My first High Speed crash ever and it was on the S22

[Robse]

wrong thread... 😐

Edited January 25, 2023 by Robse

[mrelwood]

On 1/25/2023 at 4:29 PM, Funky said:

16X - 90% = 44km/h (Doh most people know it's real max speed is~48km/h) Making it 43km/h as you said.. Same time if i had 16x, i would never go past 40km/h on it myself.

40/48 = 83%. But to have a comparable safety headroom the 16X should’ve been limited to 43km/h at the factory. Then your 40/43 = 93%.

 And as the battery goes down, your 90% soon becomes 100%, then 110%.

I just don’t think that your 90% rule is a very good one. At least as a generic one.

On 1/25/2023 at 4:29 PM, Funky said:

If i bought one of those "big" wheels. I would make that -15% of max riding speed..

My point was that there isn’t a fixed max riding speed on Begode and Veteran wheels. You can go as fast as you have the balls for. 100% means faceplant, and 90% is a crazy daredevil. That’s why their riders must have a different method of determining the speed they want to ride at.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:47 PM, Funky said:

I could imagine that most wheels can do max speed at 50% still?

Not at all. The maximum speed the motor can spin starts to come down as soon as you’re below 100% battery.

Most wheels with a speed limiter do keep the limit unchanged down to 30-50% battery, but the safety headroom does get lower all the time as well.

 Again making the PWM tilt-back the best, since it keeps the safety headroom always the same. Inmotion and KS do not.

 The V11 in Fancy mode is pretty generous with the max speeds down to 20% battery. 55km/h is easily enough for me as my personal limit seems to be at 48km/h, so I don’t need to limit my riding speed. But I limit my riding strength as the battery goes down.

 

[Funky]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

40/48 = 83%. But to have a comparable safety headroom the 16X should’ve been limited to 43km/h at the factory. Then your 40/43 = 93%.

 And as the battery goes down, your 90% soon becomes 100%, then 110%.

I just don’t think that your 90% rule is a very good one. At least as a generic one.

My point was that there isn’t a fixed max riding speed on Begode and Veteran wheels. You can go as fast as you have the balls for. 100% means faceplant, and 90% is a crazy daredevil. That’s why their riders must have a different method of determining the speed they want to ride at.

 

Not at all. The maximum speed the motor can spin starts to come down as soon as you’re below 100% battery.

Most wheels with a speed limiter do keep the limit unchanged down to 30-50% battery, but the safety headroom does get lower all the time as well.

 Again making the PWM tilt-back the best, since it keeps the safety headroom always the same. Inmotion and KS do not.

 The V11 in Fancy mode is pretty generous with the max speeds down to 20% battery. 55km/h is easily enough for me as my personal limit seems to be at 48km/h, so I don’t need to limit my riding speed. But I limit my riding strength as the battery goes down.

 

All i know is that EUCW doesn't scream at me. Doesn't matter what battery levels are, or what speeds i'm going..

EUCW "safety margin" take into account battery levels, right?

 

I understand as the battery goes lower - it loses the power. Sure you can keep going "max" speed.. But you will have higher chance of face planting at 50%, than 100%.

The thing is i have always 20%+ safety margin left.. It has never gotten lower than 13% - when i did my tests.. (I rode faster, more aggressive, not like i usually do. And i did that around 60% battery. Because i knew - lower battery - less safe.)

All i know is my 18xl doesn't limit my in anyway.. Only my own set speed alarms. Otherwise no other alarms. (That's why i said 90%.. As an example. Because riding at 90% speed is safer, than riding 100% - right? No matter which wheel - riding at lower speed are safer..) 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Funky

[Flygonial]

Sorry to necro this thread but I didn't want to make a whole new topic and thought many aspects of my experience are relevant to what @Rawnei experienced several months back in addition to just wanting to share.

My S22 crash was slower at 61.1 km/h and it goes to show just how important discipline is when accelerating at higher speeds. Logs showed a max of 91% PWM which I have exceeded before without cut-out but the most glaring red flag was a 58.16A current spike (at 6235W, about 70% battery with sag included at that time). I had 80% PWM alarms (which were going to be delayed through Bluetooth), obviously no tiltback at that speed as there's nothing dynamic in the firmware and I ended up powering through all the alarms too quickly to notice anything. I didn't even think I overpowered it at first because of how I fell but given that that stretch of road was exceptionally smooth and flat for Houston it's the most likely outcome.

