Kingsong King-F22 , the King of High Performance | 155.4V 20" 2738Wh 50S

[PourUC]

20 hours ago, Kingsong second hand eucs said:

The F22's motherboard has more capacitors relative to the S22 pro, no doubt about it.

More relative to the S22, but beating the S22 is expected. It's the Lynx that would be it's main rival.

[The Brahan Seer]

A couple of good features of this suspension design is how the back of the suspension shock/stanchion are protected from splash back/debris from the wheel and how easy it is to wipe them down after a ride without the need to remove anything to gain access.

[The Brahan Seer]

Full video of Ecodrifts first look at prototype F22.. (TL;DW also very briefly mentions S14 suspension/non suspension? <20Kg wheel incoming and Leaperkim now developing a more powerful wheel than the Lynx.)

 

Edited June 21 by The Brahan Seer

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Full video of Ecodrifts first look at prototype F22.. (TL;DW also very briefly mentions S14 suspension/non suspension? <20Kg wheel incoming and Leaperkim now developing a more powerful wheel than the Lynx.)

2cells1pack accompanied by ex-Jack-Kingsong, got a tour of the old Kingsong factory. Here, we see eco-drift went through a semi-guided-unguided tour of Kingsong's new factory.

Too bad not more was said regarding Leaper Kim's soon to be released products.

At least we learnt that Kingsong will released a version of the F22 to directly compete with the Lynx, and a later version with more battery for more range.

[DavidB]

That Ecodrift KS factory tour was quite the eye opener. 

Edited June 23 by DavidB

[WheelGoodTime]

4 hours ago, DavidB said:

That Ecodrift KS factory tour was quite the eye opener. 

indeed it was. I found it interesting that they were not particularly pumped about this unit. I know that it's an early prototype, and those will never hold a candle to the production models.

 

Some things that I find concerning about the F22:

-The height and turning difficulty that they described was a bit concerning. If this is going to be a flagship wheel and a "lynx killer", then it needs to be light...ish. It also should be easy to turn, and they described the tire as one that requires too much effort to turn at low speeds. This is reminiscent of the ET Max, partly due to the weight, partly due to the height of the wheel, and also... the tire. Many people have already said this, but having 4 suspension forks is ridiculous. It adds unnecessary weight, adds more moving parts to potentially break, and having it tuned unevenly may cause excessive compression on one side and make for a wonky ride.

-The exposed rollers next to the pedals. This is inviting dirt and grime to get up in there on any muddy off-road situation and cause havoc.

-The headlight appears to not have angle adjustment. 

-The motor appears to be styled after the S22, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - but if it is, I do worry about it being waterproof. No KS wheel has been waterproof rated yet, and that is concerning for the F22. The same is the case for EB wheels as well. It's 2024 and most flagship EUCs have waterproofing by now. If there's little to no effort put into waterproofing a wheel, then I'm turned off to wanting to own that EUC - it's practicalyl a deal breaker for me. We'll see if it's waterproof in the official announcement...

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, WheelGoodTime said:

-The motor appears to be styled after the S22, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - but if it is, I do worry about it being waterproof. No KS wheel has been waterproof rated yet, and that is concerning for the F22. The same is the case for EB wheels as well. It's 2024 and most flagship EUCs have waterproofing by now. If there's little to no effort put into waterproofing a wheel, then I'm turned off to wanting to own that EUC - it's practicalyl a deal breaker for me. We'll see if it's waterproof in the official announcement...

Wow this is completely wrong, no motor is waterproof, even the "IP rated" wheels have problem with water ingress in the bearings, V14 is a prime example of this and modern Begode wheels don't have a stellar track record either.

Meanwhile the S22 Pro GF motor probably have the best water protection of all the motors currently on the market due to one little ingenious design choice that nobody else has yet mimicked, it has a lip that extrudes before the oil seal/bearing which creates a barrier so that water trickles off the side instead of right into the seal/bearing.

And if we focus on the s22 itself it is a very water resistant wheel out or the box, it has two small ingress points in hard to reach places that are easily fixed, I've ridden mine for two winter seasons now (Swedish winter with lots of snow, water and salt), not bad for a wheel that came out long ago by now.

So if you're gonna nitpick things about King Song don't pick the things they're actually doing a good job with and please take a more critical look at the manufacturers that you give praise to and don't blindly trust their claims about waterproofing.

