Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Uras]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:03 PM, HEC said:

1. V13 is using 18650 cells, not 2170.

that's pretty disappointing for a current wheel 

[HEC]

1 hour ago, Uras said:

that's pretty disappointing for a current wheel 

Why? I'd much rather have tested and reliable cells of smaller form factor than larger ones just for sake if "inovation". I'm sure Inmotion is looking into using new battery cell formats and once they're confident enough that it will be a significant improvement (which I don't think it is at the moment) without compromising safety and quality, they'll use them in future / new EUCs.

Edited February 20, 2023 by HEC

[HEC]

2 hours ago, GPSchile said:

 
Back to the bolts... I received from Inmotion a photo of the new bolts. It is not a clear image nor it shows some important sections as the top of the head. However this photo supports what @HEC has noticed: that the new bolts are not like the technical sheet we got time ago of a flat hex head bolt. Instead these may well even be Torx head bolts. It is hard to see on the image but it does not look taper 60º neither. Time will tell. From what I was told, it seems that Inmotion will start sending tomorrow the new bolts to dealers.

Thanks for sharing that! Yeah, we've discussed the taper angles further in the V13 Useful information thread and conclusion is that it's most likely 90°. At which case though it's basically impossible (at least for me) to find the source to purchase those, as the insert bolts I've shared image of before here (with head shaped similarly to original bolts), are available with 60° tapered head only it seems. Here is the idea I've posted in the other thread for angle verification:

What about this (apologies for my crude drawing):

Measure A, B, C and calculate the Alpha angle (C need to be at the "edge", not to the top of the rounded head):

Edited February 20, 2023 by HEC

[HEC]

33 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I'm not changing mine at all, not worried one bit. It was a mistake by someone that got blown way out of proportion.

Absolutely. Same here, despite me causing all the "ruckus" about the bolt specs (and still awaiting not only my "misplaced" V13 but also an answer from the seller if they'll be sending the "official" replacement bolts received from Inmotion or not). I simply wanted to get the right specs and purchase bolts as spares, in case they'd sheared (which I doubt), and once I'll be replacing the tire or inner tube, I'll inspect original bolts and decide whether to swap them or not (probably yes though as the wheel will be already disassembled anyway).

[Punxatawneyjoe]

35 minutes ago, HEC said:

purchase bolts

Sorry to hear yours is still lost in the void, i can assure you when you get it you will love it. It's super planted and if you set the suspension up correctly , it rides like a Cadillac. I'm getting used to it super fast and it's almost as maneuverable as my v11, just requires a bit more effort to spin it side to side. Off road clearance is way better than the 11 also. As far as the bolts are concerned, I'm not worried but i did look several places and cant seem to find a 11mm head to the m6x25 all of them seem to be 13mm or some say 11.23-13mm so it's like a guessing game on head size i guess. Anyway, hope you get yours soon. It's a beast that just wants to speeeeed...

[HEC]

40 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

As far as the bolts are concerned, I'm not worried but i did look several places and cant seem to find a 11mm head to the m6x25 all of them seem to be 13mm or some say 11.23-13mm so it's like a guessing game on head size i guess. Anyway, hope you get yours soon. It's a beast that just wants to speeeeed...

Thanks. Fingers crossed I'll get some "investigation" update today (Monday) by UPS. It was unfortunate that I needed to wait twice over the weekend as there is zero support outside weekdays and the parcel have been considered "misplaced" on Friday evening and investigation launched the whole week after, yet again on Friday evening despite both myself and seller reporting it MIA since last Monday (what a crappy service). With a bit of luck it will pop up somewhere while not beaten to pulp, or at least seller will be willing to send replacement instead of refund. At this point I've accepted the likelihood of waiting for another 2 months ...

And in regads of the bolts, yeah they seem to be extremely tricky (if not impossible) to source from common suppliers, hopefully Inmotion will be offering those eventually as spare parts through their resellers. 

[Uras]

3 hours ago, HEC said:

Why? I'd much rather have tested and reliable cells of smaller form factor than larger ones just for sake if "inovation". I'm sure Inmotion is looking into using new battery cell formats and once they're confident enough that it will be a significant improvement (which I don't think it is at the moment) without compromising safety and quality, they'll use them in future / new EUCs.