Pressured to keep up with my friends, I accelerated after we crossed a light without realizing how fast I was already going. It felt like I'd slipped over something with the way the overpower felt because I was changing lanes right at that moment and I was sliding across the pavement before I'd even processed what had happened. Since it happened so fast, the details were definitely a bit hazy but I do know that my pads dragged my wheel with me for the first portion of the slide, my knees most likely took the impact (Leatts once again leaving my legs practically unscathed. The short contact time I had with my already slightly torn fabric shorts was enough to completely shred them apart on the left (though without a scratch on my thigh, I assume my wallet and phone basically acted as my pad . They did get completely torn free and I had to collect them from the road while apologizing to a small pile-up that happened, definitely a weakness of me just using exercise zipper shorts to hold my stuff. After this initial contact, I ended up tumbling forward and sliding on the back of my helmet and shoulder pads, though with the speed of the crash and what might have been a bit of pop from the initial hit, it felt semi-weightless with all the momentum that I had. I ground on that part for at least a full second before getting dropped off so my helmet could have saved my life at at very worst saved me from severe abrasion and a much more serious injury. It definitely didn't eat most of the impact (thankfully, as it's a TSG Pass I brought because I thought we'd be riding slower trails that day and we ended up on the street) and I feel very mild neck discomfort the day after at worst. My armored shirt (Leatt) was obviously torn up a bit at the pad holder but more interestingly came apart at the neck seam a bit, which moved the pad out of place and left me with two patches of road rash on my shoulders. I'm just thankful I had a pad there in the first place and am not complaining, I bought that bit of gear knowing it was a compromise on abrasion resistance vs. a jacket just because the summer heat here is so crazy. Wheel needs to be torn down but seems to still function, things like the swingarm guard @Rawneidesigned definitely took some impact (though there were still some scratches after the bumper got knocked off, it's obvious they did their job), everywhere else seems to have been impacted on a pad/seat/bumper except for the pedals which is expected of course.

This is the pad setup I had on the wheel at the time and nothing except the pedals which are there to take the punishment got more than a bit scratched. I've been experimenting with knob-style pads inspired by what the people at Powerknobz have been doing (not planning on releasing them because they're too derivative and don't want to step on their toes) and they have certainly let me access torque without leaning forward as much. With just a bend forward at the ankles and a more moderate bend at the hips (with knees heavily bent forward), you can get pretty much the same input as a moderate banana lean with front pads installed. When I've been test riding with these on my own, I've tended to go without a backpack and probably at more like 190 lbs instead of 200 lbs geared like I was when I crashed, so that probably made a difference to how hard I felt I could push. I did feel a little bit tired from some leg training that day too, and though I didn't crash from acutely losing control of the wheel I suppose that might have contributed to not having the best control over my own inputs. Of course, these weren't the culprit as any overlean is user error, but it goes to show that this pad style demands more discipline than a moderately aggressive pad setup. Definitely will be taking it slower from here, though I know that constant reminders would be necessary for me to stay disciplined with my acceleration as it's not impossible for me to slip back into complacency.

My rider friends on the other hand have just been telling me to get an EX30 .

[Rawnei]

12 minutes ago, Flygonial said:

Sorry to necro this thread but I didn't want to make a whole new topic and thought many aspects of my experience are relevant to what @Rawnei experienced several months back in addition to just wanting to share.

My S22 crash was slower at 61.1 km/h and it goes to show just how important discipline is when accelerating at higher speeds. Logs showed a max of 91% PWM which I have exceeded before without cut-out but the most glaring red flag was a 58.16A current spike (at 6235W, about 70% battery with sag included at that time). I had 80% PWM alarms (which were going to be delayed through Bluetooth), obviously no tiltback at that speed as there's nothing dynamic in the firmware and I ended up powering through all the alarms too quickly to notice anything. I didn't even think I overpowered it at first because of how I fell but given that that stretch of road was exceptionally smooth and flat for Houston it's the most likely outcome.