Edited June 23 by Rawnei

[Mikhailo]

Now I really think that it would be for the best if kingsong simply updated their s22 with new battery and motherboard that it could handle 150+ volts and be under 40kg of weight. With current weight 50+kg this wheel is as good as dead right now, they won't overtake begode with their dynamics and leaperkim with their power to weight ratio. So I guess kingsong again managed to make some kind of strange wheel, not to mention their commitment to use dirt cheap parts in production.

[PourUC]

13 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

-The height and turning difficulty that they described was a bit concerning. If this is going to be a flagship wheel and a "lynx killer", then it needs to be light...ish. It also should be easy to turn, and they described the tire as one that requires too much effort to turn at low speeds. This is reminiscent of the ET Max, partly due to the weight, partly due to the height of the wheel, and also... the tire. Many people have already said this, but having 4 suspension forks is ridiculous. It adds unnecessary weight, adds more moving parts to potentially break, and having it tuned unevenly may cause excessive compression on one side and make for a wonky ride.

-The exposed rollers next to the pedals. This is inviting dirt and grime to get up in there on any muddy off-road situation and cause havoc.

-The headlight appears to not have angle adjustment. 

-The motor appears to be styled after the S22, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - but if it is, I do worry about it being waterproof. No KS wheel has been waterproof rated yet, and that is concerning for the F22. The same is the case for EB wheels as well. It's 2024 and most flagship EUCs have waterproofing by now. If there's little to no effort put into waterproofing a wheel, then I'm turned off to wanting to own that EUC - it's practicalyl a deal breaker for me. We'll see if it's waterproof in the official announcement...

Despite being against this wheel, I think some bits here are wrong. The motor has already been commented on so I will talk about the stanchions.

Having 4 isn't inherently bad and it also doesn't necessarily increase weight if their structural rigidity is used as a stress member, allowing the traditional frame to be lighter. Also, only 2 of them are actual suspension units and the other two just being sliders. This 4 slider design is Kingsongs schtick at this point and has been on all their wheels since the S18 so the concept of 4 sliders isn't new to them.

There are potential downsides, but properly sealed units don't need anything if built properly. Then the 2 suspension units would have regular suspension maintenance requirements same as other wheels. In regards to unbalancing, this is yet to be seen in any of their wheels. Issues with dirt ingress and what not, but nothing like wheels feeling unbalanced. In fact, the S22 due to a combination of low weight, low cog and a fat ass tyre is one of the most stable wheels out there.

Onto not being too thrilled by the prototype. It's using S19 internals so I get why they wouldn't be. I assume Kingsong haven't got anywhere close to actually having production ready for their claimed specification/

[The Brahan Seer]

17 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

The exposed rollers next to the pedals. This is inviting dirt and grime to get up in there on any muddy off-road situation and cause havoc.

 

This remark is total nonsense. If you read the subtitles you would understand the rollers won't appear in the production model and is just used in this mock-up prototype.

17 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

The headlight appears to not have angle adjustment. 

How do you know? thats just a guess on your part on a prototype.

 

17 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

The motor appears to be styled after the S22,

Other videos of this wheel have already stated that this prototype is just using the S22 motor and control board and is not representative of the final product at all.

You sometimes release some entertaining vlogs and I know how much work goes into them but your research is very poor. This is a real shame as it makes me take everything you say with a pinch of salt and makes your credibility very suspect. 

[WheelGoodTime]

5 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

This remark is total nonsense. If you read the subtitles you would understand the rollers won't appear in the production model and is just used in this mock-up prototype.

How do you know? thats just a guess on your part on a prototype.

 

Other videos of this wheel have already stated that this prototype is just using the S22 motor and control board and is not representative of the final product at all.

You sometimes release some entertaining vlogs and I know how much work goes into them but your research is very poor. This is a real shame as it makes me take everything you say with a pinch of salt and makes your credibility very suspect. 

Wow, catching lots of flak here. Be aware that those were my stated concerns based on this video - not a review of the product. The only hands-on video I've seen of the F22 thus far is the one from EcoDrift. I am aware that it's only a prototype and not a finished product. I don't recall them saying that the 4x stanchions design won't appear the same way in the final product but I'll take your word for it. I have no interest in getting into pissing matches over someone's emotional response from my stated concerns about this wheel... based on a prototype video. I'm sure that someday I'll have the opportunity to check it out in person around the time it's released, during which more definitive statements can be made. Till then, at the risk of sounding like a broken record: those are just my thoughts and concerns about it thus far - so please regard them as such.

