At Alienrides, the top selling euc's are mostly Begode's, and weighs 64 lbs. or heavier

[techyiam]

At Alienrides, the 5th best selling euc is the V12, and the 6th is S22. Otherwise, the reminder of the top 11 best selling euc's are branded Begode.

Other than the mten4 weighing in at 28 lbs., and the RS at 60 lbs, the 13 top selling euc's at Alienrides weigh 64 lbs. or heavier. 

The Begode has recently caught up and surpassed the V13 in preorders at Alienrides. The Master Pro now rank as the 11th best seller, just one ahead of the V13.

In the USA, Veteran euc's are exclusive to eWheels. Hence, no Veteran euc's at Alienrides.

 

[EMA]

i'm not surprised 

[Funky]

You don't say..... Big surprise. Hmm maybe because there isn't anything "lighter/cheaper" for the same performance?  

If said RS would have weighted 50 lbs it would have sold even better.. If V13 weight were "40lbs" it would sell like CUPCAKES!!! Even if it costed 4600$  

You need perfect synergy. Speed/Power/Weight/Range. 

Lets take V13 for example. It has speed/power/range, but weight is way to high. You can get the same speed/power/range at lighter wheel from begode - so it sells better. WoW what a surprise..... And also cheaper.

You need everything balanced.  Same if you had very light wheel, but no much off a speed/power/range - most people will simply ignore it. (Doh some still would like it, like me.)

 

Perfect wheel would be: 50mph top speed. Weight ~50lbs. Range 50 miles. See it has everything "50" - perfect synergy. You can't even ride a car that fast in city/residential streets. And price 2500$ or less.

I hate the market and how everything: More SPEED! MOREEE Powarrr..!! Yet built quality goes down. And ease of storage/transporting around goes down the drain.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Funky

[EMA]

@Funkyi like your dream world

[Funky]

Their store only has Begode wheels LOL!!!!!! What the heck do you want?  (If you don't count the poor lil V8 or V12, S22)  Mostly only Begode.

At least that's what i see on their website.  

Edited October 13, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

18 minutes ago, Funky said:

More SPEED! MOREEE Powarrr..!! Yet built quality goes down.

The market chose the Master over the Hero, and Begode will respond accordingly for future products. Basically, it just reaffirms their original formula. 

Even so, Begode is gradually addressing water resistance.

[EMA]

@Funkyi was talking about your weight toughts, which i found so funny 

i'm not surprise about the Alienrides numbers becouse i don't see anything that can compete with Begode wheels in some segments, except what already mentioned in the first post:

s22, Sherman, v12, v13

personally i was thinking the v11 would be a big seller, to me one of the best commuter medium wheel you can get

i'm surprised about the v12 which i consider a useless overstimated wheel with cutout issues 

jm2c

Edited October 13, 2022 by EMA

[Funky]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The market chose the Master over the Hero, and Begode will respond accordingly for future products. Basically, it just reaffirms their original formula. 

Even so, Begode is gradually addressing water resistance.

Again big surprise Master in every aspect is simply "better" wheel.. Hero should have never exited in first place.

7 minutes ago, EMA said:

@Funkyi was talking about your weight toughts, which i found so funny 
 

And why is it so funny? Would you not like to have wheel which has everything "50" ?  If you meant the V13 example it was just number game.. Same spec but at 40lbs it would sell a lot. The manufacturers could even add 1000$ premium for very light, but very powerful wheel.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Funky

[jimjam.nyc]

 I have to agree with @Funky. Especially on the build quality decreasing on these more powerful wheels. 

I am not shocked, but kind of scratching my head on why people would pay so much for these begode wheels, only to have to replace suspension geometries and buy full 3d printed systems to lift, store, and protect the thing from disintegrating when riding it. 

I wanted to like the v13 and s22 so bad, but i cant really justify the huge wheels and price. At the end of the day the older reliable wheels just make way more sense. 

I am constantly looking for my next wheel.. I keep going back to looking at the Sherman. I have a v12 and while i thought about selling it, it is almost perfect minus having suspension. Which i am starting to think is just not worth it to have suspension. 

[Funky]

2 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

 I have to agree with @Funky. Especially on the build quality decreasing on these more powerful wheels. 

