Knee pain

[Knight Rider]

Do any of you guys get knee pain when or after riding/ next day? and if so how do you manage it?

[alcatraz]

I don't know if it's relevant but in cycling I remember getting knee tendon inflamation. The doctors with xrays couldn't figure it out but one youtube video was able to fix it. I had to do certain stretches for about a week and then I never had that pain ever again. That was nearly 20y ago. It used to prevent me from riding and it started hurting even when walking.

[Aztek]

14 hours ago, Knight Rider said:

Do any of you guys get knee pain when or after riding/ next day? and if so how do you manage it?

Yes. Orthopedic knee stabilising braces during riding.

[Asphalt]

A few things you can try to mitigate knee pain:

• Adjust the dihedral angle of the pedals to be flatter:
  Many riders set these at a sharper angle to feel more "locked in", but it also forces the foot and ankle into an over-pronated position, which can cause knee issues.
• Change your footwear:
  Shoes with a large heel-to-toe drop force your foot to be angled downwards in the neutral position. This makes acceleration more difficult and adds stress on your knees. Some riders try to compensate by adjusting the pedal angle offset.
• Ride a lighter wheel:
  Heavy wheels put more stress on your joints and ligaments.
• Nutritional Supplements:
  Glucosamine chondroitin MSM, turmeric, collagen, fish oil
• Healthier knees:
  Improve your knee strength, endurance, and mobility with resistance exercises, walking, and stretching.
  https://www.youtube.com/c/thekneesovertoesguy

I had a pretty messed up knee after my wheel spun out while I was standing with one leg in.
It took me about a year of doing the above to be able to ride again without pain.

Edited August 15 by Asphalt
pronated vs supinated correction

[Bigkidneys]

28 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

A few things you can try to mitigate knee pain:

• Adjust the dihedral angle of the pedals to be flatter:
  Many riders set these at a sharper angle to feel more "locked in", but it also forces the foot and ankle into an over-supinated position, which can cause knee issues.
• Change your footwear:
  Shoes with a large heel-to-toe drop force your foot to be angled downwards in the neutral position. This makes acceleration more difficult and adds stress on your knees. Some riders try to compensate by adjusting the pedal angle offset.
• Ride a lighter wheel:
  Heavy wheels put more stress on your joints and ligaments.
• Nutritional Supplements:
  Glucosamine chondroitin MSM, turmeric, collagen, fish oil
• Healthier knees:
  Improve your knee strength, endurance, and mobility with resistance exercises, walking, and stretching.
  https://www.youtube.com/c/thekneesovertoesguy

I had a pretty messed up knee after my wheel spun out while I was standing with one leg in.
It took me about a year of doing the above to be able to ride again without pain.

Everything he said.  I have worked in orthopedics for 30 years.  Foot wear helped me the most but depending on how much trail riding you do, it is normal to feel like that after.  Take some Nsaids (Motrin, Aleeve) and ice your knees if they are really hurting afterwards.  

[Scubadragonsan]

Before any suggestions, it may be good to know 

17 hours ago, Knight Rider said:

Do any of you guys get knee pain when or after riding/ next day? and if so how do you manage it?

Before any suggestions, it'd be good to know something about you: age, physical condition, riding style, kind of wheel you have, offroad/streets...etc. only if you are willing to share...

[on one]

I get what I can only describe as knee tears kinda like well like when I almost crashed the other day and I bounced off the wall and did a 180 I could tell something was different in my knee, but I knew it was just a tear. I would like a minor tear that my knee could heal up and adjust to so it’s gonna hurt for like three days or so after that but then, after that now it’s normal again which is more flexible.

The human body is actually pretty amazing at healing as long as it’s not like terrible trauma, but a lot of times I find for myself that if I just push through like a little bit of pain, and then whatever nerves were causing the pain, just die or get used to the different tissue state

Edited August 15 by on one
Further

[greekanadian]

I've noticed I've got some knee pain on my right side after the few days i've spent learning on my begode falcon. First wheel and first time euc rider

I've noticed the pedals are sloped inwards, so I'm going to try adjusting them to be more flat

where I got the pain is on the other side of my knee. I think it's mostly from using force to hold the wheel? I'm not sure.

[Bigkidneys]

The most common areas that will hurt afterwards are your meniscus (shock absorbers of your knee joint) and your LCL (lateral collateral ligament) and your MCL medial collateral ligament).   These ligaments connect your femur and tibia on each side of your knee and help form your knee joint.  Nsaids and icing those areas are the easiest way to get over the aches and pains.  As far as cheap braces go that can help anyone while riding, is called a hinged knee brace.  They sell them everywhere.  They have two metal hinges on the sides of your knee that offer additional support to your MCL and LCL ligaments.  The brace below is an example of a hinged knee brace.  You don't need a high dollar one.

