S22 owners.. buy, wait, skip?

[No1up]

Looking at the commander or the s22.. rev rides assured me the main problems have been addressed on the s22 barring any unforeseen issues. What say actual owners?

[Tawpie]

Whelp, I'm a new owner so take this with a grain of salt.

Having followed all of the trials and tribulations, I went ahead and purchased batch1 partly because the deal I got allows me extra money for "improvements". My reseller has promised me a replacement motor when they arrive from CN.

Upon receipt, I tore the wheel down, cleaned the grease out of the slider channels, shimmed out the shoulder bolts, added 3rd party dust protectors and changed the spring to one more suited to my weight. See @Marty Backe's latest video for details (he did almost exactly what I did).

So far I'm very happy. I've only put 50ish miles on it so far though (none of it in dust or off-road), so the honeymoon period is far from over… there is plenty of time for cursing the dang thing. It is batch 1, more warts will surface I'm certain.

Yes, even with my 'mods' the suspension is firm. Sports car like, not Citrëon. I'm currently running a high tire pressure (for me) and will be experimenting with slightly lower pressures—handling is my main concern and I wanted to spend time getting used to the weight of the wheel before getting too experimental. Word on the street is the roller sliders are very cushy, and other rumors have KS shipping v2 with their solution in the near future (the KS solution is purportedly based on the community developed rollers).

The resale value of all wheels has dropped as a consequence of the retail price drops and new announcements, but if I do need to sell the oompaloompa I'm banking on more interest in S22 than Commander. Should that sort of thing matter to you!

Edited November 14, 2022 by Tawpie

[No1up]

19 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Whelp, I'm a new owner so take this with a grain of salt.

Having followed all of the trials and tribulations, I went ahead and purchased batch1 partly because the deal I got allows me extra money for "improvements". My reseller has promised me a replacement motor when they arrive from CN.

Upon receipt, I tore the wheel down, cleaned the grease out of the slider channels, shimmed out the shoulder bolts, added 3rd party dust protectors and changed the spring to one more suited to my weight. See @Marty Backe's latest video for details (he did almost exactly what I did).

So far I'm very happy. I've only put 50ish miles on it so far though (none of it in dust or off-road), so the honeymoon period is far from over… there is plenty of time for cursing the dang thing. It is batch 1, more warts will surface I'm certain.

Yes, even with my 'mods' the suspension is firm. Sports car like, not Citrëon. I'm currently running a high tire pressure (for me) and will be experimenting with slightly lower pressures—handling is my main concern and I wanted to spend time getting used to the weight of the wheel before getting too experimental. Word on the street is the roller sliders are very cushy, and other rumors have KS shipping v2 with their solution in the near future (the KS solution is purportedly based on the community developed rollers).

The resale value of all wheels has dropped as a consequence of the retail price drops and new announcements, but if I do need to sell the oompaloompa I'm banking on more interest in S22 than Commander. Should that sort of thing matter to you!

Re-sell is always important! I like the hard tail ride with the suspension kicking in when you need it... How's the range when riding at 35mph?

[No1up]

22 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Whelp, I'm a new owner so take this with a grain of salt.

Having followed all of the trials and tribulations, I went ahead and purchased batch1 partly because the deal I got allows me extra money for "improvements". My reseller has promised me a replacement motor when they arrive from CN.

Upon receipt, I tore the wheel down, cleaned the grease out of the slider channels, shimmed out the shoulder bolts, added 3rd party dust protectors and changed the spring to one more suited to my weight. See @Marty Backe's latest video for details (he did almost exactly what I did).

So far I'm very happy. I've only put 50ish miles on it so far though (none of it in dust or off-road), so the honeymoon period is far from over… there is plenty of time for cursing the dang thing. It is batch 1, more warts will surface I'm certain.

Yes, even with my 'mods' the suspension is firm. Sports car like, not Citrëon. I'm currently running a high tire pressure (for me) and will be experimenting with slightly lower pressures—handling is my main concern and I wanted to spend time getting used to the weight of the wheel before getting too experimental. Word on the street is the roller sliders are very cushy, and other rumors have KS shipping v2 with their solution in the near future (the KS solution is purportedly based on the community developed rollers).

The resale value of all wheels has dropped as a consequence of the retail price drops and new announcements, but if I do need to sell the oompaloompa I'm banking on more interest in S22 than Commander. Should that sort of thing matter to you!

 

 

Also, rev rides says it can display in MPH now.. anyway to confirm that? 

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, No1up said:

Re-sell is always important! I like the hard tail ride with the suspension kicking in when you need it... How's the range when riding at 35mph?

Range at 35 is going to be short. I'm not a good benchmark for range or torque or acceleration because I am a strawweight—but if you want to go 35 for any length of time you want Commander. No question. You'll have to live without suspension.

[Tawpie]

8 minutes ago, No1up said:

 

 

Also, rev rides says it can display in MPH now.. anyway to confirm that? 

