Aric Lasry Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Hi, I am looking into buying either the Dualtron Ultra OR the Dualtron 3. I am trying to grasp the differences. I can read online that the Dualtron Ultra has an LG battery, which for me goes with quality, but I can't find anything about the battery for the Dualtron 3. Can anyone help me shed the light on Dualtron 3 vs Dualtron Thunder? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwallersv Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 The III an Thunder have a 16S (67.2V full charge) pack made of Samsung INR18650-30Q cells. These are some of the best available. I'd highly recommend getting a Charge Doctor to manage charging, cutoff at about 80% charge (64.8V under charge). This reduces usable range on each charge by about 28% (assuming "empty" is 30%, then recharged), but you just about double the charge cycle life of the batteries. Drop the charge limit to 70% peak, and you can get close to 3x the charge cycles. Unless you need the full power of a 100%, 67.2V charge and/or the maximum range in a single riding session, there's no reason to stress the batteries with a full charge. Especially if you have a Dualtron, there's so much power headroom that you can easily routinely follow a good battery maintenance strategy. I probably run single motor 70% of my riding... I switch on the front motor only when needed to accelerate quicker, get up a steep hill, maintain a fast speed (35-40) when the road inclines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTFans Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Dualtron 3 can't be using 30Q because it's configuration is 16s 8p. In order to achieve 1658WH it has to be Samsung 35E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwallersv Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Sounds right. They advertised somewhere on some site (I can't remember where, after who know's how many sites I've visited researching this beast) that they were using Samsung cells, and not the LG cells that are in the II and Ultra, but I'm not 100% certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrie Lim Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 They are using LG Mj1 cells. Dualtrons have always been using MJ1 cells since dualtron 2 limited. 60V system. 16S8P giving you 67.2V full charge and 28p The way they calculated is by using the nominal charge instead of full charge. Nominal charge for cells can be 3.6/3.7 and they used 3.7V 16x3.7V=59.2V(60v system) [16x4.2v(full charge)=67.2V full charge for 60V system] 59.2V x 28ah = 1657.6wh ~1658wh There. Mystery solved. Note: LG MJ1 cells are 3500mah and 10a discharge cells. Dualtron 3 uses dual 27a controller, total 54a. At 28ah,, the D3 pack is in a 16S8P config, and 8P gives you 8x10a=80a of discharge for a 54a system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrie Lim Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 On 11/7/2018 at 9:17 AM, Aric Lasry said: Hi, I am looking into buying either the Dualtron Ultra OR the Dualtron 3. I am trying to grasp the differences. I can read online that the Dualtron Ultra has an LG battery, which for me goes with quality, but I can't find anything about the battery for the Dualtron 3. Can anyone help me shed the light on Dualtron 3 vs Dualtron Thunder? Thanks. The difference between d3 and thunder is the same as the difference between d2 limited and ultra. These are just the next iterations of each product. D2/d3: dual 27a controllers and 28ah batt pack Ultra/Thunder: dual 40a controllers and 35ah batt. Basically they are just different tiers of escooters. The reason why ultra/thunder goes faster is because it’s controllers are at higher amps. And because it uses a 35ah pack, it would mean its batt pack is in a 10p config for LG mj1 cells. At 10a per cell, u get 100a total discharge for a combine 80a worth of controller in the thunder/ultra. Hence it has more power to go faster, but it also increases its weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrie Lim Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 As you guys play more with dualtrons, you will realise it doesn’t matter what model u are riding. Next time what u all can do is mod the battery, change the controller, and change the motors. I was running a 28S10P system using LG Hg2 cells(3000mah 20a), dual 80a controllers and dual 3600w motors for my ultra. That is what we call a beast in Singapore. A true 100V(117.6V) scooter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwallersv Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 On 12/4/2018 at 5:39 PM, Garrie Lim said: As you guys play more with dualtrons, you will realise it doesn’t matter what model u are riding. Next time what u all can do is mod the battery, change the controller, and change the motors. I was running a 28S10P system using LG Hg2 cells(3000mah 20a), dual 80a controllers and dual 3600w motors for my ultra. That is what we call a beast in Singapore. A true 100V(117.6V) scooter. Dude, I almost sh*t my pants going over 50 on my Thunder. Had to try it once, but it's really quite dangerous, IMO A simple, but accurate way to look at this: Motors are electromagnets. The strength of the magnetic force of the magnetic field driving the motor is (first order) proportional to the current running through it. Want to go faster? Steeper hills? Fatter butt? You need more force, therefore current, to drive (push) those higher loads. The hardware (controller and motor) have to be designed for those larger currents too. There are a variety of considerations, but one of the biggest is wire gauge -- a motor designed for 40A max will have windings and other wiring, including the feed wires, that are too thin to carry high currents without significant resistive losses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themyst Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 On 12/4/2018 at 8:39 PM, Garrie Lim said: As you guys play more with dualtrons, you will realise it doesn’t matter what model u are riding. Next time what u all can do is mod the battery, change the controller, and change the motors. I was running a 28S10P system using LG Hg2 cells(3000mah 20a), dual 80a controllers and dual 3600w motors for my ultra. That is what we call a beast in Singapore. A true 100V(117.6V) scooter. Hi, I was wondering if it is possible to run a DT2/3 controller on a Spider in your experience? Looking