[Aztek]

Exactly, a hinged brace helps me avoid the knee pain from the lateral tension my heavy wheel puts on my lateral collateral ligament and the respective meniscus. A cheap one - about 50€.

I guess I've torn my ACL sometime during my life.

Now, my knee continues to click when squatting, but doesn't hurt or get intraarticular effusion post riding.

 

Edited August 16 by Aztek

[houseofjob]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:15 PM, Knight Rider said:

Do any of you guys get knee pain when or after riding/ next day? and if so how do you manage it?

EUC or anything else you use your lower body for, do not keep your legs locked for extended periods, especially when taking a bump, suspension wheel or not. 

Your leg is a spring, and each joint bent (Ala multiple Z pattern extending through toe-on-pedal, ankle, knee, & hip) will load each point of that spring at the connecting tendons (instead of bone-on-bone), and your tendons are much better equipped to take shock than bone-on-bone.

And often overlooked with EUC riding, you don't have to have both legs doing the same thing, you can lock one leg at-a-time, exchanging knee / leg joint bends, which is actually a better recipe for force leverage on the pedals for lean acceleration input.

This really applies to any sport involving your legs, this helped me tons via barefoot running, as I used to get shocks to the knees from straight leg plant shock through femur-on-tibia, due to bad running technique, "heel strike", amplified / enabled by modern running shoe cushioning.

 

Kneesovertoesguy Ben Patrick is a great resource if you want to not necessitate unnecessary equipment / accoutrements, etc, and delve down to the actual training to build-up the supporting muscles and toughen up the tendons that help divert shock to the bones, which avoids knee / leg joint pain:

 

Edited August 16 by houseofjob

[on one]

1 hour ago, Bigkidneys said:

The brace below is an example of a hinged knee brace.  You don't need a high dollar one.

That pictogram make the human knee look like a android mechanism rather than a living regenerative tissue within a living body. And I thought that I read somewhere that those braces actually weaken the knees and make one more prone to injury, investigate this with your physical therapist, who will likely say hell no you can't ride one of those.

[Aztek]

13 hours ago, on one said:

That pictogram make the human knee look like a android mechanism rather than a living regenerative tissue within a living body. And I thought that I read somewhere that those braces actually weaken the knees and make one more prone to injury, investigate this with your physical therapist, who will likely say hell no you can't ride one of those.

This is a simplified anatomical drawing.

Cartilages and ligaments are metabolically inert and (alas) do not regenerate effectively. The lateral hinged stabilization helps an unstable knee which already has collateral ligaments unjury and/or meniscal such. This way the brace would prevent further damage and pain. It doesn't weaken the kneee, as there is no flexion/extension in these directions, hence no muscle would be weakened by limiting it's motion.

Edited August 17 by Aztek

[on one]

3 hours ago, Aztek said:

Cartilages and ligaments are metabolically inert and (alas) do not regenerate effectively.

I'm not sure, doesn't the human body replace every cell every 2 years? Doesn't the diet affect how the knees function? I know what you are saying about permanent trauma. And I have had my knees in a weakened state  before, but then they get stronger really fast if used and then they stop aching. Where's all the tissue keeping the knee alive in that diagram? I have seriously used my knees and subjected them to pretty bad trauma and they always healed themselves stronger than before.

[o u euc 2]

1 hour ago, on one said:

I'm not sure, doesn't the human body replace every cell every 2 years? Doesn't the diet affect how the knees function? I know what you are saying about permanent trauma. And I have had my knees in a weakened state  before, but then they get stronger really fast if used and then they stop aching. Where's all the tissue keeping the knee alive in that diagram? I have seriously used my knees and subjected them to pretty bad trauma and they always healed themselves stronger than before.

I just saw something about how cartilage in the joints deteriorate and don't regenerate, but I also remember that your ears and nose never stop growing because it's all cartilage, so hmm.

I like your take on things best. The body can do amazing things.

The said brain damage never heals either, but now they know better.

About the knee pain, I recently learned they make knee brace guards, Leatt and others make them. I've heard they really help, but pricey.

[on one]

Living with pain is a serious issue for quite a large part of the human population. For me, I notice something as simply as reducing my sugar intake makes a big difference in my perceived pain: neck, back, fingers, knee, all that stuff. So if I pig out on a whole strudel the night before, than my perceived pain the next day will definitely be elevated.

[Darrell Wesh]

22 hours ago, houseofjob said:

EUC or anything else you use your lower body for, do not keep your legs locked for extended periods, especially when taking a bump, suspension wheel or not. 

Your leg is a spring, and each joint bent (Ala multiple Z pattern extending through toe-on-pedal, ankle, knee, & hip) will load each point of that spring at the connecting tendons (instead of bone-on-bone), and your tendons are much better equipped to take shock than bone-on-bone.