You might be thinking 26650? They're the relatively new kids on the block. 21700 has been out for years now, and have probably evolved as much as they are going to. 5000mah per cell is fairly standard. You can get 18650 up to 4000mah. The only reason I can see for 18650 is cost saving - there is a lot of stock especially as things have migrated to 21700. 21700 is a larger format but is still more bang for the same space and weight, and less cells, which means less to go wrong. I just assumed all recent wheels would have this (last 2 years or so; tesla cars for longer). For example, the V11, s22, I assume all recent begode wheels, leaper kim etc use 21700 batteries. I'd question whether the V13 really does use 18650.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Uras

[HEC]

1 minute ago, Uras said:

You might be thinking 26650? They're the relatively new kids on the block. 21700 has been out for years now, and have probably evolved as much as they are going to. 5000mah per cell is fairly standard. You can get 18650 up to 4000mah, but that isn't standard - 3000 looks the average. The only reason I can see for 18650 is cost saving. 21700 is a larger format but is still for bang for the same space and weight. I just assumed all recent wheels would have this (last 2 years or so).

No, I was thinking about 2170 cells. But it's not just simple one to one swap, various design and manufacturing changes needs to be performed as well when cell form factor changes. Size, BMS, thermal properties, vibration / shock resistance, firmware and so on are all the factors to be considered. All fairly complex especially in such compact, mobile and battery critically dependent device like EUC. Plus, the benefits are not really that significant in coming from 18650 to 2170 with fairly low battery capacities. I'd say they'll become a factor with battery packs at least one order of magnitude larger (so basically small electric cars and above).

There is nothing wrong IMO in using "older" technology (unless a significant benefit will be gained by using newer one), some basic technology stuff haven't changed for decades. And, in the end, the common Joe consumer doesn't give a f**k (and likely doesn't even have a clue) what form factor or specific brand / model of batteries is being used in their device as long as it's operational and reliable. 

[Josiah]

 

My wheel suddenly turned off after a sort 30 minute ride today.  Luckily I was stopped and sitting on it right after I lifted the pedals to trolley when it shut off by itself.  I thought somehow I had pushed the power button and then press it power to restart the wheel.  It wouldn’t turn back on.  Batterie was about 70%.  Tried for three minutes to turn it back on.  Threw it in the van and 50 minutes later it turned on just fine and was good for another 30 minute ride no issue.

there was some water and mud inside the open space under the board so I’m thinking about the plug idea.

I might mod a black plastic soffit vent so the plug is breathable.

 

Vent Cover - Round Soffit Vent - Air Vent Louver - Grille Cover - Built-in Fly Screen Mesh - HVAC Ventilation (4'' Inch, Plastic - Black) https://a.co/d/54z1Kmo

 

[conecones]

3 hours ago, HEC said:

Thanks for sharing that! Yeah, we've discussed the taper angles further in the V13 Useful information thread and conclusion is that it's most likely 90°. At which case though it's basically impossible (at least for me) to find the source to purchase those, as the insert bolts I've shared image of before here (with head shaped similarly to original bolts), are available with 60° tapered head only it seems. Here is the idea I've posted in the other thread for angle verification:

What about this (apologies for my crude drawing):

Measure A, B, C and calculate the Alpha angle (C need to be at the "edge", not to the top of the rounded head):

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/31550-inmotion-v13-useful-information/?do=findComment&comment=462541

[HEC]

1 hour ago, Josiah said:

My wheel suddenly turned off after a sort 30 minute ride today.  Luckily I was stopped and sitting on it right after I lifted the pedals to trolley when it shut off by itself.  I thought somehow I had pushed the power button and then press it power to restart the wheel.  It wouldn’t turn back on.  Batterie was about 70%.  Tried for three minutes to turn it back on.  Threw it in the van and 50 minutes later it turned on just fine and was good for another 30 minute ride no issue.

That's not good. Have you ran the diagnostic in the Inmotion app? It might be worth contacting Inmotion support and upload diagnostic logs to them. Were there any audible warnings prior shutdowns? Are you on the latest firmware?