at the wiring diagrams of both the Spider and DT2/3 they look identical, so in theory it should work assuming the controller fits inside the deck, and I get the compact controller compatible with the latest EYE LCD. The Spider is rated for 44A continuous vs 54A on the DT2/3, I understand since the Spider battery is a MJ1 16S5P it wouldn’t be able to attain 54A, but wouldn’t it be easy enough to change P9=2 to limit peak power, or would the BMS be able to cap it without any user intervention? I believe the motors on the Spider are identical to those on the DT2 so that shouldn’t be a problem (I understand I will likely have worse range assuming my idea works). I live in the USA, so tipping the scales a little over 20kg isn’t a problem. I only ask because I have a failed Spider controller (appears to be a widespread problem) and would like to use a controller that is known to be reliable instead of putting another Spider controller in and potentially have the same problem. I created an account just to ask you this as I can’t get a clear answer anywhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourtoys7 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Im considering Dualtron III (newer technology over ultra), I did have Duatron II for a short time, incredible machine while it worked. it is one of the best available for sure. Daultron III or spider... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwallersv Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Depends on what you want to use it for. Commuting? Spider's probably a better choice because of the weight (or lack thereof). Mostly fun/hobby riding, I'd go for the III ( really, I'd push the Thunder if you're willing to make the spend... I more than love mine :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siggy Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 2/14/2019 at 3:57 AM, themyst said: Hi, I was wondering if it is possible to run a DT2/3 controller on a Spider in your experience? Looking at the wiring diagrams of both the Spider and DT2/3 they look identical, so in theory it should work assuming the controller fits inside the deck, and I get the compact controller compatible with the latest EYE LCD. The Spider is rated for 44A continuous vs 54A on the DT2/3, I understand since the Spider battery is a MJ1 16S5P it wouldn’t be able to attain 54A, but wouldn’t it be easy enough to change P9=2 to limit peak power, or would the BMS be able to cap it without any user intervention? I believe the motors on the Spider are identical to those on the DT2 so that shouldn’t be a problem (I understand I will likely have worse range assuming my idea works). I live in the USA, so tipping the scales a little over 20kg isn’t a problem. I only ask because I have a failed Spider controller (appears to be a widespread problem) and would like to use a controller that is known to be reliable instead of putting another Spider controller in and potentially have the same problem. I created an account just to ask you this as I can’t get a clear answer anywhere else. really good question! have heard a lot about spider controller issues too. I would recommend speaking to “KWK store” on ali express - Freda and Kylin have a wealth of knowledge about minimotors Definitely subbed to hear response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenbadger Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 The D3 & Thunder use the new "honeycomb" battery configuration safety feature ...how good or bad or convenient that is long-term l don't know ...safer anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTFans Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Battery built in those cells holder is probably the safest way of putting them together. They are further encase in a metal casing for further protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenbadger Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Yes, l remember now, the latest production runs of the Ultra changed over from plastic cases to the same steel boxes as the D 3 & Thunder ...l cannot find the final specs for the X anywhere yet, it's too soon Someone on here bought the X for US$6,000 direct from minimotors, korea ...if your spending US dollars you can do that ...not other currencies, exchange rate, oww ...will ask my agent what the deal will be here in NZ, no other cheaper options are available, we have 15% Import GST, ggrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themyst Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 On 2/19/2019 at 11:05 AM, Siggy said: really good question! have heard a lot about spider controller issues too. I would recommend speaking to “KWK store” on ali express - Freda and Kylin have a wealth of knowledge about minimotors Definitely subbed to hear response DT3 controller works, increases torque/acceleration, no change to top speed, but will lower your overall range. I mitigated this by adding a second battery in parallel, 35Ah Spider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenbadger Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 On 2/14/2019 at 4:57 PM, themyst said: Hi, I was wondering if it is possible to run a DT2/3 controller on a Spider in your experience? Looking at the wiring diagrams of both the Spider and DT2/3 they look identical, so in theory it should work assuming the controller fits inside the deck, and I get the compact controller compatible with the latest EYE LCD. The Spider is rated for 44A continuous vs 54A on the DT2/3, I understand since the Spider battery is a MJ1 16S5P it wouldn’t be able to attain 54A, but wouldn’t it be easy enough to change P9=2 to limit peak power, or would the BMS be able to cap it without any user intervention? I believe the motors on the Spider are identical to those on the DT2 so that shouldn’t be a problem (I understand I will likely have worse range assuming my idea works). I live in the USA, so tipping the scales a little over 20kg isn’t a problem. I only ask because I have a failed Spider controller (appears to be a widespread problem) and would like to use a controller that is known to be reliable instead of putting another Spider controller in and potentially have the same problem. I created an account just to ask you this as I can’t get a clear answer anywhere else. Hi, l'd like to point out that the Dualtron SPIDER is advertised on ewheels.com with 2x 650 Watt motors & e-scooter motors are NOT ventilated ...last year 2 RAPTOR's got their stolid back tyres melted in Singapore?Philippines? by 2x 800 Watt motors X 25 Amp controllers probably mitigated by hammering the back brake-drum ...so the next production runs of RAPTORS had 22 Watt controllers installed. ZERO 9 (TW Dart) ...48 Volt ...2018 500W motor ...2019 600W motor both handle their 25A controller, haven't heard any complaints so far. ...don't know what 60 Volt ...2x 27A controllers would do to 2x 650W motors ...would the motor wiring be heavy enough gauge to carry the load ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenbadger Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 11 hours ago, themyst said: DT3 controller works, increases torque/acceleration, no change to top speed, but will lower your overall range. I mitigated this by adding a second battery in parallel, 35Ah Spider That's called a "hotrod" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenbadger Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 hi, can't seem to load a post anywhere else, so l will dump it here, like a big wet steaming pile of shit l keep reading about people removing, then mutilating & destroying their Thunder & D3 (& TNE) TUBELESS tyre rims by prying off their punctured tubeless tyres, then having to buy new rims fitted with brand-new tyres to get operational again ...can't imagine how they are fixing those punctures, bicycle patches maybe ...BUT surely it is much simpler to carry a US$2 or 3 dollar aliexpress tubeless puncture repair kit, just PLUG the puncture & pump up the tyre again at the nearest gas station. Now a question for the experts, since minimotors doesn't explain it anywhere, including in my D3 users manual ...what on earth IS the controller setting Battery Save Mode P 9, 1:max save, 2:mid save, 3:no save ...exactly what the hell is it, that l'm saving ?? Am l reducing the charge put into the lithium ion battery down to 90% / 80% OR perhaps it is enabling me to stash some battery capacity in my sock drawer. I'm not a mindreader l'm going to need a hint at least ...what's the big secret ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Nesbitt Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Hi I'm wondering if anyone can help I just brought a thunder and stil have my old ultra and want to stack the batt on top of the deck using old modified housing for mech protection can I hard solder wire as apose using that 4pin plug and if someone has done this could you please explain in detail what and why you did what you did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themyst Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 12:11 AM, Terry Nesbitt said: Hi I'm wondering if anyone can help I just brought a thunder and stil have my old ultra and want to stack the batt on top of the deck using old modified housing for mech protection can I hard solder wire as apose using that 4pin plug and if someone has done this could you please explain in detail what and why you did what you did Two questions: Are you looking to swap batteries (e.g. drain one, switch to the other)? If so, you will need to convert the connectors on the controler side to something that is swappable (e.g. EC5/XT60) alongside the battery connectors on the stock batteries. The bullet connectors are nice, however they aren't conducive to hot swapping since each motor has their own exclusive power lines. The trick is to cut the bullet connectors off, swap them to something more universal, splice the power lines from both front and rear motor into a single connector. The rest is pretty straightforward. Are you looking to run the batteries in parallel? If so, you would simply do as stated above and run a Y cable between the controller and batteries so both are draining concurrently. The good points of running parallel are your batteries won't be running as hot since the amperage draw is essentially halved, which will also, in turn, increase your total range (compared to running two separate packs) and sustainable top speed. The cons are you will need to be extra vigilant with such a setup (e.g. charge the two batteries separately, NEVER connect them when the resting voltage of the two packs is over 1V). I suppose you COULD simply charge while the two packs are connected through the scooter, however if you have a failing/defective charger you will have no overcharge protection on the external pack which WILL cause a real nasty fire given how much energy is in 70Ah @ 16S. ----- If all of this sounds foreign to you, simply wire up the Ultra battery to a GX16-4Pin male (+1 +2 -3 -4) and flip the switch to swap between batteries. You will need to solder up a GX16-3Pin (+1 -3) to the input lines (charger lines) to charge the pack externally, but its a 30 minute job to install as opposed to perhaps a few hours and knowledge. There is one HUGE con of going this route, your power will be limited to around 670W max which is a hardware limitation; the GX16-4Pin is only capable of a maximum of 5A per pair of pins (10A theoretical sustained max). If any of this sounds foreign, consult or find a shop that may be able to do this for you. Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic stewart Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 Hi there I have a DT3 had it since Feb 2020, I’m hoping you guys can help. I use my scooter practically most days distances can vary so I need my scooter to be continually charged. I’m noticing if I’m lucky it’s a hit and miss when plugging in the charger and it charges when the light goes red. I’ve had times when the battery on display is 2 bars and battery voltage is at 48% and the light is still green. Is the charger faulty or battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan 00 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 On 12/5/2018 at 1:39 AM, Garrie Lim said: As you guys play more with dualtrons, you will realise it doesn’t matter what model u are riding. Next time what u all can do is mod the battery, change the controller, and change the motors. I was running a 28S10P system using LG Hg2 cells(3000mah 20a), dual 80a controllers and dual 3600w motors for my ultra. That is what we call a beast in Singapore. A true 100V(117.6V) scooter. Hi i just bought an dualtron 3 and wondered how I can make it faster. I don’t know anything about e scooters so apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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