Leaperkim Sherman L 151V 4000wh 20" 102lbs

[Anthraksi]

27 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

As long as the wheel is not loosing traction (never heard of a EUC doing that in normal conditions) or you are overpowering the wheel then there is always potential to lean more and it all comes down to how hard you are leaning.

There is one aspect that is different between wheels though: how comfortable you are at leaning it, if the wheel is not powerful for example you might be scared of overpowering it so naturally you will be leaning less because of that, if the wheel is heavier it can take more practice, same with higher pedals maybe one is not used to that and need to practice and get comfortable with that, but with practice you can accelerate or brake any wheel very hard as long you are not overpowering it (and with how powerful all the wheels on the market have become this is becoming more and more difficult).

Pedal mode can help also, soft mode will help you lean more but with practice you can lean just as hard with hard mode also, so it's an assist but definitely not necessary.

Same thing with this acceleration assist on the Sherman L, it's there to make it easier but with practice someone can get skilled enough to accelerate just as hard without it, but what acceleration assist can do is to make riders feel more comfortable accelerating on this relatively heavy wheel.

So in essence rider skill will determine these factors but wheel behaviour (pedal modes) can affect rider perception and make it "feel" easier.

But what I am trying to say with all this is that it is technically wrong to think that one wheel will accelerate or brake faster just because your perception tells you it's easier, the potential is still there to be tapped, that doesn't make your perception or feeling of how easy it is wrong, they are two different things.

And don't forget that pads can change a lot, if they are in the way or too far away it will affect your riding capability and thus also your perception.

Sure. But the question rises that if you are already doing the sitting down motion and even pulling back on the front handle, is there huge gains to be had anymore? I feel like that is pretty much the realistic maximum braking power you are going to get, it of course depends on how much you lean backwards in that position as well, but considering that grabbing the front handle while braking is a somewhat advanced move it usually suggests that you aren't really afraid of leaning aggressively.

I'm not saying you are wrong either. But even though there is theoretically more headroom for even more braking power before the wheel cuts off, how realistic or easy it is to access that extra power if you are already doing the things stated above.

But the original point was if it were possible to test the braking power differences between two wheels and the rider would be able to brake with exactly the same lean angle on both runs, the wheel with more power/torque would stop at a shorter distance. Let's say for demonstration purposes there are 2 Sherman L's with otherwise identical specs and weight, pad setup and dimensions of the wheel itself, but the other is with Sherman S hardware and motor and the other one is with the L's hardware and motor. And the rider would be able to replicate his braking manouvers with 100% accuracy. The L would have a shorter braking distance. But this is all just in theory, since this impossible to accurately measure or test since 100% consistent results are impossible to get on EUC's (at least for acceleration and braking) for reasons you mentioned earlier, since those are largely dependent on rider skill.

And that was the original point, due to more power, the Sherman L probably has an easier time braking than the S with similar manouvers being applied. Yes, it is largely rider skill dependant as well, that much is clear.

But I still do wonder if we ever will get a true braking assist that is not just the pedals tilting backwards and instead recognizes your input to start rotating the motor the other way around and assists in that by gently increasing the rotation speed, or however you may wanna call it. Key word being gently, if it yanks from 0-100% suddenly the end result would not be great either.

[Rawnei]

13 minutes ago, Anthraksi said:

But the original point was if it were possible to test the braking power differences between two wheels and the rider would be able to brake with exactly the same lean angle on both runs, the wheel with more power/torque would stop at a shorter distance.

That is technically impossible, the wheel is keeping itself balanced, that's it's job, it can not bake more than you are leaning or balance would be lost and you would fall, it's maintaining an equilibrium between input and output.

[Jason McNeil]

Beidou's working on a new seat design. He says it's not going make first production, scheduled to depart in a couple weeks, estimating 4-6 weeks. 

 

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Beidou's working on a new seat design. He says it's not going make first production, scheduled to depart in a couple weeks, estimating 4-6 weeks. 