I'd recommend to use EUC World (or similar 3rd party app) for future couple of rides with csv logs and temperature alarms automatically enabled and checking for the sudden temperature rise or any other possible factors causing this. I suspect it might be caused by mud clogging the bottom of the controller board heatsink. Basically as soon as you've stopped, the (already restricted) airflow through heatsink stopped too, which could have caused the thermal shutdown.

Please keep us updated on this. TA.

Edited February 20, 2023 by HEC

[Uras]

1 hour ago, HEC said:

But it's not just simple one to one swap

Well no, not a swap. I think recent wheels would just be designed for 21700, just like other wheels, scooters, cars etc, even inmotion itself (V11, V12). Too late now. Still, I'd question whether they do actually use 18650's in the v13 - it doesn't make sense.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Uras

[Eyss]

42 minutes ago, HEC said:

suspect it might be caused by mud clogging the bottom of the controller board heatsink.

The mudguard doesn't seem to guard much

[HEC]

6 minutes ago, Uras said:

Well no, not a swap. I think recent wheels would just be designed for 21700, just like other wheels, scooters, cars etc, even inmotion itself (V11, V12). Too late now. Still, I'd question whether they do actually use 18650's in the v13 - it doesn't make sense.

I indeed mean swap in design stage, which on its own takes many months. On other hand, with highly modular design of V13 and battery packs begin basically part of external structure, Inmotion can in future design and offer extended range battery packs, even based on 2170 as long as rest of the wheel will have sufficient specs to accommodate those. With current safety margins and special firmware update I can see that being a feasible option. 

[HEC]

5 minutes ago, Eyss said:

The mudguard doesn't seem to guard much

The mud guard is there to protect your back, not the inner compartment above the spinning wheel, which needs to be opened to allow airflow for cooling. 

[GPSchile]

5 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I'm not changing mine at all, not worried one bit. It was a mistake by someone that got blown way out of proportion.

I totally understand your view and agree that it may have blown out of proportion. I do not know how isolated are these cases. Anyway, I have to comply with changing all these bolts prior delivery. My order of V13 is due to arrive in lesser than two weeks and I have been looking for alternatives to prevent delays (with Inmotion's permission). Their finding included some inconsistent quality of bolt production, causing to change their source and it makes sense to me to minimize any possible risk.
As a customer I would just check their torque and recheck their status after 500 km. I do not thank my riding style sets any risk for any bolt.
Inmotion is sending new bolts to all dealers as well as early customers anyway. Soon, this should no longer be an issue.

[HEC]

12 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

Inmotion is sending new bolts to all dealers as well as early customers anyway. Soon, this should no longer be an issue.

Thanks for an update about this. Would you happen to know if Inmotion is sending those automatically to all dealers or do they need to explicitly request those? Either way, I'm going to poke my dealer again about those.

Edited February 20, 2023 by HEC

[HEC]

And, one more "critical accessory" for our V13s 🚳 :

 

[GPSchile]

42 minutes ago, HEC said:

Thanks for an update about this. Would you happen to know if Inmotion is sending those automatically to all dealers or do they need to explicitly request those? Either way, I'm going to poke my dealer again about those.

I was directly contacted by Inmotion on this regard. I can just assume this happened with other dealers as well. Either way, it is good you to ask your dealer just in case is not aware. Inmotion sent a mandatory instruction to replace these bolts prior delivery as well as offered options for customers willing to change them themselves. 

[Chucka Wheelie]

Random V13 22inch tyre question... 

How much tyre sealant do you guys reckon we need to put into the V13 tyre???   I'm currently using Armor Dilloz Blue.  

[novazeus]

7 hours ago, HEC said:

Thanks for an update about this. Would you happen to know if Inmotion is sending those automatically to all dealers or do they need to explicitly request those? Either way, I'm going to poke my dealer again about those.

i've posted this before. this was the best info i've found regarding the bolt replacement necessity.

https://www.neltrekevolution.com/products/Product-safety-recalls-c145292181

[HEC]

1 minute ago, novazeus said:

i've posted this before. this was the best info i've found regarding the bolt replacement necessity.

https://www.neltrekevolution.com/products/Product-safety-recalls-c145292181

Yeah, I remember, and I've also replied to your original post about it that I've found that announcement too. But it didn't explicitly stated that Inmotion is sending the bolts all dealers, thus my above question. In the meantime @GPSchile confirmed that seems to be the case as Inmotion contacted him on their own. 

