Inmotion V13 Speculation

[HEC]

17 minutes ago, Lets Do Science said:

Same exact thing happened to me few days ago about an hour after a riding mud/water/snow- screen blank wheel wouldn't turn on. After five minutes it finally kicked but the balancing was completely messed up, I had to re calibrate and reset all of my setting sliders was very strange. 

Disturbing! Same questions as for @Josiah, any audible warnings prior shutdown? Have you noticed temperature increase?

Did it shutdown right after you stopped riding? I'd report this to Inmotion, more users reporting it, more likely it will grab their attention and get addressed quickly. 

And I'd definitely use EUC World or similar app with temperature alarms and csv logging on.

Edited February 20, 2023 by HEC

[novazeus]

i agree with @HEC, except i'd ship the wheels back to jason and let him and inmotion figure it out. 

thanks to @Josiahand @Lets Do Science for letting us know. 

i have a lot less cows now than i use to have, and i won't be riding when it's wet, but slinging cow shit up there is probably worse, so no v13 pasture riding for me. when it gets here. 

[Lets Do Science]

26 minutes ago, HEC said:

Disturbing! Same questions as for @Josiah, any audible warnings prior shutdown? Have you noticed temperature increase?

Did it shutdown right after you stopped riding? I'd report this to Inmotion, more users reporting it, more likely it will grab their attention and get addressed quickly. 

It was a cold day probably high 30s, when I finally got it on I ran the Inmotion diagnostic and everything was fine. 

It didn't shut down during use or anything, I turned my wheel off and set it on my kickstand for a few minutes afterwards it wouldn't turn back on. 

[HEC]

13 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i agree with @HEC, except i'd ship the wheels back to jason and let him and inmotion figure it out.

Whichever way both @Josiah and @Lets Do Science decide to go with this (or anyone else with the same wheel behaviour), it's fine with me, as long as Inmotion is in loop ASAP to adress this. It might be addressed by firmware update for current wheels and perhaps some minor design change for future ones on top of that (heatsink cover or similar). And for everyone else I'd repeat my recommendation about using 3rd party app to monitor and alarm trigger temperature increases.

[HEC]

8 minutes ago, Lets Do Science said:

It was a cold day probably high 30s, when I finally got it on I ran the Inmotion diagnostic and everything was fine. 

It didn't shut down during use or anything, I turned my wheel off and set it on my kickstand for a few minutes afterwards it wouldn't turn back on. 

Right, so in your case it also happened after ride in mud, but you've managed to turn off the wheel.

I'd still grab the diagnostics logs from Inmotion app and upload it to customer support for them to investigate. 

Have you checked if the mud is covering the heatsink? 

[conecones]

2 hours ago, Lets Do Science said:

Same exact thing happened to me few days ago about an hour after a riding mud/water/snow- screen blank wheel wouldn't turn on. After five minutes it finally kicked but the balancing was completely messed up, I had to re calibrate and reset all of my setting sliders was very strange. 

That rear board (w/ connectors main board, batteries/charge port, rear light) is very exposed to water & dirt unless you add some kind flap or inner mud guard that is flexible enough to allow the suspension to move.  I posted this before but I'll post it again. I've updated the design to add a vent as someone mentioned it could be useful in hot weather.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5856406

[SquallLHeart]

6 hours ago, Lets Do Science said:

It was a cold day probably high 30s, when I finally got it on I ran the Inmotion diagnostic and everything was fine. 

It didn't shut down during use or anything, I turned my wheel off and set it on my kickstand for a few minutes afterwards it wouldn't turn back on. 

my initial thoughts are that there was an issue with moisture or water that caused an issue with the power button itself.. which then caused communication issues during the startup. you can still technically turn on the controller when the rest of the wheel stays off.. so no display and no balancing..

however, can still connect via Bluetooth as that is part of the controller.. if you hold the power button too long, it resets the calibration angle.. which looks like what you may have accidentally did.. thus why once the power button issue resolved itself and the wheel turned back on, you had to recalibrate.

the V13 can handle quite a bit of water, but in the end, it's still only rated IP55.. you can help waterproof it further with suggestions above, and then you can also protect the display and power button by covering it with like a screen protector or something over the top.

[InfiniteWheelie]

If anyone believes these Chinese e-wheels have actual water resistance certifications, I have a bridge to sell you.

Edited February 20, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[Uras]

12 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

If anyone believes these Chinese e-wheels have actual water resistance certifications, I have a bridge to sell you.