I'll check when the day job releases me, I'm on v2.22 mainboard firmware (the commoner's version, available in the KS wheel app) but I understand there's v2.23 for the brave and v2.24 for brave owners with 40T batteries (using the somewhat risky-because-it-includes-unlimited-ability-to-bork-your-wheel SoftTuner). Nobody has talked about 'real' differences though, I would have expected mph to have made the grade as a significant change.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

I sure couldn't find any way to change to mph, not in the KS app, not in that other risky app either. I'm not sure what RevRides was quoting but perhaps they'd tell you how one can change to mph?

[No1up]

10 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I sure couldn't find any way to change to mph, not in the KS app, not in that other risky app either. I'm not sure what RevRides was quoting but perhaps they'd tell you how one can change to mph?

I wouldn't count on it.. they guy I spoke to didn't even know what the commander was.. 

[Fuerte]

I just picked up a very discounted Abrams from EEVEE's and it is awesome with a new motor  and updated firmware. I would take a look at EEVEE's and their sales right now.

[chanman]

Re: S22, Newer motors with the fix should make the wheel reliable compared to all of the failures that were happening before. Suspension design still needs improvements, but there's aftermarket solutions for that, it still works really well on big drops or bumps but doesn't smooth out the roads so much once it's sticking a bit. Stock pads didn't work for me but I didn't mind throwing on my own. With all that in mind the performance and build quality met my expectations.

Edited November 15, 2022 by chanman

[No1up]

2 hours ago, Fuerte said:

I just picked up a very discounted Abrams from EEVEE's and it is awesome with a new motor  and updated firmware. I would take a look at EEVEE's and their sales right now.

Man that Abrams has never interested me.. that tire is too large to have fun with. But it looks sharp! 

[MetricUSA]

I would just forget the ks22, it doesn't not have proper design suspension... I am totally regretting the purchase!!! 

[Rawnei]

I'm very happy with mine, the stock suspension is serviceable and upgradable and the rest of the wheel is very good, overall a nice package, I prefer it over my heavily modified master.

[oekmekci]

I switched to S22(not the ewheels samsung 40T battery default LG M50LT one) from an S18 which i upgraded with the same dnm coil shock(550lbs) and it's ride was really really smooth especially if you find the sweet spot of the rebound intensity. But after migrating to S22 S18 felt like a toy compared to the S22 in terms of torque and stability. People complained about the torque but after a firmware they upgraded the torque significantly and i got my wheel after that firmware i didn't see any significant lack of torque in the wheel. I usually ride at 45-55kmh avarage speed and it delivers quite nice torque and acceleration if you are not into becoming speed demon in the streets or competitive riding. As a 89kg person even on the some slopes i can ride at 40kmh without any beep despite of my weight and desire of acceleration. Some love the tire and some hate it but i like it. It provides significant stability on higher speeds and minimizing risk of wobble compared to street tire and didn't encounter any problems on turns due to the edge of the tire because you don't lean that much in turns on 40km+ speeds. I didn't go past 59kmh(36mph) yet because i previously had a cutout at 45-50kmh speed with s18 and i don't want to encounter with a cutout without better gear. The only downside in terms of performance seems like it kind of asks you to lean much more after 50km+ speeds but perpaps i subconsciously prevent myself from leaning beyond a threshold due to the previous cutout experience. I also noticed most people lean quite much after 50km+ speeds with other wheels perhaps its due to the increased wind forces being at play.

I was between the master and s22 but suspension linkage of master was a stillborn and i didn't want to fine tune it after waiting for the third party solutions. What Kingsong got right is the suspension design(excluding the sliders) because you are not a suspension company and you should do one thing and do it well just like unix philosophy. Design the wheel to be suitable with standardized suspension mechanisms and use standard suspensions, this results in not depending on manufacturer for suspension repairs, maintenance and allows you to upgrade to high level suspension like rockshox etc.

I am waiting for 6 wheel cnc roller sliders or Kingsong's solution but using a a little silicone based lubricant after every 50-60km in the meantime makes the ride quite close to my s18 with the coil shock and i really can't wait to experience the roller sliders with s22 especially with that enormous travel distance.

The downsides are minor like the design of the trolley handle, kill switch, screen positioning. A significant downside could be the lights because they are really good for traffic and visibility but way too powerful for bike lanes and pedestrians. Overall I used the for almost 550km in 2 months and there aren't any significant downsides i can criticize. If the price is good enough and the motor is pinned i can say you would not be disappointed

[techyiam]

52 minutes ago, oekmekci said:

I also noticed most people lean quite much after 50km+ speeds with other wheels perhaps its due to the increased wind forces being at play.

It should be due to gyro effects. In any case, you should play with it in small increments within your comfort zone.

[NSFW]

My first motherboard burned out after about a month, and the replacement appears identical, with the same version number and date printed on the bottom of the board. I wouldn't recommend buying an S22 until KS acknowledges and problem and begins shipping units with upgraded boards.