I am not shocked, but kind of scratching my head on why people would pay so much for these begode wheels, only to have to replace suspension geometries and buy full 3d printed systems to lift, store, and protect the thing from disintegrating when riding it. 

I wanted to like the v13 and s22 so bad, but i cant really justify the huge wheels and price. At the end of the day the older reliable wheels just make way more sense. 

I am constantly looking for my next wheel.. I keep going back to looking at the Sherman. I have a v12 and while i thought about selling it, it is almost perfect minus having suspension. Which i am starting to think is just not worth it to have suspension. 

Yeah Sherman Max is one of best wheels you could get.. If i need speed/power/range i would have bought it myself. Doh i like "lighter/slower/smaller" wheels better. Don't forget Sherman has bigger tire - much, much better than V12 at riding quality, even without dumb suspension.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

53 minutes ago, EMA said:

personally i was thinking the v11 would be a big seller, to me one of the best commuter medium wheel you can get

The V11 is the 2nd best selling euc's at EEVEES and e-rides. I am also puzzled by that at Alienrides. 

53 minutes ago, EMA said:

i'm surprised about the v12 which i consider a useless overstimated wheel with cutout issues

I shared a completely opposite viewpoint and experience. With the right tire and some fiddling with the firmware, I find it to be a supremely agile wheel that is stable and can brake very well. The wheel doesn't wobble under hard acceleration nor braking. I can follow cars at 60+, and feel confident I can brake in time. Mind you, I don't tailgate, but the braking is confidence inspiring. It doesn't wobble. Also, my V12 has never cutout. For high speed cornering, hard acceleration or hard braking, it isn't a high effort affair. It is a very easy to ride wheel.

Having said that though, when my V12 was stock, it was a far cry from what is now. The right tire, firmware fiddling, spike pedals / pads, and updated driver board are very important. My V12 used to be very ordinary. There was no way I could have ridden on main roads.

Edited October 13, 2022 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I shared a completely opposite viewpoint and experience. With the right tire and some fiddling with the firmware, I find it to be a supremely agile wheel that is stable and can brake very well. The wheel doesn't wobble under hard acceleration nor braking. I can follow cars at 60+, and feel confident I can brake in time. Mind you, I don't tailgate, but the braking is confidence inspiring. It doesn't wobble. Also, my V12 has never cutout. For high speed cornering, hard acceleration or hard braking, it isn't a high effort affair. It is a very easy to ride wheel.

Having said that though, when my V12 was stock, it was a far cry from what is now. The right tire, firmware fiddling, spike pedals / pads, and updated driver board are very important. My V12 used to be very ordinary. There was no way I could have ridden on main roads.

I am also another person on this forum who has had nothing but positive experience with the v12. Like you I have the HS (which to me just seems better than the HT on all fronts except for the rim. Granted i am a city rider) I get good range, good speed, good stability. I never cutout (old and new board fingers crossed). The wheel is a bit heavy for 16 inch wheel, but to me it rides more like an 18 inch wheel except for at the VERY top end of the wheel which I dont really get that high of speed often. 

with the cutout issues solved on this wheel. I am a bit stoked it is not a better seller. I do see quite a bit of them out in the wild in NYC. Not like the shermans or niks.. but i have seen more v12's that i thought i would see over here. 

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I am also another person on this forum who has had nothing but positive experience with the v12.

But the tire on your V12 was also changed. If fact, you changed it way before me. I was always inspired by how you were able to ride on NYC streets. It took me a while to figure it out, but in the end, I managed to improve it a lot. Just like you said, spike pedals help a lot too.

[jimjam.nyc]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But the tire on your V12 was also changed. If fact, you changed it way before me. I was always inspired by how you were able to ride on NYC streets. It took me a while to figure it out, but in the end, I managed to improve it a lot. Just like you said, spike pedals help a lot too.

Yes I changed the tire and pedals! The one thing i like about the new wheels and i will give begode credit on this as well. The foot plates they are coming with now out of the box are much better. Those skateboard grip tape footplates are just not good for anything above casual riding.

Now if only we can get good tires as stock, but i think that is pushing it. Some shops will fit a tire for you before shipping. at a cost obviously :-)

 

 

[0000]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

If said RS would have weighted 50 lbs it would have sold even better.. If V13 weight were "40lbs" it would sell like CUPCAKES!!! Even if it costed 4600$  

You need perfect synergy. Speed/Power/Weight/Range. 

