Selecting EUC - a puzzle of requirements.

[Alj]

EUC noob here, trying to pick my first wheel.

I'm 6'6 (198cm)  220lb(100kg). I live in rainy area with many hills. In order to get home i need to climb 450 ft over 2.5 miles.

I don't plan to go too fast but safety is priority I'd love to have some power reserve.

I don't plan to ride in the rain but rain can just happen here without asking for permission so i'm pretty positive one day I will be showered upon, no doubt in that.

First question - i heard 18' wheel is a must for tall people, how much is that important? Why bigger well is good for tall people? (THat will help me pick KS16 vs KS18 if i decided to go with that brand).

I also read many reviews and videos and concluded that Inmotion will not work for me. THere is not way V10F will make it without overheating and stopping several times. However that's the only brand that seems like cares about waterproofing to some extend (i see that the controller board is sealed in a box).

I watched "overheat hill test" videos and saw that KS16X and KS18XL have much better cooling system (KS16X is being the best to the point that you just can forget about overheating). But Disassembly videos show that controller and connectors are all exposed to elements.

So the second question - did anybody try to waterproof KS wheels? I read here on the forums that KS16X is particularly bad.... or all of them are bad? I looks at the videos and it seems like KS has potential for waterproofing because wheel is in solid enclosure (vs 2 halfs like with other brands), one heatsink window will be easy to waterproof. But from the top it is unclear. I guess you can tape over headlights/LEDs. replace power button with the one that survives nuclear attack, put dielectric grease on all connections and exposed metal, but the top cover seems like completely unslealed and rain will be dripping on the controller board but i cannot tell for sure from those videos. Suit case handle probably also introduces water ingress which cannot be sealed anyhow.... Unless maybe if I cover the whole thing with plastic bag when it rains?

 

What else could you recommend in my situation? Maybe there is something out there that is both waterproof AND climbs long hills?

[.....]

I find my taller wheel is more comfy (6'3") as it rides higher up my long leg to my knee. But, the difference in 16 vs 18 is very slight in that regard. The ks16x had reports of not being so great in water. At least the first ones. The 18L and 18xl are proven to be as good in water as expected. The trolley handle ingress is BELOW the circuit board. Tho not waterproof, the layout makes it very water resistant. I don't know about torrential rains, but if you had to, I guess you could put a bag over it.  If you only need 2 miles, MAYBE you can find a good deal on a used 18L or XL? Either has WAY more range than 20 miles and safely. Theres also gotway. As you're a large person, you will hear recommendations for a higher power wheel. I am only versed in KS for larger wheels, so I cant comment.

Look around and youll find MANY posts asking the same questions as you are. Unfortunately, I dont know of ANY wheel that promises to be waterproof. If you were so inclined, you could probably find some form of rubber boot that redirects the water from around the trolley slides.Boots wouldnt have to move, only stay at the top so it would redirect when trolley was completely down.  Just do some research and eventually youll have to just give one a try. I'd suggest buying from a reputable source new or not. As you plan on bathing these regularly, you may want to not spend top$$ and stick with something that has a lot of parts available, for just in case. Buying up tube silicone  and sealing it even further than the factory does, is always an option. If you do, get REAL silicone, its just much better, tho costs more.

Welcome to the forums by the way!

Edited May 11, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Alj]

5 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If you only need 2 miles, MAYBE you can find a good deal on a used 18L or XL? Either has WAY more range than 20 miles and safely.

Nah - 2 miles is to get the idea of incline. My commute is about 18 miles, I know those wheels can travel 50 miles or more but i suspect with this hill and my weight the number will be quite tight even with the large battery.

5 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 Theres also gotway. As you're a large person, you will hear recommendations for a higher power wheel. I am only versed in KS for larger wheels, so I cant comment.

By power you mean motor power or battery power delivery? It seems like KS focuses on former where gotway on later.