[novazeus]

INMOTION's analysis:

"V13 Bolt Fracture Analysis and Solutions

• Analysis 1: After inspection, the bolt strength grade provided by the supplier does not meet our requirements, and the bolt strength is at least 20% lower than the design requirement. Does not meet design requirements. The bolt strength is reduced, causing the bolt to break more easily here. 
• Analysis 2: When fixing the motor, due to lack of tools, the bolt pre-tightening torque was not measured here, resulting in breakage caused by excessive pre-tightening torque of some bolts.
• Analysis 3 : The angle of the bolt taper head produced by the supplier does not meet the requirements.When the bolt is tightened, the bolt taper head is in line contact with the taper hole of the inner slide rail,which is likely to cause the deformation of the aluminum alloy inner slide rail, resulting in a gap, and easily causing the bolt to break due to impact. 

Final solution: 

1. Subsequent shipments are all produced according to the latest plan. 

2. Inventory products are reworked and replaced. 

3. For wheels that have been shipped but not sold, the bolts will be replaced by the distributors . 

4. For the user who has received it, the user will replace it, and those who are unwilling to replace it by themselves, send it back to the seller for replacement.

[novazeus]

10 hours ago, Josiah said:

 

My wheel suddenly turned off after a sort 30 minute ride today.  Luckily I was stopped and sitting on it right after I lifted the pedals to trolley when it shut off by itself.  I thought somehow I had pushed the power button and then press it power to restart the wheel.  It wouldn’t turn back on.  Batterie was about 70%.  Tried for three minutes to turn it back on.  Threw it in the van and 50 minutes later it turned on just fine and was good for another 30 minute ride no issue.

there was some water and mud inside the open space under the board so I’m thinking about the plug idea.

I might mod a black plastic soffit vent so the plug is breathable.

 

Vent Cover - Round Soffit Vent - Air Vent Louver - Grille Cover - Built-in Fly Screen Mesh - HVAC Ventilation (4'' Inch, Plastic - Black) https://a.co/d/54z1Kmo

 

admittely, i am a big chicken when it comes to wheels after years of hearing about true cut outs and face plants. if u ride a wheel, being paranoid about cut outs and face plants, isn't a bad thing. 

if that were my wheel, i wouldn't be riding it again until the problem was identified and fixed. guessing doesn't count. 

might be good timimg to pack her up and send it to jason and let him diagnose it and replace the bolts at the same time.

yesterday i dropped my s22 a couple of times, once with me on it. in the pasture after it falling because of a limb buried in the grass, i picked it up and it said "e" something, like error, then the display went right back to the zero number. 

faceplanting in the pasture wouldn't be pleasant but not as bad as faceplanting on my road. 

when i ride a wheel, or when i rode street motorcycles, i was always thinking 100% about what i was doing and what the machine was doing. any abnormality would be addressed. like any weird pedal dipping or tiltback.

yesterday was my first pasture trips on these two kingsongs after 100 miles each on non wheel stressing pavement. i know my pastures will stress a wheel. i won't be riding the s18 again in the pastures because it just isn't strong enough. 

[Lets Do Science]

11 hours ago, Josiah said:

 

My wheel suddenly turned off after a sort 30 minute ride today.  Luckily I was stopped and sitting on it right after I lifted the pedals to trolley when it shut off by itself.  I thought somehow I had pushed the power button and then press it power to restart the wheel.  It wouldn’t turn back on.  Batterie was about 70%.  Tried for three minutes to turn it back on.  Threw it in the van and 50 minutes later it turned on just fine and was good for another 30 minute ride no issue.

Same exact thing happened to me few days ago about an hour after a riding mud/water/snow- screen blank wheel wouldn't turn on. After five minutes it finally kicked but the balancing was completely messed up, I had to re calibrate and reset all of my setting sliders was very strange.