Popular Post travsformation Posted December 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) Hi, I've started going on increasingly long and ambitious rides, through some truly fantastic landscapes, and am also planning on taking advantage of the fact I'm a work-from-home freelancer, and do some extended traveling in my RV (with my wheel, of course), so I think it's time I up my photography game, invest in some decent gear and start preaching the EUC gospel by sharing the amazing places we can tour on our EUCs Sidenote: Sorry for tagging you (and only you), @Marty Backe but you're the first person that came to mind in terms of extensive Insta360 experience & amount of footage produced. Although I'd be very grateful if you could give me your opinion, please don't feel obliged to (If you don't have the time to reply, perhaps you could point me to other users who also use Insta360s and might be able to provide some advice. Thanks!) So, the first piece of gear I'm planning on getting is a DJI Mavic Air. I've done some extensive research and it seems to be the best fit for my particular needs, in terms of size, image quality and overall features. I know it's not at the same level as the Mavic Pro, but it hits the sweet spot for me between portability and overall quality and functions. So my mind is pretty much made up on that one. It's the action camera department where I have doubts. My initial plan was to get a GoPro Hero 7 Black + a gimbal (7 vs 8 because of price) for the overall image quality and excellent stabilization. I'm not overly fond of recording myself, my main stress is on the landscape and where our EUCs can take us, and I know I can get some amazing shots with that combo once I've mastered the gimbal. For group rides it would be particularly awesome, I can already envision some amazing shots, from slow, upward crane movement while chasing other riders, to an array of pans, sweeps, etc., making for very visually appealing footage of group rides. Except for one issue: because of my schedule (working on weekends) and not living near where most group rides take place, most of my riding is done solo ATM, so I can't see a GoPro coming in particularly handy. I could get some cool POV shots and some beautiful footage of the scenery, but those shouldn't be the majority of the content, as having a subject in the image is more visually appealing and gives a better sense of context (and stresses the actual EUC riding). Of course, I could alternate between drone shots and different pans, sweeps & POV shots from the GoPro, but I find it would be a bit limiting for the intended use (especially considering that I can't have the drone tailing behind me in the city). So for the time being, the best option would appear to be the Insta360 One X. For solo rides, it would allow me to get myself in the frame to capture the actual EUC riding experience (and the hypnotic visual appeal of effortlessly carving your way down the road) while keeping the camera far enough from myself so that the surrounding landscape remains the central focus of the video. I also love the invisible floating camera effect, as opposed to the GoPro + (visible) selfie stick combo, which IMHO, directs too much attention to the stick and the rider. I'm also excited about the versatility of capturing in 360 so I can control the camera angle at my leisure in post. My only concern is image quality. I know there'd be no problem with image quality consistency when alternating between Mavic Air and Go Pro Hero 7 Black footage, but I'm concerned this wouldn't be the case with the Insta 360 One X. I've been analyzing tons of different videos, and I get the overall impression that due to the 360 nature of the footage being recorded, quality goes downhill pretty fast when in movement. The quality of video recorded while standing still isn't the same as when walking, and when riding an EUC at 20+ mph, it looks like a lot of detail is lost, so I'm not sure it's the best fit for me (I'm guessing a lot of the loss in detail might have to do with the stabilization). I plan on recording mostly in 1080p, not 4K. Is there a quality difference when recording in 4K vs FHD? Is image quality the same if recorded natively in 1080p vs recording in 4K and downscaling to 1080p? [Edit: after further reading on how the camera works, I now understand that it's 5.7K for the entire 360º sphere, and about 1080p(ish) for flat videos exported]. My main concern is that even if image quality holds up reasonably well for exclusively Insta360 footage, there would be too big an image quality consistency gap to be able to intersperse footage from the DJI Mavic Air. The GoPro Max seems to offer crisper images and more vivid colors, but the stitching isn't as good, nor is the invisible selfie stick, and the workflow seems very time-consuming and much more of a hassle than with the Insta360... Has anyone tried the Insta360 Evo? If so, is their a difference in quality when shooting in 180º mode to produce flat, 2D images, vs. shooting in 360º mode / vs. the Inasta360 One X? Any thoughts or advice? It would be much appreciated! Thanks! Edited December 7, 2019 by travsformation 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 I can offer this important piece of information that touches on the quality of the 360 video ... What you see via YouTube, Facebook, etc. is greatly deteriorated from the original video. All of the video hosting services compress the hell out of our videos and turn what looks fantastic on our computers to blurry bits when viewed on YouTube. If there is very little movement in the frame, than the details are maintained. But of course EUC riding entails lots of movement. For example, take a look at one of my latest videos: At the beginning of this video I think you'll agree that the details are sharp, mostly. But one we start riding it goes downhill. Yet if you were to see the raw video before being sent to YouTube, the details are maintained even in the moving shots. A 4K non-360 camera certainly gives better quality video, even after YouTube compression, but it still suffers. So the bottom line is that YouTube (and Facebook is much worse) is your limiting factor for quality, not the camera. For best results you have to record at the highest bitrate, try to minimize camera movement, and spend time with quality video processing software that can generate the highest quality output. I still prefer the 360 footage for the best "you are there" view. Download the above video from here and watch it. You'll see how good it looks before YouTube degrades it: Google Drive Download Link 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 (edited) Thanks, Marty! Very helpful insight on the Youtube vs.quality paradox! And thanks for taking the time to share the original! How cool to get to watch the lossless version, and at that, no other than the ride with Tim El Loco Rodriguez! Wow, the quality difference is abysmal! I knew YouTube did a fair bit of compressing, but the difference is ridiculous... How bizarre to realize I've just seen actual Insta360 footage for the very first time. Ever. And It must be odd for you too to devote so much time to recording & editing, knowing that no one will actually get to see the real deal. Too bad they have no real competition, or there aren't any platforms that offer better quality output without capping your bandwidth and requiring a premium plan (If you don't hear from me in a couple of days, I went on too deep a dive and got lost in the bowels of the Internet) OK, so I think I'm pretty much sold on the Insta360 One X! I think I might even postpone getting the drone, and will get an extended Insta360 selfie stick to play around with drone-like shots. It's probably wiser to take the time to master the Insta360 before I buy another toy, as opposed to overwhelming myself trying to learn two new things at once... Speaking of which, what length selfie stick do you use? And for video recording, do you go with the standard color profile, or the flat one and color correct later in post? The former question is just to know which one to order, and the latter to have a general idea of how much color-correction work to expect to get the same results And don't worry, I won't be overwhelming you with questions once I get the camera; there are tons of (highly compressed) video tutorials on Youtube to answer all of my doubts On 12/7/2019 at 8:12 PM, Marty Backe said: For best results you have to record at the highest bitrate, try to minimize camera movement, and spend time with quality video processing software that can generate the highest quality output. I still prefer the 360 footage for the best "you are there" view. I'll confess I'm a bit of a quality junkie when it comes to multimedia. 95% of my music collection is in FLAC, and I remain a harsh critic of the use of mp3. That technology was first developed in the 80s, adapted and refined in the early 90s for music compression, released to the public in '94 and went mainstream with Napster, back in '99! Yet sites such as Amazon still sell music in mp3, nearing 2020!!! Even in the mid 2000's, back in the days of mp3 players, I replaced my mp3 player's firmware with the open-source Rockbox, which supported AC3, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, ALAC, etc. (if that's of any indication of my quality-centric form of OCD...) So back to the subject at hand, I downloaded your ride with Tim from Youtube, and it's 4,262 Kbps vs. the 22 Mbps for the original!!! What's got me puzzled is that at 1080p and 23.976 fps, Youtube recommend uploading at 8 Mbps, but have downgraded your bitrate to lower than what they recommend for 720p (Source: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/1722171?hl=en) I was curious, as I thought the lower bitrate might be connected to the length of the video, so I downloaded a copy of Mike Sacristan's video MSX and Tesla Adventures - Flottsbro climbing, which is under 9'. The video is 1080p @ 60fps, and the bitrate YouTube yielded is 5,934 Kbps. So it looks like some serious compression