Pressured to keep up with my friends, I accelerated after we crossed a light without realizing how fast I was already going. It felt like I'd slipped over something with the way the overpower felt because I was changing lanes right at that moment and I was sliding across the pavement before I'd even processed what had happened. Since it happened so fast, the details were definitely a bit hazy but I do know that my pads dragged my wheel with me for the first portion of the slide, my knees most likely took the impact (Leatts once again leaving my legs practically unscathed. The short contact time I had with my already slightly torn fabric shorts was enough to completely shred them apart on the left (though without a scratch on my thigh, I assume my wallet and phone basically acted as my pad . They did get completely torn free and I had to collect them from the road while apologizing to a small pile-up that happened, definitely a weakness of me just using exercise zipper shorts to hold my stuff. After this initial contact, I ended up tumbling forward and sliding on the back of my helmet and shoulder pads, though with the speed of the crash and what might have been a bit of pop from the initial hit, it felt semi-weightless with all the momentum that I had. I ground on that part for at least a full second before getting dropped off so my helmet could have saved my life at at very worst saved me from severe abrasion and a much more serious injury. It definitely didn't eat most of the impact (thankfully, as it's a TSG Pass I brought because I thought we'd be riding slower trails that day and we ended up on the street) and I feel very mild neck discomfort the day after at worst. My armored shirt (Leatt) was obviously torn up a bit at the pad holder but more interestingly came apart at the neck seam a bit, which moved the pad out of place and left me with two patches of road rash on my shoulders. I'm just thankful I had a pad there in the first place and am not complaining, I bought that bit of gear knowing it was a compromise on abrasion resistance vs. a jacket just because the summer heat here is so crazy. Wheel needs to be torn down but seems to still function, things like the swingarm guard @Rawneidesigned definitely took some impact (though there were still some scratches after the bumper got knocked off, it's obvious they did their job), everywhere else seems to have been impacted on a pad/seat/bumper except for the pedals which is expected of course.

This is the pad setup I had on the wheel at the time and nothing except the pedals which are there to take the punishment got more than a bit scratched. I've been experimenting with knob-style pads inspired by what the people at Powerknobz have been doing (not planning on releasing them because they're too derivative and don't want to step on their toes) and they have certainly let me access torque without leaning forward as much. With just a bend forward at the ankles and a more moderate bend at the hips (with knees heavily bent forward), you can get pretty much the same input as a moderate banana lean with front pads installed. When I've been test riding with these on my own, I've tended to go without a backpack and probably at more like 190 lbs instead of 200 lbs geared like I was when I crashed, so that probably made a difference to how hard I felt I could push. I did feel a little bit tired from some leg training that day too, and though I didn't crash from acutely losing control of the wheel I suppose that might have contributed to not having the best control over my own inputs. Of course, these weren't the culprit as any overlean is user error, but it goes to show that this pad style demands more discipline than a moderately aggressive pad setup. Definitely will be taking it slower from here, though I know that constant reminders would be necessary for me to stay disciplined with my acceleration as it's not impossible for me to slip back into complacency.

My rider friends on the other hand have just been telling me to get an EX30 .

Glad you're ok, I'm convinced that S22 has a current limit that when reached will overrule pwm and cut the motor so we need to take it easy at high speeds due to that, I've set an EUC World alarm for 50A current to get some chance of catching that ahead of time and I'm definitely riding the S22 much more carefully at higher speeds nowadays to an almost paranoid degree.

Meanwhile I'm much less paranoid on my Patton where tilt back is actually working as intended and preventing me from overleaning ahead of time.

I wish King Song would improve this aspect and not be so passive and keep us in the dark.

[Flygonial]

17 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Glad you're ok, I'm convinced that S22 has a current limit that when reached will overrule pwm and cut the motor so we need to take it easy at high speeds due to that, I've set an EUC World alarm for 50A current to get some chance of catching that ahead of time and I'm definitely riding the S22 much more carefully at higher speeds nowadays to an almost paranoid degree.

Meanwhile I'm much less paranoid on my Patton where tilt back is actually working as intended and preventing me from overleaning ahead of time.

I wish King Song would improve this aspect and not be so passive and keep us in the dark.

The current is the most likely part, but evidently I exceeded those limits too quickly to get warned . I have my first stage alarms on DarknessBot at 45~ A, so I blew right past that crazy quickly which is the scary part. It still is my fault at the end of the day and these are band-aid fixes, but going back to using front pads and turning down all my alarms for safety thresholds are things I'm considering. It's the same philosophy as controlling weight by just getting rid of all the tempting shit in your cupboard . I know I've reached my cut-out speed without even exceeding 72% PWM, so oh well.

