I want to EMP proof my EUC

[on one]

Is it as easy as wrapping my EUC in aluminum foil on the inside? Or what would be the best kind of metal wrap to use? Should the wrap be external? Is there a better way?

[Arbolest]

Possible? -- Yes

Easy? -- No

Affordable? -- Not for us mortals

Straightforward once you know how? -- Negatory. Hugely invasive mod

Safe? -- Almost certainly not with techniques available to the average rider

Awesome-sounding and theoretically not a bad idea? -- 

 

[Cerbera]

I'm interested to know what EMP threats OP is expecting, and why he thinks he'll be riding when they happen ?!

[atdlzpae]

Why?
Seriously, why?

If you're in a warzone and EMP is a serious danger:

The most vulnerable part of the EUC (most likely to be affected by an EMP) is the microcontroller - a bitflip causing the wheel to misbehave.
So the best way to make an EUC harder to EMP is to wrap the motherboard with aluminum or copper sheets.
Wrapping the motor wire (so there are no errors with hall sensor<->motherboard communication) is also a good idea.

Hall sensor is inside of a motor, so it's pretty well shielded. Which leaves only one part that's vulnerable - BMS.
However, AFAIK modern EUC BMS'es don't have the "shut down power if voltage is too low" functionality to prevent faceplants. So I don't think it's a concern.

 

So yes - TL;DR: use aluminum/copper foil to shield the motherboard and motor<->motherboard cable.

Edited July 18 by atdlzpae

[Cerbera]

Just now, atdlzpae said:

TL;DR: use aluminum foil to shield the motherboard and motor<->motherboard cable.

Incidentally, is it a good idea to be reflecting the substantial heat from a mainboard right back at it from all the angles ?!

Edited July 18 by Cerbera

[Arbolest]

In all seriousness though, whether or not you CAN do it with a foil-wrap approach basically boils down to a question of how much protection you want.

The metal the foil is made of matters. The total thickness of the coating/wrapping matters. How close it is to the electronics you're worried about matters. Whether it's grounded matters. The hole/gap size of any openings matters. And if there are wires/conductors that breach your shielding (such as motor/sensor/button cables), that matters too.

To be quite honest, EUCs as they are designed now simply aren't built to be EMP-proof. Even with after-market modifications like what you're suggesting, they're just not made for it. None of the circuitry is hardened or isolated in a way that would even make it feasible to try with the expectation of good results :/

I tinker with and mod my wheels to the moon and back, so far be it from me to tell you not to try... Just be aware that this is a DEEP rabbit-hole you're staring down right now.

 

But... If you're serious about it and think you can implement it safely, PLEASE keep us in the loop so we can follow along! 

[atdlzpae]

6 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Is it a good idea to be reflecting the substantial heat from a mainboard right back at it from all the angles ?!

All motherboards have a radiator which is typically made of aluminum, so it's a great shield by itself.
Wrapping the motherboard in a smart way (the radiator still exposed to the air) won't change thermals much.

Or think of it this way: Instead of a radiator from ONE side, now you have a radiator from ALL sides.

Edited July 18 by atdlzpae

[Robse]

This is all waste of time.  You need to do som backward thinking.  Start figuring out how to shield the motor.  Whenever this minor problem is solved go ahead with the rest of the steam punk.....

[Arbolest]

15 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

So the best way to make an EUC harder to EMP is to wrap the motherboard with aluminum or copper sheets.
Wrapping the motor wire (so there are no errors with hall sensor<->motherboard communication) is also a good idea.

Focus on this part. Protecting the motherboard is the primary concern, but ANY wires, components (like the buttons, screen and/or speakers) or other electronics that are connected to the board directly would also need to be protected just as well.

Anything sticking out of the protection of whatever shielding you're using will basically act like an antenna and direct some of the energy from a pulse straight into the board. This can cause just as much damage to the board as having a chip/microcontroller get directly fried.

Edited July 18 by Arbolest

[atdlzpae]

@Arbolest I'm not so sure if shielding random wires to buttons or LCD's is necessary though.
Microcontrollers tend to be rated for discharges up to 1000V to protect them against electrostatic discharge. So random inducted current shouldn't really fry them unless EMP is extremely strong.