 

He's doing the same mistake as the Lynx seat with those two parts in the front, they can hit the inner side of the legs while doing sharp turns and can be a cause pain over time, they're not necessary either since you don't sit there, in case you are able to give him feedback.

[Jason McNeil]

43 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

He's doing the same mistake as the Lynx seat with those two parts in the front, they can hit the inner side of the legs while doing sharp turns and can be a cause pain over time, they're not necessary either since you don't sit there, in case you are able to give him feedback.

Good point, he's making adjustments to the pad to minimize upper leg contact with the pad. 

[stephen]

so there's 2 different options for battery cells 50s & 50gb I don't really do speed but I do like to fast charge when needed, apart from the charging anything else have different between them?

Edited July 11 by stephen

[Anthraksi]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

so there's 2 different options for battery cells 50s & 50gb I don't really do speed but I do like to fast charge when needed, apart from the charging anything else have different between them?

I see no point going 50gb. You are already spending +4k on the wheel so the difference isnt that big overall. 50s is just better in every way so I see no point in skimping on the battery when you are already paying a lot.

Also I see no option for the 50GB on the few places I checked, whats the price difference exactly?

IMO they should just build one version of the battery… if we got 50S and 50GB and 58 (does this still exist?), 62, 66 and 70lbs suspension we got a total of 8 different variants.

Edit: Price difference between 50S and 50GB is 400aud in Australia so around 270usd, so the short answer is that no one should get the 50gb cells.

Edited July 11 by Anthraksi

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Anthraksi said:

I see no point going 50gb. You are already spending +4k on the wheel so the difference isnt that big overall. 50s is just better in every way so I see no point in skimping on the battery when you are already paying a lot.

Also I see no option for the 50GB on the few places I checked, whats the price difference exactly?

IMO they should just build one version of the battery… if we got 50S and 50GB and 58 (does this still exist?), 62, 66 and 70lbs suspension we got a total of 8 different variants.

Edit: Price difference between 50S and 50GB is 400aud in Australia so around 270usd, so the short answer is that no one should get the 50gb cells.

thx very much just weighing up the options not to save money but the most range batteries at slower speeds thx

[Clem604]

Just popped down to Eevees to check out the new Sherman L. I wasn't allowed to ride it (yet) so I can't give you guys any ride impressions other than the test rider saying that the wheel is more responsive at low and high speed. What he means by that I will have to find out in a future test ride. For those who value the trolley handle, I can say that the stock L trolley handle is excellent and league's better than the V1 or V2 handle from the S mainly due to it being metal. It is weirdly easier to lift than my S because of the height of the front and rear handles?? Other than that the exterior differences from the S are the Lynx headlight, taillight, pedals, rear facing charge ports, and tubeless tire!

Edited July 12 by Clem604

[Merkyu Kyu Kyu]

Sherman L - Maneuverability

[BKW]

16 hours ago, Clem604 said:

Just popped down to Eevees to check out the new Sherman L. I wasn't allowed to ride it (yet) so I can't give you guys any ride impressions other than the test rider saying that the wheel is more responsive at low and high speed. What he means by that I will have to find out in a future test ride. For those who value the trolley handle, I can say that the stock L trolley handle is excellent and league's better than the V1 or V2 handle from the S mainly due to it being metal. It is weirdly easier to lift than my S because of the height of the front and rear handles?? Other than that the exterior differences from the S are the Lynx headlight, taillight, pedals, rear facing charge ports, and tubeless tire!

this looks quality.

I really don't see any noticeable issues with the design like we've seen with other EUCs.

Edited July 12 by BKW

[Paul g]

3 hours ago, Merkyu Kyu Kyu said:

Sherman L - Maneuverability

Manoeuvrability has always been strong with this guy

[Clem604]

2 hours ago, BKW said:

this looks quality.

I really don't see any noticeable issues with the design like we've seen with other EUCs.