Edited June 24 by WheelGoodTime

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, WheelGoodTime said:

those are just my thoughts and concerns about it thus far

and yet if you had just read one page back on this very informative thread you would have seen the other vlogs and a clearer picture. Better still if you have read from the start, even more so. But if you don't have the time or can't be bothered thats fine. Just don't be surprised when you get called out on your views. Also my reply to you wasn't intended as flak so stop taking it that way. Its constructive criticism now you can either learn something from it, take offence or totally ignore it. Entirely up to you. Awesome! Have a nice day.

 

 

[Robse]

The idea of 4 shocks instead of 2 suits me fine.
I have always believed, and still believe, that in
order for a suspension system to function optimally,
it must respond to obstacles "before" those obstacles
get behind the vertical centerline of the vehicle.
It is the only way to achieve effective and correct
damping of unevenness in the roadway.
As it is now, all EUC's without exception have no
ability to process bumps until they are already under
the rider's center of mass.  And thereby a movement in
suspensions will result in a forward (opposite) movement,
instead of backwards towards the center of the vehicle.
There are no cars, motorcycles or other vehicles where
the suspension handles bumps backwards.
With shocks on each side of the axle, front and rear,
the suspension will be more "correct".  But of course it
also requires a lot more fine-tuning of these shocks - and
the quality must be top notch.  
Otherwise it gives nothing but trouble..

Look at the illustration of a traditional EUC in motion, am I right?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

32 minutes ago, Robse said:

Look at the illustration of a traditional EUC in motion, am I right?

I think your illustration is correct and understand the concept of having 4 shocks, however there is still one wheel that travels in one direction(that being up and forward like your illustration) so having 4 shocks isn't helping the problems since they cant act independently like a car would. Also as I've argued many times in the past ,to fully absorb a bump "correctly" the suspension has to travel back as well as up like most vehicle suspensions do. The wheel travel is still in the same direction as well as slightly tilted forward like in your illustration.

Edited June 24 by Punxatawneyjoe

[Rawnei]

But what problem are we trying to solve really? Suspension as we have it today with straight vertical movement evidently already works really well, why would it need to be changed? Why are we trying to reinvent that part of suspension what is the benefit?

From what I can see it's other design choices that are problematic such as wear, tear and debris affecting the sliding mechanism of wheels that uses an open system of bushings or plastic rollers, those things are solved by having the sliding mechanism enclosed and sealed from the outside environment.

[Rider1]

17 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

But what problem are we trying to solve really? Suspension as we have it today with straight vertical movement evidently already works really well, why would it need to be changed? Why are we trying to reinvent that part of suspension what is the benefit?

From what I can see it's other design choices that are problematic such as wear, tear and debris affecting the sliding mechanism of wheels that uses an open system of bushings or plastic rollers, those things are solved by having the sliding mechanism enclosed and sealed from the outside environment.

Well, having a suspension setup similar to the rear of a bike/motorcycle would be beneficial in terms of responsiveness and lowering the stress on the components, although it poses the problem of the tire moving forward and back relative to you and the frame (by design), resulting in unwanted acceleration and braking. The question would be whether those effects are negligible or not. But I think this was already discussed in a separate thread.

One huge advantage of this system would be the lack of any sliding mechanism, reducing it to only two bearings holding the swingarm, making it the ultimate weather-proof and maintenance-free solution. In some old KS factory tour video, one could see a prototype of such a suspension setup, I'm really sad KS seemingly didn't further develop it.

Back on the topic, I am afraid they chose this 4-slider-mechanism simply in order to be able to keep their design with the batteries in the middle and to be different from the other companies, because although it might be more sturdy, current EUCs proof that this isn't necessary. Even if KS are able to shave some weight and maybe even be on par with the Lynx, they would have been able to make it even lighter if they opted for a 2 stanchion design. Let's hope they don't try to bring the F-22 design down to even the small/light wheels (F16, F14).

[techyiam]

I am patiently waiting for Kingsong to release the F22 so that I can test out the concept of using 4 suspension struts, with one at each corner. This should make the chassis exceptionally rigid when compared to the current suspension designs. The closes design to this is Kingsong's own S22/Pro. And I don't encounter any wobbles of any kind on my S22.

Also the suspension on the S22 is working really well for me right now after considerable fine tuning. 