Funky, I've seen you advocate this point quite often, but looking at the design of say the RS, where would you propose the design engineers make changes to shave off 10 to 15 lbs?

Starting with the battery packs, both the location and form factor are, IMO, ideally designed to balance the weight of the split packs as well as keep the overall width of the shell manageable. Furthermore, just looking at the shell in relation to the amount of wheel and tire showing past the shell (compared to other wheels), you can tell at a glance that the overall size of the shell is basically as compact as they can get it to, primarily to house the 24S2P battery packs, but also to package all of the rest of the components.

One possible optimization they could make is to remove the trolley handles which would allow them to shrink the shell slightly (while still leaving a little room for the main wire tunnel to the motor controller). However, the thin-shelled aluminum trolley handles are extremely light so you're not gaining much there and if they were going to do that, the market would probably reward them more for adding batteries going to 26S in this space rather than shrinking the shell.

I'll jump ahead a bit and say realistically the only feasible place to remove a noticeable amount of weight is in the battery configuration. Each 50E battery weighs about 69G and there are 96 cells in the RS. So realistically, you have 2 options here, remove a parallel group and/or remove an amount in series. A 24S3P configuration would remove 1656g or 3.65 lbs, while a 20S4P would remove 1104g or 2.4 lbs or combined 20S3P would remove 2484g or 5.5 lbs. I don't think the market would reward any of these configurations in prioritizing weight reduction over available battery capacity and performance, which I think was demonstrated very clearly with the RS Resolute. Furthermore, I think the 21700 battery form factor was and still is the best choice for power density given existing battery technology. Furthermore, in the unlikely event that significant gains in battery power density occur in the near future, there's a good chance we'll be able to remove the old and swap in new ones since there's nothing proprietary in the motor controller checking if your packs are "authentic" or not before delivering functionality.

So anyway, back to weight, the other in the EUC assembly where most of the weight is situated is in the motor/wheel combination. Much of the weight of the motor is tied up in the copper creating the motor phase windings which is not a candidate for weight reduction. With the RS specifically, presumably they've already gone through a weight reduction in their axle-less hub motor design, in addition to increasing the durability of the motor with this design. Both the motor shells and rim are already aluminum so you're not going to find a weight optimization through a change in material. Without doing the engineering analysis, there's an argument to be made that you could optimize geometry of the motor components considering many of the components that they use in the motor are optimized for cost and are common to probably a massive host of PEV motors being sold across a huge amount of product lines, but even so I doubt you'd get at most more than a couple pounds here and any specialization that reduces or eliminates commonality among these components would drive up costs.

I mentioned the rim, however, removal of material here can be counterproductive considering that the rim requires both rolling and impact durability, and also acts as a heat-sink for heat radiating out of the copper motor windings, through the outrunner air gap, and into the aluminum motor rim. A 14" motor/rim combo is going to require a certain amount of weight for a given durability and accessory heat dissipation at the intended maximum motor current levels and there's no getting around the physics and material properties involved. As for the RS tire, they already use what must be one of the lightest 19" tires on the market at around 1000g. It's already recommend to most aggressive riders to change this out to a more durable tire as my tire swap added about 1000g more to the mix.

Finally back to the shell itself, I'd say that this is injected molded plastic is already well engineered balancing between durability and weight. While the shell can survive some pretty hard hits, it's still recommended adding some kind of exterior protection to dampen the relatively large forces involved in a dismount at speed to prevent, at the very least, scratching the hell out of the shell which adds weight.

Anyway, I don't see the point of wishing for physics to be different, or worse, refusing to recognize that a certain power level, range, and/or wheel/tire size necessitates a certain amount of weight. Realistically, for the things people want their wheels to do today, it requires the wheels to be heavier than 60 lbs (not even touching on suspension) and no amount of prodding or desire is going to change reality, physics, and the inherent material properties involved.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Vanturion
missing words

[Freeforester]

Yep, unless and until battery energy density per kilo improves drastically, there won’t be much weight to be saved.