Yeah I had a while to really look over the hardware and it is definitely more refined than that of the Sherman S. Whether there will be issues or not with the L remains to be seen,  but I am hoping there won't be and it will be a mostly issue free wheel as my S has been for 2 years.

Edited July 12 by Clem604

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

Yeah I had a while to really look over the hardware and it is definitely more refined than that of the Sherman S. Whether there will be issues or not with the L remains to be seen but I am hoping there won't be and it will be a mostly issue free wheel as my S has been for 2 years.

But as you know, if you want to be sure, you can't lose if you wait, when it comes to new euc releases.

[Clem604]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

But as you know, if you want to be sure, you can't lose if you wait, when it comes to new euc releases.

Absolutely, I'm doing the wait and see thing like most EUC enthusiasts will do to see what problems arise but so far I like what I see. I'm not in a huge hurry as I still like my Sherman S a lot and have no problem riding it to 30,000km's (18,641 miles)!

Edited July 13 by Clem604

[Stickysock]

1 hour ago, Clem604 said:

Absolutely, I'm doing the wait and see thing like most (some) EUC enthusiasts will do to see what problems arise but so far I like what I see. I'm not in a huge hurry as I still like my Sherman S a lot and have no problem riding it to 30,000km's (18,641 miles)!

I was a batch 1 Patton owner with a pretty damn good experience, but even with all this anticipation, I believe I'll wait for batch 2 or 3 for the Sherman L.

 

I honestly wanted to pre order as I almost bought a ET max last week. But at $4,500 it removes a lot of that giddiness to order right away.

 

Cost about as much as I'm selling my Zero for.

[Duster]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:45 AM, Rawnei said:

That is technically impossible, the wheel is keeping itself balanced, that's it's job, it can not bake more than you are leaning or balance would be lost and you would fall, it's maintaining an equilibrium between input and output.

So, I think I get the point you are making, Rawnei, and I feel I could word Anthraksi's concern a little differently:  as a Sherman S rider, I have learned to use my arms, fully extended, for that extra leaning power when accelerating and braking.  it has done wonders, to the point that I once reached beeps when accelerating, even felt a slight, slow dip, so I had to lay off the lean at the moment... Granted, I was probably at around 30-40% battery. However, my OG Sherman would definitely sooner give warning beeps or dip (even at 80%+ battery), so there is definitely more power in the SS, even with the same nominal battery voltage.  So, to your point, the SS definitely has plenty of power for a lot of lean. However, given that I was capable of reaching said beeps on the SS makes me wonder whether I am nowhere near the full power of the wheel (even when charged to 100%), like you suggest, or if I am right at the cusp and would therefore need to worry about dipping or cutting out when emergency braking.

I agree that lean angle determines acceleration and braking to a great degree. And if I am understanding you correctly, even if the SL has a higher cutoff threshold than the SS, the threshold should be so high on both that we don't have to worry. So, by that logic, the only reason to get the SL is to have an even higher sense of security from a higher power motor and higher voltage battery system, and not a presumed increase in acceleration. However, doesn't the way manufacturers tune power curves affect acceleration to some degree? Thats where Begode gets their reputation for responsive wheels, I presume. And with others suggesting the SL is "more responsive" (can't remember if this is compared to the SS or not), shouldn't Leaperkim's tuning of a higher power SL be at least a little different than the SS? (This idea cannot be confirmed without real world testing, so I'm mostly just asking your opinion and predictions out of curiosity.)

Lastly, is it possible that a common misconception occurs when one combines the above "threshold" theory with concepts like low-end torque (the stuff that gets you over roots and up stairs, like in the promotional videos)? The Leaperkim team suggest that the SL's motor has higher torque than the Lynx, but does that make a difference in lean angle in the roots/stairs scenario? I'm inclined to believe so, thinking that a quicker torque response (hence "more responsive") would sooner get the wheel over the obstacle. Again, I can't tell if this is attributable to motor power, battery voltage, or power curve tuning.