is going on no matter what... But still, with a little tweaking, you might be able to get up to 5,934 Kbps. In his case, that might not be an advantage as that bitrate is spread out over double the amount of frames, but in your case, you might be able to use that to your advantage and fool Youtube into getting higher bitrates. If you export your videos as 60 fps you'll gain no additional smoothness, as the extra fps would essentially just be duplicated, but using h264 that shouldn't produce a significantly higher file size and Youtube might grant you a higher bitrate based on the higher fps of the input file. And 5,934 Kbps isn't negligible: it's a 40% increase vs. 4,262 Kbps! Or perhaps if you upscale your videos to 1440p at 60 fps, you might be able to get an even higher bitrate. This is just theoretical, but I think it might be worth playing around with to see if better overall quality can be achieved by fooling Youtube into getting higher bitrates. I'll take a look and see if there's an ideal combination of resolutions fps and bitrate that'll make Youtube compress your videos less and afford you better overall bitrate/image quality. It's the least I can do to return the favor of helping me make up my mind about the Insta360! Edited December 9, 2019 by travsformation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 BTW @Marty Backe, which invisible selfie stick do you use? The standard one, the extended one or the bushman monopod v2? Thanks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 On 12/13/2019 at 10:35 AM, travsformation said: BTW @Marty Backe, which invisible selfie stick do you use? The standard one, the extended one or the bushman monopod v2? Thanks! Sorry, I missed this post. In case you're still interested, I use the 9-foot version. There's a link in my equipment page: https://www.electricunicycleworld.com/p/my-equipment.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Sorry, I missed this post. In case you're still interested, I use the 9-foot version. There's a link in my equipment page: https://www.electricunicycleworld.com/p/my-equipment.html No worries, I bought one already, but thanks! Didn't go for the original Insta360 one but a different brand: it's the exact same selfie stick but was 1/2 the price. I took it out for a test the other day and the 1st couple of feet (near my hand) were visible. I removed the foam at the end of the stick, so I'm guessing it has to do with the screw on the venture case not being tight enough and the camera ending up at a bit of an angle. I'll try again soon, but screwing the camera straight onto the selfie stick, without the venture case, which is complete garbage anyway, as it creates so many reflections it makes a lot of the footage unusable... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 3 hours ago, travsformation said: No worries, I bought one already, but thanks! Didn't go for the original Insta360 one but a different brand: it's the exact same selfie stick but was 1/2 the price. I took it out for a test the other day and the 1st couple of feet (near my hand) were visible. I removed the foam at the end of the stick, so I'm guessing it has to do with the screw on the venture case not being tight enough and the camera ending up at a bit of an angle. I'll try again soon, but screwing the camera straight onto the selfie stick, without the venture case, which is complete garbage anyway, as it creates so many reflections it makes a lot of the footage unusable... I also didn't buy the Insta version. Mine is probably what yours is. Too late, but you don't have to remove the foam piece. It serves an important function of keeping the stick collapsed when transporting it. In use, all you have to do is fully extend the stick and then slide the foam piece down until it stops (2 links I think). It then becomes invisible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) On 1/19/2020 at 4:31 PM, travsformation said: No worries, I bought one already, but thanks! Didn't go for the original Insta360 one but a different brand: it's the exact same selfie stick but was 1/2 the price. I took it out for a test the other day and the 1st couple of feet (near my hand) were visible. I removed the foam at the end of the stick, so I'm guessing it has to do with the screw on the venture case not being tight enough and the camera ending up at a bit of an angle. I'll try again soon, but screwing the camera straight onto the selfie stick, without the venture case, which is complete garbage anyway, as it creates so many reflections it makes a lot of the footage unusable... Having any good luck out of your 360x? I have a hero3 that is a little dated. I guess my biggest concern is : how easily do you scratch the lens when you take a spill, and are they replaceable? A slow speed $400+ crash doesn't sound fun at all. I am looking heavily at the 360 One R. Its bulkier, but I think the lens protector option may be nice. It seems the lenses are replaceable as just a lens (part availability dependent). Very cool stuff for