The sliders worked fine at first, and then got sticky over time. Roller upgrades make it buttery smooth, but installation is not much fun. I'd wait for KS to improve on this as well.

The stator slip issue seems to be fixed in newer models, which is nice. I'm talking with my dealer now about the logistics of the replacement.

Lots of people are reporting that the BMS doesn't balance the cells because the charger doesn't charge them to the threshold at which balancing should begin. I have not seen any word from KS about this.

Months ago there was a report of defective motors and circuit boards, sent by KS to their dealer network in China. The motor part was obviously accurate. The circuit board part seems accurate to me as well. The fact that KS took forever to acknowledge the motor problem to customers outside of China is pretty aggravating. And they still haven't acknowledged the circuit board problem, other than that letter to their Chinese dealers. It's atrocious.

I will not be doing business with KS again until they set things right with S22 customers and demonstrate an ability to ship a new product that isn't a dumpster fire.

[chanman]

I don't think there's strong evidence that the board failures are significantly more problematic than any other model. There were a lot of failed boards early on because of the motor issues, which I think can be mostly exluded, and then we see some repeated failures with people doing extreme stunts all of the time like Shibby. Other than that I don't think the failure rate is too extraordinary, most models have seen a  5%-10% failure rate, but some stats from a large distributor on warranty claims and such would be more relevant.

Edited November 23, 2022 by chanman

[NSFW]

There's been plenty of failed boards without motor issues too. While it's true that motors were taking out boards, it's also true the people have been reporting blown boards without motor trouble this whole time. I mean, if you replace the board and the S22 still rides just fine, the motor wasn't the problem.

There's a video of Shibby blowing a circuit board while riding backward. That's not an extreme stunt. 

Shibby was getting new boards as soon as he blew the old ones. Most of us had to wait for replacements... more than two months in my case. Who knows how many I could have blown if I had actually been able to ride the damn thing in August or September.

[chanman]

13 hours ago, NSFW said:

Shibby blowing a circuit board while riding backward

If you're talking about this https://www.facebook.com/reel/604208967960616/?s=single_unit I'm pretty sure the important part was the 12ft vertical ramp, not exactly the leisurely stroll you're painting, and god knows what he did to it before this.
 

Edited November 26, 2022 by chanman

[NSFW]

You say that as if the wall was some kind of challenge for the power system.... but I've ridden similar sized half-pipes and quarter-pipes on skateboards that didn't even have motors. That doesn't require any power at all. On an EUC it requires some power to stay balanced, but not much. There's no reason for that to kill the main board.

Mine died after the tire left the ground, spun up, and came to a sudden stop when it hit the ground. I can see how that could actually involve some power - but if the main board isn't strong enough to survive that scenario, the main board just isn't strong enough. That kind of scenario is perfectly normal when jumping, you hear it all the time. It happens all the time after a fall, too. It shouldn't be a death sentence for the MOSFETs.

I got lucky and only had to haul it a short distance to get a taxi. Another guy had his burn out when he was in the middle of a forest. 

[chanman]

47 minutes ago, NSFW said:

That doesn't require any power at all

Have you tried a near vertical climb on an EUC? You don't get to rely on the smooth transfer of energy you get on a multi wheeled device, I assure you that was very strenuous on the motor and controller to not let him to fall backwards on the way up or forwards on the way down until failure.

48 minutes ago, NSFW said:

Mine died after the tire left the ground, spun up, and came to a sudden stop when it hit the ground.

This is the now textbook way to induce failure on problematic motors. Was yours a pinned one?

[NSFW]

Have you? Motor torque is negligible unless you're accelerating or braking. Ramps don't change that fact.  

My motor is not pinned, but it also still works just fine and doesn't make any noises, so I don't believe the stator slipped. I have put about 25 miles on it since replacing the motherboard. Down off many curbs, up onto a few, plus some jumps and stairs. 

 

 

[chanman]

You really don't think going up vertically and keeping your speed and orientation isn't making the motor work hard? If he was tilted back 90 degrees perpendicular to the ramp like you would on a skateboard I might agree with you but the wheel is definitely still flat until failure in case you didn't notice.

Edited November 28, 2022 by chanman

[NSFW]

No, I really don't. The EUC's angle in that scenario tells you more about the EUC software developer's choices than anything else. They could have used the accelerometers as the primary reference, in which case the rider would follow the curve of the ramp like a skateboarder, but instead they chose to rely primarily on the gyros, like an artificial horizon. It probably makes sense for most users, but if we had open-source firmware it's something I'd love to play with.

[chanman]

Ok but my point is the motor has to apply a lot of force to actually get him up the vertical and not let him fall on the way back down, same when you do a ramp to a jump and on landing. It's not like a bike where you can just rely on the stability of multiple wheels and conservation of energy to do the work.

Edited November 29, 2022 by chanman