[Rawnei]

35 minutes ago, Duster said:

So, I think I get the point you are making, Rawnei, and I feel I could word Anthraksi's concern a little differently:  as a Sherman S rider, I have learned to use my arms, fully extended, for that extra leaning power when accelerating and braking.  it has done wonders, to the point that I once reached beeps when accelerating, even felt a slight, slow dip, so I had to lay off the lean at the moment... Granted, I was probably at around 30-40% battery. However, my OG Sherman would definitely sooner give warning beeps or dip (even at 80%+ battery), so there is definitely more power in the SS, even with the same nominal battery voltage.  So, to your point, the SS definitely has plenty of power for a lot of lean. However, given that I was capable of reaching said beeps on the SS makes me wonder whether I am nowhere near the full power of the wheel (even when charged to 100%), like you suggest, or if I am right at the cusp and would therefore need to worry about dipping or cutting out when emergency braking.

I agree that lean angle determines acceleration and braking to a great degree. And if I am understanding you correctly, even if the SL has a higher cutoff threshold than the SS, the threshold should be so high on both that we don't have to worry. So, by that logic, the only reason to get the SL is to have an even higher sense of security from a higher power motor and higher voltage battery system, and not a presumed increase in acceleration. However, doesn't the way manufacturers tune power curves affect acceleration to some degree? Thats where Begode gets their reputation for responsive wheels, I presume. And with others suggesting the SL is "more responsive" (can't remember if this is compared to the SS or not), shouldn't Leaperkim's tuning of a higher power SL be at least a little different than the SS? (This idea cannot be confirmed without real world testing, so I'm mostly just asking your opinion and predictions out of curiosity.)

Lastly, is it possible that a common misconception occurs when one combines the above "threshold" theory with concepts like low-end torque (the stuff that gets you over roots and up stairs, like in the promotional videos)? The Leaperkim team suggest that the SL's motor has higher torque than the Lynx, but does that make a difference in lean angle in the roots/stairs scenario? I'm inclined to believe so, thinking that a quicker torque response (hence "more responsive") would sooner get the wheel over the obstacle. Again, I can't tell if this is attributable to motor power, battery voltage, or power curve tuning.

Sherman S is only a 100V wheel, granted it does have a strong controller and motor for a 100V wheel but yes you can overpower it, but my main point was that people complaining about wheels feeling sluggish or one wheel accelerating faster than the other when they are not even near to using the wheels full potential in those scenarios they have to look at what they can change themselves.

Let me give you an example, lets say a really skilled rider manage to do some insane leans on a Lynx for some truly awesome acceleration, the same rider does the same thing on a Sherman S to the point where it will actually pedal dips (let's pretend he recovers and everything went ok), that rider wouldn't call the Sherman S sluggish, it still accelerated very fast, but he would remark how he managed to overpowered the wheel and got it to pedal dip and next time he does this he will be more careful but the Sherman S still wasn't "sluggish" for him, he just couldn't push it as hard as the Lynx.

Then we add acceleration assist to the mix, acceleration assist is just a fancy term and actually just firmware increasing the pedal angle which will help the rider lean more with less effort, now the rider thinks that the wheel is doing some crazy acceleration magic on its own but all that is happening is that the pedals went more forward and as a result the rider was leaning more forward, thus the rider will think it was more effortless and easier to accelerate because they didn't have to push as hard to achieve the same lean.

[Duster]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Sherman S is only a 100V wheel, granted it does have a strong controller and motor for a 100V wheel but yes you can overpower it, but my main point was that people complaining about wheels feeling sluggish or one wheel accelerating faster than the other when they are not even near to using the wheels full potential in those scenarios they have to look at what they can change themselves.