Edited July 18 by atdlzpae

[Arbolest]

Just now, atdlzpae said:

 So random inducted current shouldn't really fry them unless EMP is extremely strong.

Very true.

I just uh.... tend to let my imagination wander out to the edges of any given envelope 

Also, we don't know how doomsday-prepared @on one wants to be. They MIGHT want to protect their wheel from a pulse strong enough that it turns their skin into a glowing plasma, who knows. I say if you're going to play the game, then play for keeps! 

[on one]

I was hoping to provide my wheel some protection against EMP of the most likely forms of which there are many on the EMP wiki entry. Nuclear war is more likely than ever in my lifetime. In addition I thought I would get some peace of mind while riding if I wrapped  my wheel in Faraday cage tape. I like the idea of still having transportation after an EMP, which is likely at some point in my lifetime, but even if there isn't an EMP, just wrapping my wheel in Faraday cage tape, which is pretty cheap, seems like it would shield my wheel from negative influences while riding. Faraday cage tape is only like $15 per roll.

[Robse]

if there will be 3ww with nuclear weapons, there will be no euc rding afterwards. All in all, nothing at all.

[on one]

I just figured that it's a small thing I can do, that seems like could have massive benefit for me. I wonder if I get the tape and apply it to my wheel, are there any potential dangers of using the Faraday tape?

[atdlzpae]

Since this discussion goes from theoretical "how & why" to "I'm gonna do it", I'm opting out.

This is a way better way to spend an hour.

[Funky]

I personally liked the WR3 part.. By that time you not gonna be riding. If rockets start flying you gonna be riding in grave.

[xiiijojjo]

Don't worry about nuclear war causing EMPs. If nuclear war breaks out it mean that some leader from a nuclear nation no longer cares about the principles of mutually assured destruction, which would likely spell the end of life on the surface of this planet (at least for a good while), but even if you find yourself living on an island nation that wasn't targeted, nuclear winter will likely get you, unless you have a large underground facility where you can grow crops, using grow lights and a generator burning fossil fuel. 

You could build a little faraday cage that you park you EUCs inside of, if you need the comfort of knowing that you'll remain able to ride your EUC as the world burns and then freezes over. If you do that then you should store some Solar panels in the cage(CIGS solar panels are very durable and will last you at least a lifetime)  since fuel is going to go bad after a while. You could also store some fuel stabilizer that can be added to old stagnant fuel to reactivate it. Don't forget to store a ton of non-nuclear tainted water too. You're also gonna need a lot of water filters in storage

If you're taking soil from outside after the blast, to grow crops with indoors, be sure to remove the top 5-10inch layer of soil as it will be irradiated and more likely to not sprout your seeds or create problems down the line.

... Really if the bombs drop you have bigger priorities than having an EMP proof wheel and probably wouldn't need a vehicle as most of what you'd be doing would be looting your local area for electronics that happened to not get fried (particularity solar panels, batteries and inverters) preserved food, sealed water, seeds and gardening supplies/fertilizers (we ourselves are fertilizer machines if you think about it)

I could go on, but let's leave it here

Edited July 18 by xiiijojjo

[MacGyverCanada]

I'm not so sure that an EUC would be all that effected by something like a solar flare.  A Carrington-type event would induce current through conductors, but they need to be physically quite large to build up anything substantial... like several kilometers of electrical cables.  If you unplug your EUC from the electrical grid it should be fine.  

Edited July 18 by macgyvercanada

[Robse]

26 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

Don't worry about nuclear war causing EMPs. If nuclear war breaks out it mean that some leader from a nuclear nation no longer cares about the principles of mutually assured destruction, which would likely spell the end of life on the surface of this planet (at least for a good while), but even if you find yourself living on an island nation that wasn't targeted, nuclear winter will likely get you, unless you have a large underground facility where you can grow crops, using grow lights and a generator burning fossil fuel. 