Yes, the V13 is already known not to be water resistant, or road salt resistant. There is experience of this already from members on this forum.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Uras

[novazeus]

y'all might need knobbys in ur slush, but honestly, idk what knobbys are good for besides picking up acorns and scraping against the fender. the s22 almost slid out from underneath me today when i ran over a fresh cow turd. normally i avoid shit but the cows were stampeding and i had to change course immediately. maybe a street tire would have been worse, idk. 

neltrek evolution is putting a michelin street pilot 2 on mine. maybe it will throw less crap up into the internals. my open jeep with it's offroad tires use to throw cactus into my leg. my place is dry all the time, unfortunately. 

after my brutal pasture ride today, a quick trip to my gate, and a horrible scraping sound on the way back. other than picking up acorns, i could live with the knobbys. the v13 knobby looks great. he's gonna send me the take off should i not like the street tire.

btw, jacob at neltrek says he expects to get bolts in 4 to 5 days. be interesting to see what inmotion sends out.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by novazeus

[2disbetter]

Based on the wheel not turning on after being turned off, I'd say the additional mudflap that conecones made is essential. Although not for the reasons you might expect. My thinking is that the mud, snow, slush just is a conductor of cold, and it drops the temps on the inside of the wheel significantly. 

Now as to what is happening on the wheel; my guess: the batteries, BMS, or control board got too cold. Most likely the batteries. The BMS detects this and in an effort to protect the batteries just will not turn on. However, it is only doing this when it is safe to do it. (IE: when the user has turned the wheel off.)

Long shot, but I say this because if it was something else it would cut out in the middle of ridding and it isn't doing that. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by 2disbetter

[HEC]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:04 AM, GPSchile said:

 
Back to the bolts... I received from Inmotion a photo of the new bolts. It is not a clear image nor it shows some important sections as the top of the head. However this photo supports what @HEC has noticed: that the new bolts are not like the technical sheet we got time ago of a flat hex head bolt. Instead these may well even be Torx head bolts. It is hard to see on the image but it does not look taper 60º neither. Time will tell. From what I was told, it seems that Inmotion will start sending tomorrow the new bolts to dealers.

One more still unclear point (with all the originally incorrect information circulated) is the actual recommend torque. Have you ben provided the correct value? And just to make it more "complicated",  recommend or max torque values for the bolts itself are not necessarily the ones required for actual assembly (as already discussed earlier in this thread). 

[HEC]

19 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

Based on the wheel not turning on after being turned off, I'd say the additional mudflap that conecones made is essential. Although not for the reasons you might expect. My thinking is that the mud, snow, slush just is a conductor of cold, and it drops the temps on the inside of the wheel significantly. 

Now as to what is happening on the wheel; my guess: the batteries, BMS, or control board got too cold. Most likely the batteries. The BMS detects this and in an effort to protect the batteries just will not turn on. However, it is only doing this when it is safe to do it. (IE: when the user has turned the wheel off.)

Long shot, but I say this because if it was something else it would cut out in the middle of ridding and it isn't doing that. 

I disagree. In @Josiah case wheel turned off itself while still powered (but not moving). And I highly doubt that additional layer of mud would result in battery packs or controller to "freeze" (literally, not figuratively). If anything, it would act as isolation and cause temperature increase rather then (any significant or persistent) decrease. In case of controller, the mud in heatsink fins will definitely decrease the airflow thus resulting in significant temperature increase. 

This could simply be verified by "experiment" by anyone brave enough to ride their V13 intentionally in mud while having EUC World or other app's csv logging and temperature alarms turned on.

[2disbetter]

Oh so you think it is a controller overheating issue then? As in the mud and grime is blocking airflow? 

[HEC]

6 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

Oh so you think it is a controller overheating issue then? As in the mud and grime is blocking airflow? 

Yes, that was my first guess. Alternatively some moist penetrating into some of the less protected circuit areas. 

[HEC]

Quick question for anyone here with V13 and using latest version of EUC World. What features are or aren't currently working? Thanks.

(rant removed)

Edited February 21, 2023 by HEC

[Punxatawneyjoe]

3 hours ago, HEC said:

the mud in heatsink fins

If you look at Josiah's picture , the mud did not reach the board and cant because of the inner fender. Also the fans would have turned on and when they do there is no mistaking that they are on because they are super loud. Stuff slings up past the bottom fender but it' doesn't get all the way to the board in the middle. The only board in jeopardy is the taillight board and that is wired into the power/display board. Not saying it's a water thing, but i don't feel like it overheated. OFC i was wrong about the bolt angle so....