[Rawnei]

50 minutes ago, Rider1 said:

Well, having a suspension setup similar to the rear of a bike/motorcycle would be beneficial in terms of responsiveness and lowering the stress on the components, although it poses the problem of the tire moving forward and back relative to you and the frame (by design), resulting in unwanted acceleration and braking. The question would be whether those effects are negligible or not. But I think this was already discussed in a separate thread.

One huge advantage of this system would be the lack of any sliding mechanism, reducing it to only two bearings holding the swingarm, making it the ultimate weather-proof and maintenance-free solution. In some old KS factory tour video, one could see a prototype of such a suspension setup, I'm really sad KS seemingly didn't further develop it.

Back on the topic, I am afraid they chose this 4-slider-mechanism simply in order to be able to keep their design with the batteries in the middle and to be different from the other companies, because although it might be more sturdy, current EUCs proof that this isn't necessary. Even if KS are able to shave some weight and maybe even be on par with the Lynx, they would have been able to make it even lighter if they opted for a 2 stanchion design. Let's hope they don't try to bring the F-22 design down to even the small/light wheels (F16, F14).

Existing suspension solutions is already very responsive so I don't understand the problem really.

Maybe such a prototype just didn't work so well.

[Rider1]

3 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Existing suspension solutions is already very responsive so I don't understand the problem really.

Maybe such a prototype just didn't work so well.

I know, I just meant that it would theoretically be an advantage

Seems likely

[DavidB]

I don't mind the 4 stanchion design idea. It is the execution that is critical. The S18 has 4 which are only inches apart. They work and the wheel is only 23.7kg or so. Theoretically the extra longitudinal distance between them on the F22 should allow them to be lighter than Leaperkim's single, central Fastace fork. Everyone is surprised how well the Falcon forks/shocks work and they are less than 1/2 weight of Fastace (OK, less travel and maybe durability will be less).

This design appear to allow the motor to be dropped by removing the 4 bolts holding the lower ends of the stanchions/forks. It also allows the batteries to be in a single container per side.

Wondered about the swingarm idea myself but I guess KS tried and found the concept a dead end.

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, DavidB said:

I don't mind the 4 stanchion design idea. It is the execution that is critical. The S18 has 4 which are only inches apart. They work and the wheel is only 23.7kg or so. Theoretically the extra longitudinal distance between them on the F22 should allow them to be lighter than Leaperkim's single, central Fastace fork. Everyone is surprised how well the Falcon forks/shocks work and they are less than 1/2 weight of Fastace (OK, less travel and maybe durability will be less).

This design appear to allow the motor to be dropped by removing the 4 bolts holding the lower ends of the stanchions/forks. It also allows the batteries to be in a single container per side.

Wondered about the swingarm idea myself but I guess KS tried and found the concept a dead end.

I'm very doubtful about this, in general people don't seem to have that high standards when it comes to suspension, heck there's people out there loving the stock Master suspension which is completely horrible and they couldn't tell the difference if a wheel had degraded suspension performance due to dirt or wear, on the other hand the same people might not have a very demanding use case who knows, jumping up and down while standing still and seeing that it's "bouncy" might just be enough.

[DavidB]

Rawnei "In general people don't seem to have that high standards when it comes to suspension"

With you there. If they road some KYB, WP or Showa they would be shocked with what they were happy with before.

 

[The Brahan Seer]

What I'm hoping is that the 4 stanchion set up is more rigid and helps eliminate the kind of issue the Lynx has (although the Master looks pretty solid). But perhaps the Lynx has other issues not related to the suspension at all. See 3:19 for example in this vlog... 

 

[Rider1]

5 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

What I'm hoping is that the 4 stanchion set up is more rigid and helps eliminate the kind of issue the Lynx has (although the Master looks pretty solid). But perhaps the Lynx has other issues not related to the suspension at all. See 3:19 for example in this vlog... 

Wow, I take back what I said, maybe the 4 stanchion design is great (at least for hardcore racing). The reason the master is better is due to the fact that its tubes are mounted on top and on the bottom, like with every linkage-based suspension, while the Lynx' bottom part (where the motor is mounted) is literally floating in the air

[Rawnei]

58 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

What I'm hoping is that the 4 stanchion set up is more rigid and helps eliminate the kind of issue the Lynx has (although the Master looks pretty solid). But perhaps the Lynx has other issues not related to the suspension at all. See 3:19 for example in this vlog... 

 

Looks like the screws on the clamps are not properly torqued.