5 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Look around and youll find MANY posts asking the same questions as you are. Unfortunately, I dont know of ANY wheel that promises to be waterproof. If you were so inclined, you could probably find some form of rubber boot that redirects the water from around the trolley slides.Boots wouldnt have to move, only stay at the top so it would redirect when trolley was completely down.

hmmm.... or seat, KS18/16 have aftermarket rubber seat which completely covers the handle.

5 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

  Just do some research and eventually youll have to just give one a try. I'd suggest buying from a reputable source new or not. As you plan on bathing these regularly, you may want to not spend top$$ and stick with something that has a lot of parts available, for just in case..

 

5 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Welcome to the forums by the way!

Thanks!

[Meserias]

you need to take in to account a serious wheel for 18 miles (that's 28km !) commute and your 100kg weight ...
Gotway Monster V3 latest version it's for you - because you will also need to stay on it and get this free for now and also 4Amps charger.

in order to climb just set you vehicle in to Expert mode and move your feet slightly forward on pedals .... it will be less easier to climb.

[.....]

I get 30 miles at a 25mph average in mountain streets on the 18L. For a heavier rider, I'd bet 20 miles on mountains and speeds. So, you probably need look into the 18XL or larger. Gotway makes the biggest wheels atm, but it too comes with trade-offs. Ive heard good things of the Nikola too.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Alj said:

First question - i heard 18' wheel is a must for tall people, how much is that important? Why bigger well is good for tall people? (THat will help me pick KS16 vs KS18 if i decided to go with that brand).

Taller people tend to be heavier, bigger diameter wheels tend to be stronger, and for a taller person an 18 inch wheel is about as big as a 16 inch wheel for a shorter person. Wheel size is relative to the rider.

To be fair, there are actual 16 inch diameter wheels (Tesla, 16S, etc.) and the 16X/Nikola which are nearly 18 inch in diameter. And 18 inch wheels are maybe 19 (2.5 inch wide) to 20 (3 inch wide) inches. Most people mean the actual 16 inchers when recommending a bigger wheel for taller riders. The 16X and Nik should count as being in the 18 incher group.

1 hour ago, Alj said:

By power you mean motor power or battery power delivery? It seems like KS focuses on former where gotway on later.

No, not really. Bigger battery = stronger (more parallel battery cell blocks).

Motor power is mostly meaningless except as a very rough guide how powerful the motor will feel. Details depend on the individual wheel model.

1 hour ago, Alj said:

My commute is about 18 miles

Wow, that is very long for a EUC. It's like 1 hour of riding if you have stops (traffic lights etc.). Consider alternatives to EUCs too (suited towards higher speeds than EUCs, like a serious ebike).

2 hours ago, Alj said:

In order to get home i need to climb 450 ft over 2.5 miles.

That's not a hill, that's a just a joke No EUC you consider will have any problems with that. Don't worry about that.

-

In short, all wheels are great, and you can do anything with every (powerful enough) wheel. But you can choose the best wheel for you.

For a a) regular commute and b) loooooong regular commute (18 miles wow!) I would recommend a tire that is as comfortable as possible. 3 inch wide, and as big as it can be.

So I'm recommending the Gotway Msuper Pro (MSP). It also has a bigger battery than the two 1554=1600Wh King Songs, which might very well make a difference - you're not light, and you will go want to fast on such a long commute. You might not have to charge at work, you will have more reserves in any case.

There's the Monster, but I personally really dislike it. Too unwieldy and not-fun, it's just a heavy weight that goes straight.

[Meserias]

also you may consider this site  for good prices...
Monster it's special, and indeed it's a trade off.

I'm thinking that your commute (way to long and also you are quite heavy...) it's following good roads and it's merely on straight line on tarmac.
On MSP you could develop some fatigue because of pedals dihedral angle...