And often overlooked with EUC riding, you don't have to have both legs doing the same thing, you can lock one leg at-a-time, exchanging knee / leg joint bends, which is actually a better recipe for force leverage on the pedals for lean acceleration input.

This really applies to any sport involving your legs, this helped me tons via barefoot running, as I used to get shocks to the knees from straight leg plant shock through femur-on-tibia, due to bad running technique, "heel strike", amplified / enabled by modern running shoe cushioning.

 

Kneesovertoesguy Ben Patrick is a great resource if you want to not necessitate unnecessary equipment / accoutrements, etc, and delve down to the actual training to build-up the supporting muscles and toughen up the tendons that help divert shock to the bones, which avoids knee / leg joint pain:

 

What wheel do you ride nowadays?

[houseofjob]

23 hours ago, on one said:

That pictogram make the human knee look like a android mechanism rather than a living regenerative tissue within a living body. And I thought that I read somewhere that those braces actually weaken the knees and make one more prone to injury, investigate this with your physical therapist, who will likely say hell no you can't ride one of those.

10 hours ago, Aztek said:

This is a simplified anatomical drawing.

Cartilages and ligaments are metabolically inert and (alas) do not regenerate effectively. The lateral hinged stabilization helps an unstable knee which already has collateral ligaments unjury and/or meniscal such. This way the brace would prevent further damage and pain. It doesn't weaken the kneee, as there is no flexion/extension in these directions, hence no muscle would be weakened by limiting it's motion.

 

The argument that knee braces weaken the knee, I think this is a oft confused explanation.

More correct would be, knee braces are enablers, like bicycle training wheels, and they prevent you from building up the natural knee brace that is built-in to your leg, ie. the supporting muscles of the VMO / Vastus Medialis Oblique (ie. Inner Quad); Hamstrings; and shin Tibialis Anterior (with lesser degree of the calf muscle gastrocnemius and soleus).

You can naturally build all those muscles, per the kneesovertoesguy training, and it will do the same thing that the knee brace does, tighten the surrounding knee to prevent undo shock to the vulnerable knee components, much like your abs provide rigidity and protection to your spine when doing heavy lifting.

Relying heavily on the knee brace + not training these muscles, you will never develop those muscles, which is what I think they mean by "weaken the knees", muscles are use-it-or-lose-it, no free lunches, then throw on top of that, each decade of your life you naturally lose muscle faster (sarcopenia) if you don't proactively have a good weight training and protein intake regimen.

Same thing with tendons, ligaments, if you don't expose them to any stress (albeit more carefully than muscles), they will never get stronger, probably weaker.

 

5 hours ago, on one said:

Living with pain is a serious issue for quite a large part of the human population. For me, I notice something as simply as reducing my sugar intake makes a big difference in my perceived pain: neck, back, fingers, knee, all that stuff. So if I pig out on a whole strudel the night before, than my perceived pain the next day will definitely be elevated.

100%, sugar is a big inflammatory agent, which manifests in such pain, especially overnight when eating late; I've experienced the same with my body.

Sugar is definitely nature's fuel, need to strategically plan any intake to happen prior to physical exertion, or blunt absorption with a neutralizing agent like fiber or something acidic Ala apple cider vinegar.

 

2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

What wheel do you ride nowadays?

Predominantly Tesla2, because my main riding is quick errand running trips into the city, and still no wheel today has beaten that weight-to-performance ratio (that plus old 100V MSX).

I'm still waiting for these fat wheel wars to go the other way, build more city street optimized wheels, lower kV motors that don't carry obscene amount of magnets, I'm fine sacrificing low end torque for high sustained speeds while lowering motor weight / magnet counts.

I'm hoping the recent lower kV Gotway NFL Blitz 2024 is a signal the tides are turning that way.

 

[greekanadian]

On 8/16/2024 at 10:00 AM, Bigkidneys said:

The most common areas that will hurt afterwards are your meniscus (shock absorbers of your knee joint) and your LCL (lateral collateral ligament) and your MCL medial collateral ligament).   These ligaments connect your femur and tibia on each side of your knee and help form your knee joint.  Nsaids and icing those areas are the easiest way to get over the aches and pains.  As far as cheap braces go that can help anyone while riding, is called a hinged knee brace.  They sell them everywhere.  They have two metal hinges on the sides of your knee that offer additional support to your MCL and LCL ligaments.  The brace below is an example of a hinged knee brace.  You don't need a high dollar one.

how am I going to fit something like this underneath my leatt knee/shin guards? I don't think that is going to happen.

[Aztek]

10 hours ago, on one said:

doesn't the human body replace every cell every 2 years?

No, it doesn't.  Also with age the new cells are not as good as new 😂 (pun intended).

 

9 hours ago, o u euc 2 said:

The said brain damage never heals either, but now they know better.