Let me give you an example, lets say a really skilled rider manage to do some insane leans on a Lynx for some truly awesome acceleration, the same rider does the same thing on a Sherman S to the point where it will actually pedal dips (let's pretend he recovers and everything went ok), that rider wouldn't call the Sherman S sluggish, it still accelerated very fast, but he would remark how he managed to overpowered the wheel and got it to pedal dip and next time he does this he will be more careful but the Sherman S still wasn't "sluggish" for him, he just couldn't push it as hard as the Lynx.

Then we add acceleration assist to the mix, acceleration assist is just a fancy term and actually just firmware increasing the pedal angle which will help the rider lean more with less effort, now the rider thinks that the wheel is doing some crazy acceleration magic on its own but all that is happening is that the pedals went more forward and as a result the rider was leaning more forward, thus the rider will think it was more effortless and easier to accelerate because they didn't have to push as hard to achieve the same lean.

Ah, ok. That's making a little more sense.

When I hit the beeps and started leaning less, I did feel "sluggish," but only because I wasn't accelerating as fast as I wanted to. But again, my experience was at lower battery (and now that I think about it, I was going uphill too), and the only other times I've gotten beeps was hitting bumps while accelerating, which is normal. So, arguably I've only conditionally hit the limit of the SS's 100v system., and I'm likely further from the limit when near 100%.

Would you say that, from the SS on, the best way to look at higher power batteries and motors in the Leaperkim lineup is to consider them almost strictly as upgrades to the safety margin/top speed?

[Rawnei]

4 hours ago, Duster said:

Would you say that, from the SS on, the best way to look at higher power batteries and motors in the Leaperkim lineup is to consider them almost strictly as upgrades to the safety margin/top speed?

That is the development we've seen: more volts, stronger controllers (more current), more torque and more top speed, all this translates to more headroom and more safety you can accelerate even harder without worrying about overpowering the wheel and the limit is becoming more and more the rider themselves rather than the wheel.

[YCC]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

That is the development we've seen: more volts, stronger controllers (more current), more torque and more top speed, all this translates to more headroom and more safety you can accelerate even harder without worrying about overpowering the wheel and the limit is becoming more and more the rider themselves rather than the wheel.

How do you explain that the motor of Sherman L is same as Lynx? It seems they are not going to equip the motor of higher power.

Edited July 13 by YCC

[Rawnei]

40 minutes ago, YCC said:

How do you explain that the motor of Sherman L is same as Lynx? It seems they are not going to equip the motor of higher power.

What exactly do you want me to explain and why are you asking me?

Sherman L is just a Lynx with bigger batteries.

[Anthraksi]

1 hour ago, YCC said:

How do you explain that the motor of Sherman L is same as Lynx? It seems they are not going to equip the motor of higher power.

Power ratings are mostly bullshit anyway. But either way its 99% certain that the motor and basically everything (except the battery) is the same as the Lynx.

But I guess you can ride the L harder for a longer period of time, especially with 50s cells. 6p batteries sag less than the 4p ones and can output more power at lower voltages as well.

[WheelGoodTime]

41 minutes ago, Anthraksi said:

Power ratings are mostly bullshit anyway. But either way its 99% certain that the motor and basically everything (except the battery) is the same as the Lynx.

But I guess you can ride the L harder for a longer period of time, especially with 50s cells. 6p batteries sag less than the 4p ones and can output more power at lower voltages as well.

I have heard conflicting reports about the SL's motor having more torque and acceleration compared to the lynx, something to do with the way the copper is wound in the motor. But then I hear that they are exactly the same motor. Honestly it's driving me crazy that I can't get a straight answer from the few people who have ridden it 😂

Edited July 13 by WheelGoodTime

[Paul g]

     This is all hype bull-s. and I don’t believe a word until I hear several trustworthy youtubers saying all the same thing or I try it myself. The motor on ShermanL might be optimised for speed compared to the Lynx, because in the videos released it clearly shows higher no-load speed, and that means it will have less torque than the Lynx for the same format tile magnet.

Edited July 13 by Paul g