Edited May 11, 2020 by Meserias

[Alj]

Ok Ordered KS-18XL. Maybe it is worse than gotwel but it seems like better overall beginner wheel and it looks more ergonomical (better carrying handle and so on). + looking at various videos of burned MOSFETs inside of gotwel (even newer ones) makes me wonder about design quality. I mean you can calculate this stuff (peak current, power dissipation) prior to printing circuit, it is not rocket science, anyone with EE degree will not make that mistake.

Thanks for help.

[Alj]

18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 

No, not really. Bigger battery = stronger (more parallel battery cell blocks).

Probably the maker of the battery is also important but you will never find that out without breaking warranty lol.

18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Wow, that is very long for a EUC. It's like 1 hour of riding if you have stops (traffic lights etc.).

No lights, its a bicycle trail all the way (yes those exist in USA in some areas). But there are several hills on the way, takes me 2 hours on a regular bicycle mostly due to hills.

18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 

Consider alternatives to EUCs too (suited towards higher speeds than EUCs, like a serious ebike).

Ebike has a problem of being boring and not allowed in the elevator of our office building.

18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's not a hill, that's a just a joke No EUC you consider will have any problems with that. Don't worry about that.

Well... it is 100-150m elevation. I watched videos of v10 shutting down due to overheating on 50 meter hill. Of course i dont have my own experience but most likely i wont be able to resell this wheel if i get wrong one.

18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Alj said:

Ok Ordered KS-18XL.

That is a great and a safe choice, well done!

1 hour ago, Alj said:

burned MOSFETs inside of gotwel (even newer ones) makes me wonder about design quality. I mean you can calculate this stuff (peak current, power dissipation) prior to printing circuit, it is not rocket science, anyone with EE degree will not make that mistake.

It’s not as simple as it sounds. The 18XL burns fuses in extreme situations, despite having much tighter warning mechanisms in place. The easiest way to burn Mosfets on any wheel is to idle back and forth strongly. The heat builds up so fast that the warning mechanisms are sometimes unable to warn the rider in time. GWs are also ridden much harder and in more challenging environments than the rest, because they don’t stop the fun as soon, but indeed go far enough to burn themselves.

 One thing to note in your case, for every wheel is that if you start to descend a hill with a full battery, you will soon be kicked off, either gently or violently. You might have to make a habit of riding around on the yard for a minute first.

[Alj]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It’s not as simple as it sounds. The 18XL burns fuses in extreme situations, despite having much tighter warning mechanisms in place.

Ouch! Fuses? You mean to save the rig instead of life? :-) There is an empty niche for those devices to be done up to automotive standards reliability-wise. 

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 One thing to note in your case, for every wheel is that if you start to descend a hill with a full battery, you will soon be kicked off, either gently or violently. You might have to make a habit of riding around on the yard for a minute first.

Yeh i was thinking of that. My plan was to try not to charge battery completely (maybe leave 10%). It would be nice if software had that feature.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Alj said:

Ouch! Fuses? You mean to save the rig instead of life? :-) 

Yep. Not going to insert a joke about KS vs GW safety this time, since the fuses are actually well enough implemented that they don’t blow during riding except maybe in extremely rare occasions. Which can be said about a GW blowing MOSFETs as well.

Quote

Yeh i was thinking of that. My plan was to try not to charge battery completely (maybe leave 10%).

Bad plan. Your battery will be bust before you reach 1000-3000 miles on your wheel if you don’t balance the battery cells religiously. Balancing only starts to happen when some of the cells reach 100%. Balancing at every tenth charge (the old recommendation) has proven to not be enough.

A few hours of balancing around every third charge is a reasonable sounding recommendation based on everything we’ve been able to gather so far.

Edited May 12, 2020 by mrelwood

[Alj]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Yep. Not going to insert a joke about KS vs GW safety this time, since the fuses are actually well enough implemented that they don’t blow during riding except maybe in extremely rare occasions. Which can be said about a GW blowing MOSFETs as well.