sure. Im looking for something to use on a paramotor as well. Ive had too many requests for video of my first flight attempts. Edited February 24, 2020 by ShanesPlanet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 5:06 AM, ShanesPlanet said: Having any good luck out of your 360x? I have a hero3 that is a little dated. I guess my biggest concern is : how easily do you scratch the lens when you take a spill, and are they replaceable? A slow speed $400+ crash doesn't sound fun at all. I am looking heavily at the 360 One R. Its bulkier, but I think the lens protector option may be nice. It seems the lenses are replaceable as just a lens (part availability dependent). Very cool stuff for sure. Im looking for something to use on a paramotor as well. Ive had too many requests for video of my first flight attempts. I somehow failed to see your reply, sorry! I only used the Insta for a couple of rides before my "accident", so I still have much playing around to do. But I can say already that it's delicate as hell...lenses are replaceable but about $100 I think, and it can take a good 3 weeks to get your camera back from what I hear... Insta 360 One R is probably a better bet in that regard. I think it's the one @ZenRyder got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Thanks for the response. I had an entire Insta360r kit on order, but the virus delayed it until it got cancelled. I guess they arent being let into wuhan much yet. I figured I'd give the GoPro Max a shot. A little leery about the hoops I'll have to go thru as a windows user, but the 30day return makes it a bit easier pill. Ive beat the crap outta my still working hero3, so MAYBE the max isnt fragile like eggs. I'll find out but im not holding my breathe. I'd imagine when the NEXT gen of 8k 360 video cams arrives, my computer will simply implode then catch fire. I wonder if insta is pretty much to china and back for parts/service atm? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) It's odd it got delayed, a lot of places usually have plenty of stock. Maybe being that it's a newer product with high sales... Spain is on complete lockdown, we're not even allowed to leave the house, but I ordered a drone two days ago and it just arrived today I see you're already aware of the tedious workflow involved with the GoPro max. Be gentle with it and try not to damage it in case you can't live with the workflow...Then again, if it's what you're used to. 360 cameras really do open up a whole new world of possibilities! Whatever one you get, I think you're going to thoroughly enjoy playing around with it! Edited March 15, 2020 by travsformation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, travsformation said: Spain is on complete lockdown, we're not even allowed to leave the house, but I ordered a drone two days ago and it just arrived today Bummer! So the FedEx/UPS driver can still deliver to your home? Which brand/model did you purchase? Edited March 15, 2020 by Rehab1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 6 hours ago, travsformation said: It's odd it got delayed, a lot of places usually have plenty of stock. Maybe being that it's a newer product with high sales... Spain is on complete lockdown, we're not even allowed to leave the house, but I ordered a drone two days ago and it just arrived today I see you're already aware of the tedious workflow involved with the GoPro max. Be gentle with it and try not to damage it in case you can't live with the workflow...Then again, if it's what you're used to. 360 cameras really do open up a whole new world of possibilities! Whatever one you get, I think you're going to thoroughly enjoy playing around with it! All my cameras have required me to remove the sd card, copy its contents to my computer via card dock. Import footage into pwer director, watch my computer beg, plea, cry and smoke. Edit by guessing as previews are always about 2 frames per second, wait 2hrs for export, wait till 2am to upload to the net, make sure its done uploading by 8 am. I would call my method the 'anti workflow'. From what I gather, gopro is gna make me run the video thru another program first, THEN the rest of the nightmare can continue. Im also noting that my dual vid cards are on the list of 4k export rather than the 8k capable. So, im already losing a LOT of definition from the 360, before its even recoded and stitched to a language any NORMAL program can comprehend. I will definitely handle it with gloves and catch 5 minutes of bs video walking around in my yard. THEN i get to see how may hours that 5 minutes will take. I'd imagine i will reach a conclusion within 24 hours. I ordered the insta360 kit from their store direct. Seems most retail outlets are out of stock. After waiting a while, they informed me that wuhan is a ghost town and they wont be back to work to ship anything for a while. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 16, 2020 Author Share Posted March 16, 2020 22 hours ago, Rehab1 said: Bummer! So the FedEx/UPS driver can still deliver to your home? Which brand/model did you purchase? Yepp. In an ideal world, delivery folks would be seen as heroes taking risks for the benefit of public safety, but reality is quite different. I feel bad for them... Ordered a DJI Mavic Air. I was planning on waiting 'til April, for the possible Mavic 2 (better tracking, possible remote, like with the Skydio, etc.), or for the price of the current version to drop when the new one was released, but decided To hell with it! and bought it on an impulse. Got a case of instant Karma for buying impulsively, as now I can't even leave the house to try it out... Well, I'll have plenty of time to familiarize myself with it and watch every tutorial on Youtube between now and whenever they lift they lockdown..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 16, 2020 Author Share Posted March 16, 2020 21 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: All my cameras have required me to remove the sd card, copy its contents to my computer via card dock. Import footage into pwer director, watch my computer beg, plea, cry and smoke. Edit by guessing as previews are always about 2 frames per second, wait 2hrs for export, wait till 2am to upload to the net, make sure its done uploading by 8 am. I would call my method the 'anti workflow'. From what I gather, gopro is gna make me run the video thru another program first, THEN the rest of the nightmare can continue. Im also noting that my dual vid cards are on the list of 4k export rather than the 8k capable. So, im already losing a LOT of definition from the 360, before its even recoded and stitched to a language any NORMAL program can comprehend. I will definitely handle it with gloves and catch 5 minutes of bs video walking around in my yard. THEN i get to see how may hours that 5 minutes will take. I'd imagine i will reach a conclusion within 24 hours. I ordered the insta360 kit from their store direct. Seems most retail outlets are out of stock. After waiting a while, they informed me that wuhan is a ghost town and they wont be back to work to ship anything for a while. For some reason I had it stuck in my mind that the GoPro workflow process was much more tedious...but it appears to be very similar to the Insta360. Maybe it's some review i saw somewhere of someone complaining it could only be done via PC (I can't see myself working on a mobile device so I don't see much of a loss there). Yeah, it's going to be adding an extra step: Import to GoPro's software, reframe by creating keyframes and camera movements (which can be as fast and effortless if you just stick to one view, or quite the task if you want something more sophisticated and less static), export it (a per-file rendering process), then importing the new normal video files to your video editor of choice and following your usual editing process. I find that for the type of videos I like to make, I just have to be patient and accept it isn't going to be a one-day endeavor, but something I devote a little time to whenever I get the chance, since reframing 1h of footage, when you want different shots, takes, etc., can be quite a pretty time-consuming task. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, travsformation said: Well, I'll have plenty of time to familiarize myself with it and watch every tutorial on Youtube between now and whenever they lift they lockdown..... Fly it inside your house. Your drone does not require a GPS signal to experiment indoors. I suppose you could hand launch it from your window and stay inside while flying. Just don’t crash. Edited March 16, 2020 by Rehab1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 17, 2020 Author Share Posted March 17, 2020 22 hours ago, Rehab1 said: Fly it inside your house. Your drone does not require a GPS signal to experiment indoors. I suppose you could hand launch it from your window and stay inside while flying. Just don’t crash. I'm getting a "no GPS signal, unable to take off" message. It might be because the app automatically sets "beginner mode" at first and thus won't take off without signal, as it need it for the "return home" function. I'll see if I can switch to another mode. I'd happily go up on the roof of the building and try it there, but drone laws here are very strict. I so envy folks I see playing around with the Skydio2 (Flyboy and Zenleetech, I think), having it tag behind them while riding through the city. That's completely forbidden here... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 hour ago, travsformation said: I'm getting a "no GPS signal, unable to take off" message. It might be because the app automatically sets "beginner mode" at first and thus won't take off without signal, as it need it for the "return home" function. I'll see if I can switch to another mode. Yes if your not in an outdoor setting obtaining a signal is hopeless. I’m not familiar with the Mavic Air but you should be able to fly it indoors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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