One of the major failing factors of the Hero (in my opinion) was the relative complexity of the ‘design’/build, something that Begode addressed in the Master and T4 by way of response, and we can all recall too, the efforts required by Kevin & others to get into the KS S20/22 motor. The InMotion wheels seem to be somewhat more involved when it comes to teardown time, the replacement of V12 mobos was hardly ‘plug and play’ in the first instance, istr.
 

Now with the Master, swapping out a tyre could hardly be more straightforward - there is apparently much to commend the user-friendly ‘design’, even overlooking the many, varied and somewhat glaring flaws momentarily.

[Funky]

We simply need "new" technology... Then we will get lighter wheels. cough Solid State Batteries cough

I understand that we can't make lighters wheels, if we want to keep the power/speed/range.

I don't understand why can't we simply tone it down, with all the speed/power/range? Take for example Master or T4 and make it.. Let's go "crazy" here and say 2x smaller. (I said let's go crazy...)

Mten4 is great small wheel. (Only small wheel made in last.. What 3 years?) Would love to have 16/18" wheel on it.  Going regular bicycle speeds - it would be great.

Something in middle Mten4 / ??? / T4 Not so crazy and not a toy. Are you saying they can't make something in between there? That would weight 20-25kg? I bet they can. (They are releasing wheels like rabbits in heat. -Yet they can't make one "smaller"?)

I'm more interested in those "Middle" ground wheels. Not a "toy", nor extreme wheel. I'm just crying, because no one is making "new" middle ground wheels. (16x/18xl/v10/nikola/tesla/msp)  Only heavy turds.  

Edited October 13, 2022 by Funky

[Cerbera]

I guesstimate there might be 15 lb of copper in this wheel ! So batteries are only half the story - we need motors that don't weigh half a ton either ! And structural components that are stronger than steel yet much much lighter.

I don't think we can necessarily have 'very fast' and 'very light' at the same time for quite some years yet ! And do we even want that ?  Heavier = more stable within a certain range surely ?

Edited October 13, 2022 by Cerbera

[EMA]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

The V11 is the 2nd best selling euc's at EEVEES and e-rides. I am also puzzled by that at Alienrides. 

I shared a completely opposite viewpoint and experience. With the right tire and some fiddling with the firmware, I find it to be a supremely agile wheel that is stable and can brake very well. The wheel doesn't wobble under hard acceleration nor braking. I can follow cars at 60+, and feel confident I can brake in time. Mind you, I don't tailgate, but the braking is confidence inspiring. It doesn't wobble. Also, my V12 has never cutout. For high speed cornering, hard acceleration or hard braking, it isn't a high effort affair. It is a very easy to ride wheel.

Having said that though, when my V12 was stock, it was a far cry from what is now. The right tire, firmware fiddling, spike pedals / pads, and updated driver board are very important. My V12 used to be very ordinary. There was no way I could have ridden on main roads.

 

6 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I am also another person on this forum who has had nothing but positive experience with the v12. Like you I have the HS (which to me just seems better than the HT on all fronts except for the rim. Granted i am a city rider) I get good range, good speed, good stability. I never cutout (old and new board fingers crossed). The wheel is a bit heavy for 16 inch wheel, but to me it rides more like an 18 inch wheel except for at the VERY top end of the wheel which I dont really get that high of speed often. 

with the cutout issues solved on this wheel. I am a bit stoked it is not a better seller. I do see quite a bit of them out in the wild in NYC. Not like the shermans or niks.. but i have seen more v12's that i thought i would see over here. 

i'm glad that you both have a flawless experience with your v12

my opinion is not fully related to the wheel itself but it mostly related to what you can get at the same price or weight 

[Nick McCutcheon]

@techyiam I'm curious where you're getting your sales info? 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Nick McCutcheon said:

@techyiam I'm curious where you're getting your sales

Best selling euc's at Alienrides

[jtm94]

I wanna start by saying this isn't based on anything, unless you have hard numbers talking about "which position" each wheel is in is pointless. We will have another EUC survey this year with hopefully even more information. Last year the top wheels were the V11, RS, and Sherman. Of those AR only sells the RS. If you are purely looking at what is selling you are not viewing the whole picture.... Small wheels will always continue to sell to a less vocal market with more mundane needs(pure commuting). People that are buying the smaller wheels and do not need to upgrade can keep those smaller wheels for years to come because nothing in that sector can be upgraded or improved upon in a meaningful way. So with that in mind of course small wheels will taper off, while we who crave speed/power/range will buy the next best thing every year.