Neurons can proliferate, true, but nevertheless some nerve tissue damage (most of it) is permanent. Brake your neck and you'll be in a wheelchair forever. Same goes for hyaline cartilage and tendons.

 

10 hours ago, on one said:

Where's all the tissue keeping the knee alive in that diagram?

Missing are the synovial membrane and the joint capsule, so you can see inside the knee.

 

9 hours ago, o u euc 2 said:

your ears and nose never stop growing

Not true in fact. Also the ears are made of very different type of cartilage.

Edited August 17 by Aztek

[on one]

59 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Neurons can proliferate, true, but nevertheless some nerve tissue damage (most of it) is permanent.

I'm not sure about that, and besides, the thing what made einstein so smart were his glial cells, do those regenerate @Aztek ?

Edited August 17 by on one
further

[Knight Rider]

On 8/15/2024 at 4:52 PM, Scubadragonsan said:

Before any suggestions, it may be good to know 

Before any suggestions, it'd be good to know something about you: age, physical condition, riding style, kind of wheel you have, offroad/streets...etc. only if you are willing to share...

I'm 36. I'm 140 pounds. Ride a V11.  I wear a pair of leatts. I x cross the straps on around the one I wear on my left knee since it's slides down a bit. I mount with the left leg first otherwise it's too awkward to do it on my right leg. I don't do any off roading. I alternate between street and sidewalks as needed. I go up and down hills. I avoid manholes and bumps as best I can. I do take some bumps. I either stay far ahead of any truck or bus or let them pass me completely before riding again. I slow down before every speed bump and corner/intersections to check for any incoming riders/cars before speeding up again. My top speed is mostly 25 to 28 miles per hour. I sometimes take it up to 30 on straight ways when there's no other cars in front of me. I straighten out my legs when accelerating and bend them when braking. I only squat to desperately brake thankfully I haven't had to do that too many times. I try to keep my legs slightly bent most of the time. I don't lean to the side too much as I don't think 30 MPH is fast enough for that. I have pedal harness at 70% and ride using offroad and fancy mode. I use fairing plates with the V12 pads.

 

A recent visit to my orthopedic doctor this month revealed that the cartilage in my left knee is wearing out. He tells me that I'm being too rough on the knee and I need to be smart about what I'm doing and suggested a career change like a desk job in Ai or something. Says I got arthritis. Tells me "You don't want a knee replacement at 35" Last thing he said was "I'd love to have this conversation after an MRI" I'm guessing he didn't want to tell me the wrong thing until he was certain. So I gotta finish therapy and see him again in 4 weeks.

[Aztek]

8 hours ago, on one said:

glial cells, do those regenerate @Aztek ?

 

Edited 8 hours ago by on one
further

Yes, the neuroglia proliferates. These are support cells in the tissue. But we are diverting from the topic too much now - bottom line: protect your joints and nerves - they don't regenerate much.

[on one]

 I went for two 35  minute intense rides yesterday. This morning I feel like I got hit by a train and my knees hurt too. I know that I’m just building up strength because I’m going back up to z10 from riding my little king song 14 D, however, riding an euc is quite demanding of the human body, like going water skiing.

@Aztek not going off topic at all, you just missed the sudden investigation into how glial cells effect pain. Let's read this together https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5302176/

and discuss how it might relate to euc knee pain. You are just trying to make me look bad going off topic when really you are being mentally challenged for growth.

Edited August 18 by on one
further

[on one]

10 hours ago, Knight Rider said:

He tells me that I'm being too rough on the knee and I need to be smart about what I'm doing and suggested a career change like a desk job in Ai or something. Says I got arthritis. Tells me "You don't want a knee replacement at 35" Last thing he said was "I'd love to have this conversation after an MRI"

Your doctor sounds obtuse, I think it's worthwhile to find a better doctor who understands more about the human body and wants to work with you to make EUC riding part of your health care plan.

Did your doctor even address your diet at all? I think you could be malnourished. Have you looked into Tumeric and getting a physical therapist and a nutritionist? You really gotta look out for yourself these days in the health care system otherwise you might not get the treatment that you need.

The other thing I thought of for you @Knight Rider is for you to alternate between your v8 and your v11, and don't ride so much if you start getting chronic pain, that way other parts of your body can strengthen and compensate for you knee that's bothering you.

For me, and my pain management strategy, I try to increase my body's natural pain killers, endorphins, as much as possible, by stressing my body just enough to over-produce endorphins, and then step back to allow myself to heal and avoid chronic pain, one spot in my back, one in my neck and one in my knee from a childhood injury when I fell out of a tree.

This article looks like it's worth a read https://www.slidellmemorial.org/blog/the-7-best-ways-to-release-endorphins

lets read it and discuss it as relates to euc.

Edited August 18 by on one
further