Well extreme case could be short circuit, not anything that user have caused. Imagine you car would explode every time you press the gas pedal too far? BTW i checked GW circuitry more carefully - they attach mosfets to a small aluminum plate through a silicon pad (electric insulator) then they attach aluminum plate to a main heat sink.  People do not use silicon pads for high power applications (not good enough heat conductance). Have to pick some parts with built in ceramic insulator to avoid silicon pads (or any other electrical insulation) and attach them directly to main heatsink (not some tiny aluminum pad) using thermopaste (which was also not being used in this case).  Here's the video where those transistors are shown https://youtu.be/cncBNATkUjg?t=72   

 

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Bad plan. Your battery will be bust before you reach 1000-3000 miles on your wheel if you don’t balance the battery cells religiously. Balancing only starts to happen when some of the cells reach 100%. Balancing at every tenth charge (the old recommendation) has proven to not be enough.

A few hours of balancing around every third charge is a reasonable sounding recommendation based on everything we’ve been able to gather so far.

DOh! I didn't even think of that. Well the energy I need to burn going down that hill is pretty substantial. I wonder how efficient is recuperation. I e absorbing energy of 100 m hill is equal to riding 30m up the hill - something like that perhaps? So maybe i can ride about 30 m uphill before going into descent, i hope it is sufficient, what do you think?

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, Alj said:

Well extreme case could be short circuit, not anything that user have caused.

A short circuit is not something that happens on an EUC while riding. The fuses out MOSFETs can blow if for example a big stick jams the tire, in which case the rider is flying in any case.

3 minutes ago, Alj said:

Imagine you car would explode every time you press the gas pedal too far?

The MOSFETs or fuses won’t blow from a hard acceleration. Hard idling for a minute  perhaps, since the highest current peaks are created when the wheel starts to move from stationary.

3 minutes ago, Alj said:

BTW i checked GW circuitry more carefully - they attach mosfets to a small aluminum plate through a silicon pad (electric insulator) then they attach aluminum plate to a main heat sink.

It’s not a silicon or silicone pad, but a specific thermal pad that is designed to have a very high thermal conductivity. Thermal paste is not required with a thermal pad, since the soft pad already conforms to the little nooks and crannies. This is a standard practice when the MOSFETs need to be electrically insulated from the heat sink. The 18XL uses similar thermal pads as well.

I don’t know which GW main board you were looking at, but at least the MSX has the MOSFETs bolted to the heat sink without any additional plates.

3 minutes ago, Alj said:

maybe i can ride about 30 m uphill before going into descent, i hope it is sufficient, what do you think?

Could be, but I would slalom my way down in any case, as it helps both in burning energy and keeping your speed in check. Now that you know that this is going to be an issue, just ride slow downhill, don’t brake abruptly, and listen to any warnings from the wheel. If it starts to beep, slalom tight and turn to ride a bit further uphill.

 Accelerating uphill takes the most energy, so you can accelerate, let the wheel slow down, accelerate, etc, and you should have the required headroom in no time.

[mike_bike_kite]

The 18XL is quite a good choice for your commute but just remember it takes time to learn how to ride these things. If you can find someone local just to show you the ropes then that will save a lot of time. Just don't expect to be able to commute 18 miles the day after you receive the wheel - it will feel like skiing for 18 miles while only being able to do snow plough turns. It's also worth investing in some protective gear. I'd get a helmet, wrist guards and knee pads for you and some foam padding for the wheel to protect it. Another good option is to get a special wheel cover as this gives good protection and adds additional water proofing (the KS18XL is fairly good anyway) but obviously this costs extra.

The hill you mention won't be any problem to the 18XL - I'm roughly the same weight as you and my little 16S would have no problem with it. You want to try and keep your battery in the 40%-80% range for maximum life. That should also easily cover your daily commute. Then, every 10 or so charges, charge it up to 100% and leave it on charge for a good few hours as @mrelwoodsays. The battery doesn't die at the end of all this, it just starts to lose a little capacity.

