise the new wheels. But we’ll see.

 Either way, he used the terminology that IIRC LeaperKim used to advertise their new type of suspension. Even if both of them call it that, it’s still not a sensible terminology to differentiate suspension from another.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

(1) Hydraulic Suspension  -  Challenger Series. 

(2) Linkage Suspension  -   Adventure Series. 

So if it is not one, it has to be the other.

Do you mean that “hydraulic” would cover all other suspension types except “linkage” ones? Yay, the V11 has hydraulic suspension! So does the V13. So nothing will change in the Challenger suspension…?

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

What you really mean to ask is whether they use hydraulic shocks. And obviously they do.

All shocks/dampers are hydraulic. But it goes further than that. Someone said that the ShermS suspension is called hydraulic because the whole system is bathing in oil.

 That doesn’t work either though. Air shocks are greased and oiled all around as well. Deflate V11 or V13 shocks when the wheel is vertical and you get a good amount of their oily compound on your hands.

Metallic objects that move against each other in a vehicle are commonly oiled. It doesn’t make sense to call all those systems hydraulic. If they would, then I bought hydraulic pliers a while back.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

And you want to equate a hydraulic suspension as

No. I don’t want to equate it with anything. It’s bad terminology, and doesn’t differentiate a suspension system from other systems. It’s LeaperKim’s marketing department’s attempt to make it sound fresh and innovative. I don’t think that’s enough to start calling a familiar system with a new name.

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

People also use the term "air suspension". Do these suspension use a damper of which the working fluid is air?

Nobody makes air dampers so it’s pretty easy to understand that the air must be then how the spring operates. Besides, since “coil” is used as the other system, it really becomes quite obvious what the “air” stands for in an air shock. It’s distinctive and descriptive, and doesn’t confuse anyone.

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Either way, he used the terminology that IIRC LeaperKim used to advertise their new type of suspension. Even if both of them call it that, it’s still not a sensible terminology to differentiate suspension from another.

In your opinion. That is because you equate hydraulic suspension to a suspension that uses hydraulic dampers in electric wheels.

I wouldn't call the current V13's suspension a hydraulic suspension because it uses hydraulic dampers.

I have no problem calling the Sherman-S's suspension a hydraulic suspension. This suspension basically has all the suspension components in an oil bath inside a sealed unit, and contains a hydraulic circuit for damping.

28 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Do you mean that “hydraulic” would cover all other suspension types except “linkage” ones? Yay, the V11 has hydraulic suspension! So does the V13. So nothing will change in the Challenger suspension…?

No. Bob is only calling the suspension used in the later Challenger wheels (not the current V13), a hydraulic suspension.

32 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Nobody makes air dampers so it’s pretty easy to understand that the air must be then how the spring operates. Besides, since “coil” is used as the other system, it really becomes quite obvious what the “air” stands for in an air shock. It’s distinctive and descriptive, and doesn’t confuse anyone.

That is how you only want to reason it. 

Like I said before, different people will use different reasons to define a term. It is rather subjective. 

Personally, I would prefer to use the terms:

(1) coil sprung suspension. 

(2) air sprung suspension. 

to differentiate the two types of springs used.

Having all the suspension components in an oil bath, inside a sealed unit is a big deal, IMO.

[mrelwood]

 

17 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Having all the suspension components in an oil bath

You missed a paragraph or two in the post you replied to. I’ll only reply to the parts that weren’t already covered there. But please read the rest as well, I’d like to hear your thoughts on them.

18 minutes ago, techyiam said:

No. Bob is only calling the suspension used in the later Challenger wheels (not the current V13), a hydraulic suspension.

Your comment that I replied to was: “If it’s not one, it has to be the other” (referring to Bob calling the Adventure suspension a linkage one, and future Challenger one a hydraulic one). I seem to have misunderstood your point. What did you mean by that?

21 minutes ago, techyiam said:

That is how you only want to reason it. 

So me thinking that calling an air sprung shock an air suspension is descriptive, is only how I want to reason it? Don’t you think that it’s descriptive and distinctive? Or do you feel that calling it an air suspension is a term out of thin air? (Pun definitely intended!) 

28 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Personally, I would prefer to use the terms:

(1) coil sprung suspension. 

(2) air sprung suspension. 

to differentiate the two types of springs used.

Absolutely, me too! So let’s ditch the third one, shall we?

[Unventor]

I guess people are waiting for next gen wheels to come out 

To me it matters less what label they put on as long as the suspension works and make my ride compfy and same my a.. When I didn't spot a bump or hole in time to avoid it. 

But I guess it is just my simple look on things.