You could build a little faraday cage that you park you EUCs inside of, if you need the comfort of knowing that you'll remain able to ride your EUC as the world burns and then freezes over. If you do that then you should store some Solar panels in the cage(CIGS solar panels are very durable and will last you at least a lifetime)  since fuel is going to go bad after a while. You could also store some fuel stabilizer that can be added to old stagnant fuel to reactivate it. Don't forget to store a ton of non-nuclear tainted water too. You're also gonna need a lot of water filters in storage

If you're taking soil from outside after the blast, to grow crops with indoors, be sure to remove the top 5-10inch layer of soil as it will be irradiated and more likely to not sprout your seeds or create problems down the line.

... Really if the bombs drop you have bigger priorities than having an EMP proof wheel and probably wouldn't need a vehicle as most of what you'd be doing would be looting your local area for electronics that happened to not get fried (particularity solar panels, batteries and inverters) preserved food, sealed water, seeds and gardening supplies/fertilizers (we ourselves are fertilizer machines if you think about it)

I could go on, but let's leave it here

time for a break, anybody ever read this comic book or seen the movie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_the_Wind_Blows_(comics)

if you search a bit you can find the movie online... some suspicious place where it's good to have a bit of antivirus installed.

[alcatraz]

I'd shield the control board. Use a fine metal mesh perhaps to allow air flow.

I actually had a cutout/overlean that seemed like what emp would cause. Just a sudden wheel shutdown. I was passing an industrial zone at the time as well.

Who knows what type of machines they were using. Spot welders, whatever... Sudden surges.

It was on a wheel I had total confidence in as I already had ridden 12.000km and I wasn't doing anything different.

Edited July 19 by alcatraz

[atdlzpae]

TBH since the microcontroller is the part that's most likely to suffer from an EMP... Maybe just put a radiator on it? It's a single chip, so 1 square cm. Tiny Raspberry PI radiator should make the EUC way, way more EMP-proof.

For example look at Inmotion V12 motherboard. It's extremely well shielded from one side. Thus if you put a tiny radiator on top, that basically covers the whole microcontroller from almost all sides.

[Magman116]

To me, this would be akin to having a TEMPEST certified EUC. If an EUC could be shielded to be TEMPEST compliant, then it would theoretically work against EMP's.

There are different EMF shielding mesh tapes that could be used, but you would need to know the frequency and basic intensity of the EMP. In systems I have worked on in the past, they employed different mesh tapes made with different size openings and made of different conductive materials.  We used that in conjunction with RF absorbent matt material to block both transmitted and received electromagnetic fields or rf Radiation.

Sounds like a fun, time consuming project that may have some future benefit if the World goes to crap.  You have to make sure you have sufficient separation between the electronics you wish to protect and the mesh tape due to the radiated field that would be induced in the mesh tape.

In addition to the shielding, you need to have a path to dissipate the energy either through absorption or dissipating to ground.

Edited July 19 by Magman116

[on one]

After a few injurious cut outs on my Z10, I decided to go ahead and place the order for some faraday tape. Never fear I possess a curing holy basil wax, so my body is quite on the mend, rather quickly. I'm hoping to understand my machine better, and not to over shoot Ninebot Z10 tolerance loads. Perhaps intelligence and caution will prevail in this matter?

[DavidB]

On 7/18/2024 at 9:34 PM, Robse said:

This is all waste of time.  You need to do som backward thinking.  Start figuring out how to shield the motor.  Whenever this minor problem is solved go ahead with the rest of the steam punk.....

Thanks for this post. I was wondering what the E25 reminded me of. Not quite retro or art deco more.... Steam punk ...tho' not really.

Anyway I read somewhere if you are trying block phone signals and wrap your phone in Al foil it doesn't work if there there is even the slightest gap in the fold/ wrap. No idea if true or not.

Maybe an alloy skin on a suitcase type wheel may help but the EMP may get in via the tire opening.

[on one]

Children in my community like to experiment with electromagnetic tools for fun so it's okay, I live in a children's paradise, so now they shot me down, I must fortify my transport. I knew this already was going to happen. I am not too terribly sure what comes next. Perhaps, I just tape my machine up and hope for the best?