I do love that the Patton has PWM-based tiltback and it's something that I really feel should be standard on any mid-high speed wheel. More robust/consistent board designs, always ensuring a lot of headroom on batteries, and redundant hall sensors would be my other hope-to-see become industry standard, but it's probably too much to ask for at this stage. People wouldn't want to pay for Samsung 50S until the price goes down, people don't like compromising capacity for Molicel or 40T. Seems like 50S is mostly picking up in esk8 where the battery capacities can be lower thanks to rolling resistance and generally higher current demands, but at the end of the day I already knew the S22 wasn't perfect when buying it. Still have had loads of fun with it and just need to be ever more respectful of its limits as long as I still have it.

[Rawnei]

22 minutes ago, Flygonial said:

The current is the most likely part, but evidently I exceeded those limits too quickly to get warned . I have my first stage alarms on DarknessBot at 45~ A, so I blew right past that crazy quickly which is the scary part. It still is my fault at the end of the day and these are band-aid fixes, but going back to using front pads and turning down all my alarms for safety thresholds are things I'm considering. It's the same philosophy as controlling weight by just getting rid of all the tempting shit in your cupboard . I know I've reached my cut-out speed without even exceeding 72% PWM, so oh well.

I do love that the Patton has PWM-based tiltback and it's something that I really feel should be standard on any mid-high speed wheel. More robust/consistent board designs, always ensuring a lot of headroom on batteries, and redundant hall sensors would be my other hope-to-see become industry standard, but it's probably too much to ask for at this stage. People wouldn't want to pay for Samsung 50S until the price goes down, people don't like compromising capacity for Molicel or 40T. Seems like 50S is mostly picking up in esk8 where the battery capacities can be lower thanks to rolling resistance and generally higher current demands, but at the end of the day I already knew the S22 wasn't perfect when buying it. Still have had loads of fun with it and just need to be ever more respectful of its limits as long as I still have it.

It's still a great wheel, it's just the top speed and safety functions around top speed that is a bit lacking, other than that it's very enjoyable to ride.

[alcatraz]

To the OP I just say, you've got balls! Pushing 6-7000w at 70km/h.

[Rawnei]

6 hours ago, alcatraz said:

To the OP I just say, you've got balls! Pushing 6-7000w at 70km/h.

Doesn't really work like that, it's not like we're riding and holding a phone and analyzing what is going on, riding at 66kmh is nothing spectacular really, we do it all the time, as long as you respect alarms (of which I heard none this time).

On most wheels you will get alerted in time by PWM/Safety Margin alert, this time there wasn't enough margin so I changed my alerts after to get more margin, also I believe there could be a current limit in the S22 firmware that will also cut the motor regardless of safety margin so I have a current alarm nowadays as well, but overall I ride the S22 slower than my other wheels because it doesn't feel as safe at higher speeds due to all the unknowns in the firmware and the poorly implemented tiltback, in contrast on my Patton I have both PWM tiltback working as intended and 80% PWM alert which is harder to exceed due to tiltback engaging prior so I can surf it at high speed without any worry.

[alcatraz]

Ok, I see. I really think you could upgrade your wheel.

My problem is I don't trust the manufacturer to design a wheel that can go near max speed, year after year. I'm afraid that when stuff degrades unpredictable stuff can happen. If my goal was to ride at 70 maybe I'd get a Master or V13 or something like that.

I'm 40 and I don't want to keep upping the speeds with reduced bone density and what not that's coming. Haha. Am I too cautious?

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

Ok, I see. I really think you could upgrade your wheel.

My problem is I don't trust the manufacturer to design a wheel that can go near max speed, year after year. I'm afraid that when stuff degrades unpredictable stuff can happen. If my goal was to ride at 70 maybe I'd get a Master or V13 or something like that.

I'm 40 and I don't want to keep upping the speeds with reduced bone density and what not that's coming. Haha. Am I too cautious?

Master is the most unreliable wheel in the history of wheels.

As you can see I have a Patton and Sherman S also, I'm happy with all my current wheels, S22 included.

I'm older than you, properly geared it's not problem, as you can read from my original post I took no damage whatsoever, falling on tricky terrain in the forest can be worse if you are unlucky.