[HEC]

18 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

If you look at Josiah's picture , the mud did not reach the board and cant because of the inner fender. Also the fans would have turned on and when they do there is no mistaking that they are on because they are super loud. Stuff slings up past the bottom fender but it' doesn't get all the way to the board in the middle. The only board in jeopardy is the taillight board and that is wired into the power/display board. Not saying it's a water thing, but i don't feel like it overheated. OFC i was wrong about the bolt angle so....

I see your point, the amount of mud or snow / water being "pinballed" off the inner side of mudguard towards the gap above the inner fender is unlikely to create sufficient clogging of the heatsink below controller board. There goes my theory 😥

In regads of fans, are you sure that they actually kick in based on controller board's temperature? Have you experienced it yourself? Based on all so far available information including the teardowns it seems that fans are being directly linked to front light only (i.e. only running when main light is on).

[HEC]

9 hours ago, novazeus said:

after my brutal pasture ride today, a quick trip to my gate, and a horrible scraping sound on the way back. other than picking up acorns, i could live with the knobbys. the v13 knobby looks great. he's gonna send me the take off should i not like the street tire.

The default V13 knobby tire is definitely "acorn proof" based on it's pattern. Let us know how do you enjoy your street tire once your V13 arrives. 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

16 minutes ago, HEC said:

it seems that fans are being directly linked to front light only

I agree,i feel like it's primary function is to keep the headlight cool but since it's mounted in front of the heat sink for the raptor controller, it may also come on if the board gets hot. I have not experienced this only them coming on for the headlight, just a guess and the board heat sink fins aren't super long like it has a ton of heat to get rid of so i can't confirm it's for the board at all.

[Ronin]

 

[HEC]

21 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I agree,i feel like it's primary function is to keep the headlight cool but since it's mounted in front of the heat sink for the raptor controller, it may also come on if the board gets hot. I have not experienced this only them coming on for the headlight, just a guess and the board heat sink fins aren't super long like it has a ton of heat to get rid of so i can't confirm it's for the board at all.

By linked I meant electrically rather than by location. Also the distance between the actual fans and controller's heatsink is large enough to result in significantly diminished / spread airflow from the fans (compared to "natural" airflow generated by moving EUC).

[2disbetter]

1 hour ago, Ronin Ryder said:

 

Thanks Ronin for the review. I have seen quite the opposite on YT videos from Cali. I think for the speed freaks the Master makes more sense, but honestly I feel the V13 is the Cadillac of the EUCs right now, only it is also the most powerful. Freespin of 140 km/h is no joke. 

Right now Inmotion is dealing with a cutout issue and some QA concerns, but still these things are being addressed and in light of that, the wheel is just engineered superior to the Master. Your batteries aren't going to ignite, and you have head room at the limits of the wheel. This doesn't mean you are invincible with it. I just think that Inmotion's attempts at focusing on the safety of EUCs is paramount and really should get more praise that it is getting. 

1 hour ago, HEC said:

By linked I meant electrically rather than by location. Also the distance between the actual fans and controller's heatsink is large enough to result in significantly diminished / spread airflow from the fans (compared to "natural" airflow generated by moving EUC).

I do wonder why the fan comes on for the light? I mean how much power is getting pumped into that light? Does it REALLY need the cooling when in use? 

[Stevebee]

26 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

 

I do wonder why the fan comes on for the light? I mean how much power is getting pumped into that light? Does it REALLY need the cooling when in use? 

V11 is same - the fan is on when the light is on, quite noisy as well 

[HEC]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

I do wonder why the fan comes on for the light? I mean how much power is getting pumped into that light? Does it REALLY need the cooling when in use? 

The headlight is strong, rated at 18 W, consisting of two 3 segment LED chips, and with fairly "minuscule" heatsink and two 40 mm screaming fans. Frankly, I'd prefer much larger heatsink and no fans (as I'm not really big fan of fans in portable outdoor devices) or at least with under-voltage running fans to minimize the noise. I'll be looking into both increasing the size of headlight's heatsink as well as either replacing the fans by quiet ones or at least decreasing the voltage a bit as I always ride with headlights on even during the day for increased safety. 

My choice - silent and only 1 third of power consumption (plus could be even quieter with included LNA):

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by HEC