Charging/battery health questions

[AtlasP]

Smoother:

1. I've been satisfied by the explanations and sources provided earlier here (and some more digging elsewhere) that leaving my wheel sit around 40-50% overnight/for longer periods and waiting to charge in the mornings/closer to riding can make a considerable, measurable difference in battery longevity over leaving it sit at 80% overnight let alone 90-100% (potentially reducing a degradation of as much as 5-10+% at 80% each year down to just a few percent).
2. As for "What have I gained?" the answer is range when you need it. There is a difference between most people's average daily usage (like during the week) and occasions when they go for longer rides (like a particular long journey or cruising a lot on the weekend). So by babying my battery on the average day (and in which state it can still meet my day-to-day needs easily), then I still have the option to charge all the way up to 90 or 100% for those times I'm going to go on longer rides--and those rides can last that much longer as a result. You're essentially trading some of the range/capability on your average days (where it would go unused anyway) for increased range/capability on your longer ride days--this sounds like a great trade to me.
3. Additionally, as the battery does eventually wear and/or one's usage patterns happen to include longer and longer rides as a regular occurrence, such that 80% is no longer sufficient on a daily basis, one has the option of changing one's charging patterns to regularly charge to 90% instead (or even 100% instead) and buy more months or years out of a wheel which might have otherwise become unusable at that point. (This is a similar perspective as to how I handle PC overclocking. Buy new hardware and don't overclock the first couple years [extra perf not needed at that point, so going for cooler temps and quieter operation and longer lifespan], then after a few years as it starts to hit limitations/show its age I push an overclock--either I buy some more life/another couple years out of it, or it accelerates its demise at a time when the replacement was nearing necessity anyway.)

Edited June 3, 2019 by AtlasP

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

Smoother:

1. I've been satisfied by the sources provided here (and some more digging elsewhere) that leaving my wheel sit around 40-50% overnight/for longer periods and waiting to charge in the mornings/closer to riding can make a considerable, measurable difference (potentially reducing a degradation of as much as 5-10% each year down to just a few percent).
2. As for "What have I gained?" the answer is range when you need it. There is a difference between most people's average daily usage (like during the week) and occasions when they go for longer rides (like a particular long journey or cruising a lot on the weekend). So by babying my battery on the average day (and in which state it can still meet my day-to-day needs easily), then I still have the option to charge all the way up to 100% for a day I'm going to go on longer rides--and those rides can last that much longer as a result. You're essentially trading some of the range/capability on your average days for increased range/capability on your long days.

Yes, that all sound reasonable, and more or less what I practice (not 40 -50%, higher).  But remember, those weren't my words, that was a quote, which I found interesting at the time because I had a wheel with a tiny battery and I was wrestling with the 80% 100% issue myself.   I think other's may have found it thought provoking, then, and now as I quote it. But remember i ended with this:

"(note, I rarely charge to 100%, I'm just not that anal about 80% or (insert your preferred percentage here),  Life's too short) "

Since my tiny battery wheel broke an axle after 1100km/13 months the state of the battery going forwards became rather academic, as I believe it does for most wheels as, as I stated, most people move on to a newer wheel before battery performance starts to be an issue.  At least that's my take after reading this forum for over 2.5 years.

However, I'm happy you found the data that works for you, it is, after all about freedom to decide for one's self, from a range of facts and or opinions.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Smoother

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

In other words, if one self imposes an 80% charge max, then for all intents and purposes you are already operating at 80% capacity.

It seems we are writing passed each other  I was addressing a resting charge, not the final charge right before to leave riding.

[Smoother]

3 minutes ago, Mono said:

It seems we are writing passed each other  I was addressing a resting charge, not the final charge right before to leave riding.

Hey, its happened before and it will happen again.  We can but hope to improve our communication skills, as you yourself, in the past, (clears throat) have taught me.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Smoother

[hyiu00]

10 hours ago, Mono said:

Claiming a "dual motor" looks like a publicity stunt to me. If true, one either carries lots of unnecessary weight, or it means faceplanting in any critical high-demand situation when only one of the motors failing. Like this, the motor-related safety is halved, as any of the two motors failing leads already to an accident.

I would tend to think the difference between continuous versus peak output power, and this goes for all the components including the battery, the BMS, and the motor.  As long as any one side of this redundancy can deliver the peak power in a short time that is long enough to tilt the wheel and stop the rider, I will consider it to be safe enough.  The peak power is normally related to temperature rise and it can be very high even for a small motor. 

The difference between the motor and the battery is that motor either works or fail completely, whereas battery degrade slowly.  As long as the battery degrade slowly, this redundancy scheme should work since the electronics can detect the output current differential.  Nonetheless, what I say in here is only my guess work.  IPS advertised this redundancy but what they really need to do is to show how this redundancy actually works under different failure modes.  Otherwise it will not be useful to anyone until there is an accident.

I like the way IPS is going as they are trying to make wheels lighter and safer instead of more mileage and higher speed.  Unfortunately, as of now, the bigger and more powerful ones are selling much better.  I wish once the legal issues are worked out, IPS will gain back the shares.

Edited June 3, 2019 by hyiu00

[Mono]

9 hours ago, hyiu00 said:

I like the way IPS is going as they are trying to make wheels lighter and safer instead of more mileage and higher speed.  Unfortunately, as of now, the bigger and more powerful ones are selling much better.  I wish once the legal issues are worked out, IPS will gain back the shares.

I applaud and second to make wheels lighter and safer! I am pretty sure though that redundancy is not the way to do that. That means to me, this is either a publicity stunt or the IPS engineers don't understand well what they do, or they are constrained by sales people. The best of all options is still that they are just lying about the redundancy.

[hyiu00]

Yes, this is not a true redundancy design, but at least it is a step forward towards a more safe design.

But what I really want to know is for other wheels, what happen during the transition from an old battery to a non-useable battery?  Do most of you (1) just sell it to the second hand market to avoid this transition, or (2) just replace the battery every two or so years to avoid this situation, or (3) actually try to run it until something happens?  What I am interested to know is for case 3, does it actually cause face plant or there is some measurable sign that can tell you the battery is not useable?

[Mono]

2 hours ago, hyiu00 said:

But what I really want to know is for other wheels, what happen during the transition from an old battery to a non-useable battery?

In my limited experience so far the battery was never the reason why the wheel became unusable. In fact, the only components I currently use from my old broken wheel are the battery and the trolley handle. I expect batteries to degrade gradually and gracefully rather than suddenly. I suspect that chances are low that a battery will suddenly fail while I am riding.