[Alj]

1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The 18XL is quite a good choice for your commute but just remember it takes time to learn how to ride these things. If you can find someone local just to show you the ropes then that will save a lot of time. Just don't expect to be able to commute 18 miles the day after you receive the wheel - it will feel like skiing for 18 miles while only being able to do snow plough turns. It's also worth investing in some protective gear. I'd get a helmet, wrist guards and knee pads for you and some foam padding for the wheel to protect it. Another good option is to get a special wheel cover as this gives good protection and adds additional water proofing (the KS18XL is fairly good anyway) but obviously this costs extra.

Thanks, got that covered. $250 worth of protective gear minus motorcycle helmet which i already have. The wheel comes with the free cover (from ewheel.com) and i have used yoga mat just in case to come up with some improvised case just in case.  I watched many youtube stuff about self-learning. I'll see how it goes :-)

 

[.....]

Congrats, you won't be disappointed! You may find a motorcycle helmet to be a little heavy over time, so i foresee you getting something lighter. No worries tho, youll be fine. Actually, with a quality wheel, quality gear, a cover and dealer support, the only thing you really need worry about now is... how to ride the damn thing! Keep us updated and be sure to have fun!

[meepmeepmayer]

Don't forget to get a EUC bodyguard to also protect your nice new wheel

[Alj]

On 5/12/2020 at 1:39 AM, mrelwood said:

Bad plan. Your battery will be bust before you reach 1000-3000 miles on your wheel if you don’t balance the battery cells religiously. Balancing only starts to happen when some of the cells reach 100%. Balancing at every tenth charge (the old recommendation) has proven to not be enough.

U stumbled upon this document stating that charging to 80% triples lifetime of cells  https://eunicycles.eu/en/news/wszystko-o-bateriach-li-ion-w-monocyklach-elektrycznych

So i wonder how much balancing is better versus charging to 80%?

And btw when this balancing kicks in? Is it the last minutes of charge or after you done charge and riding your wheel?

From what i see by looking at the picture of balancing battery pack PCB - it just has own charging controller for every section of the elements connected in series meaning balancing automatically starts when charge surpasses 50% going from current to voltage mode. Yes, balancing never completes but it does happen since in voltage mode lower charged elements charge faster. And if lifetime of elements triples this way it may as well totally worth it.

the picture is taken from this thread :

 

 

[mrelwood]

18 minutes ago, Alj said:

U stumbled upon this document stating that charging to 80% triples lifetime of cells  https://eunicycles.eu/en/news/wszystko-o-bateriach-li-ion-w-monocyklach-elektrycznych

So i wonder how much balancing is better versus charging to 80%?

300 full li-ion charge cycles, which is the generally mentioned lifetime until the capacity has lowered to 80%, translate to roughly 20 000 - 30 000 km of riding on a 1600Wh EUC. Tripleing that ups the distance to 60 000 - 90 000 km. Despite this we have seen numerous batteries fail already at around 4 000 km, and a few even before 2 000 km. The most likely (and only) reason for the early death that we've been able to establish has been the lack of balancing.

If you search for just the word "charge" in thread titles, you will already get many results where the battery won't charge to 100%. One of which you linked to. These are all situations where the balancing has gone bad enough that the BMS preliminarily stops the charging because the highest charged cells were going dangerously high in voltage. The only way for this to happen is if there is a cell group with a much lower voltage. If a 1600Wh wheel doesn't charge above about 90%, one cell group is already at 0V, and the battery pack is busted.

So, the answer to "how much balancing is better" or "how much more important" can be seen as 20000/2000, which is ten times more important.

18 minutes ago, Alj said:

balancing automatically starts when charge surpasses 50% going from current to voltage mode.

No and no, unfortunately. Constant voltage mode starts only when the charge voltage reaches the rated maximum of 4.20V per cell, which would settle down to about 90% if disconnected from the charger. And balancing also starts only when a cell group tries to exceed 4.20V. There could of course be slight differences on different manufacturers' BMSs, I have seen exact data only on a GW BMS.