Also keep in mind the audience AR serves, they are more into pushing performance vehicles and your average joe isn't going to always find them. If you want proof of small wheels still selling look at Amazon, they are slinging HUNDREDS of Inmotion wheels, at a rate AR could only dream of achieving. Every Prime day we probably gain hundreds of members in the community.

 

I don't have a problem with the bigger faster trend. Without a breakthrough in physics there isn't a way to make improvements to smaller wheels. Some wheels like the *ahem* S18 could absolutely be approved on by bringing the batteries in it to parity with others in its class. An S18XL or whatever they would call it would be a phenomenal wheel. The wheel lacks grunt and range, if you put molicels in it you have even less range. If it was either 100V, or had at least a 1800Wh battery it could easily contend with the T4, and you could run molicel without being at extremely low range.

Edited October 19, 2022 by jtm94

[wheelyboy]

Weight is a funny thing. People will complain when a wheel is too heavy, but if the wheel is made lighter by lowering the battery capacity, then the low range is now the problem. If the weight is lowered through other means, like lighter plastic shell, then the durability is called into question.

 

Definitely agree with you that at the moment, manufacturers are pushing the limits for speed. Probably because pushing the limits in terms of weight comes with too many tradeoffs. I think solid state batteries are too cutting edge for wheel manufacturers to consider. They are looking to turn a profit by combining motors, control boards, and batteries. Research into new battery technology is just not in the budget. Car manufacturers will need to lead the way here and I suspect we won't see solid state batteries in electric cars until 2025. Begode is willing to try alternative battery tech as indicated by the RS Resolute with LiFePO4 batteries, but when it didn't sell they moved on. Speed is way more sexy than improved longevity and battery safety from a marketing perspective.

[Funky]

43 minutes ago, wheelyboy said:

Weight is a funny thing. People will complain when a wheel is too heavy, but if the wheel is made lighter by lowering the battery capacity, then the low range is now the problem. If the weight is lowered through other means, like lighter plastic shell, then the durability is called into question.

 

Definitely agree with you that at the moment, manufacturers are pushing the limits for speed. Probably because pushing the limits in terms of weight comes with too many tradeoffs. I think solid state batteries are too cutting edge for wheel manufacturers to consider. They are looking to turn a profit by combining motors, control boards, and batteries. Research into new battery technology is just not in the budget. Car manufacturers will need to lead the way here and I suspect we won't see solid state batteries in electric cars until 2025. Begode is willing to try alternative battery tech as indicated by the RS Resolute with LiFePO4 batteries, but when it didn't sell they moved on. Speed is way more sexy than improved longevity and battery safety from a marketing perspective.

And then there's me. I would gladly take lighter wheel, instead of speed and range. Which i and i bet more people don't need. We would gladly take cheaper, smaller wheel.

Or if the wheel has all the bells and whistles, or are built like real motorcycle, not like a "toy" i would pay the premium. 

 

Then again i'm talking about "real" build quality - which i haven't seen in these wheels. Wood screws in plastic, high power wires dangling/exposed, two sided tape, list goes on...  I have already given over on that dream, you can't expect "much" from China and their quality. Most we can get is subpar - that gets "fixed" over many years.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Funky

[UtahRider]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:38 AM, jimjam.nyc said:

 I have to agree with @Funky. Especially on the build quality decreasing on these more powerful wheels. 

I am not shocked, but kind of scratching my head on why people would pay so much for these begode wheels, only to have to replace suspension geometries and buy full 3d printed systems to lift, store, and protect the thing from disintegrating when riding it. 

I wanted to like the v13 and s22 so bad, but i cant really justify the huge wheels and price. At the end of the day the older reliable wheels just make way more sense. 

I am constantly looking for my next wheel.. I keep going back to looking at the Sherman. I have a v12 and while i thought about selling it, it is almost perfect minus having suspension. Which i am starting to think is just not worth it to have suspension. 

If you want an EUC and can pay the $, what choice do u have? They’re all made in China w suspect quality and overpriced but fun is fun and you only live once (probably).