S16 (Pro) real range

[Magovec]

What is your experience with the real range of S16 and S16 Pro? The data sheet for Pro version claims 120km. In my case it is bullshit. Yes I was expecting less that this optimal-light-rider-20C-flat-surface optimal condition case but still it is worse that I expected. Yes, it is a strong torque wheel but range in my case is about 50km total maximum. And even for this I am talking about riding very gently, e.g. around 35kph. Otherwise I would get about 35km.

Whas is your experience? Do I have a faulty device? Is there a difference betwiin range of S16 and Pro version (having stronger motor). Or is this normal?

Edited April 10 by Magovec

[Paradox]

Can you view the individual battery voltages in the app?  Are they all near the same charge?  I would hope the range would be better too. 

[slippyfeet]

1 hour ago, Paradox said:

Can you view the individual battery voltages in the app?  Are they all near the same charge?  I would hope the range would be better too. 

Yes, and yes. 
The issue is that the motor is power hungry.  I'm 63kg (~140lbs) and I constantly burn 22+Wh/km according to the app.

- I managed 42km range From 100% --> 25 % battery, average speed 35km/h (top 52km/h).

I feel like there is 'software sag' in the firmware of this wheel. It's almost like the wheel is anticipating a 40 degree slope or a hard lean anytime I accelerate from a stop, voltage and battery percent drops immediately but holds at that constant dip until you stop again and release the load, to which volts and percentage ticks up a few notches again. All of this could indeed just be how an 84V architecture works to sustain such a high wattage wheel, I'm just giving my insight on how it feels from just riding it.

 

[Magovec]

When typing the original post I did wrong calculation. Today I re-measured all distances I rode with navigation and it was 28km (battery 92% > 14%) then charged for 42 minutes and then rode 14km and finished with 4%. So to sum up it is about 35km range for a full battery charge!  Very annoying.

Edited April 10 by Magovec

[Magovec]

4 hours ago, Paradox said:

Can you view the individual battery voltages in the app?  Are they all near the same charge?  I would hope the range would be better too. 

Yes, the BMS info seems pretty fine. All cells amost the same voltage (with expected very small differences). So far I had not noticed any faults, just it seems that the motor is extremely power hungry even not pushing it hard (which might be justifiable), but gliding 25-35kph around the city, flat sphalt just some small up and downs) and still be able to go maximum 40km range is very unpleasant discovery for me.

Edited April 10 by Magovec

[Frolic0415]

That's less range than a get on a 16x at full speed (45-50kph) which is around 60kms. Doesn't sound right, could the motor really be that hungry or is firmware faulty in some way?

Edited April 11 by Frolic0415

[daniel1234]

Could you post guys EUCworld trip record ? 

It sounds wierd ... it cannot be that bad. I would even ask reseller to check with kingsong.

I would check tyre pressure and Update FW. Even old s18 / 18x / 16x can do better.

[slippyfeet]

10 minutes ago, daniel1234 said:

Could you post guys EUCworld trip record ? 

It sounds wierd ... it cannot be that bad. I would even ask reseller to check with kingsong.

I would check tyre pressure and Update FW. Even old s18 / 18x / 16x can do better.

I don’t use EUCworld, but I’ve documented my experience quite extensively in the other thread here.

and yes, my 18XL does a lot better

[Magovec]

So far I had no issues like slippyfeet described earlier (connection lost to the battery pack etc.)  I am running the latest frimware (and BMS and "meter") according to the app.

Today I rode 12 km straight one way. Started at 88% battery and finished at 50%. Really bad performance. Now I am charging it and the second ride today I will measure in the app from the begining to see what the app says.

[Magovec]

After few more rides I am starting to have a slightly better feeling about this. The thing is the discrepancy between what percentage the wheel shows and the battery reality. Moreover, there is non linear "drain" of the batter while riding. It depends on what amount of charge you start the ride. I had 2 different cases. One was what I described here in this thread above - started not fully charged (92%) and this resulted in very low range. Second case was that I fully charged to 100% and then first approx 20% of battery was consumed way slower then the rest.

Thus my observation is that it is not the same, e.g. linear. For example 20% of battery consumtion in range 100%-80% can result in 15km drive but 20% of battery consumtion in range 60%-40% can result in 5km of drive.

The second observation is that the BMS (in this case the display on top of the weel) shows the actual charge, but when in still for several minutes it "regains" 4-5% back up.

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Magovec said:

The thing is the discrepancy between what percentage the wheel shows and the battery reality

Battery percentage reported from the wheel is a very simple proportional relation with battery voltage. Some ?3.15...3.3V? is 0% and some 4.1x is 100%. 

Such a relation is about true once the battery rested for some 15-30 minutes. During charging or burdening this number is extremely off.

Also your observation that there is more "charge" in the upper region than in the lower region is true. Especially as  100% is in reality some range from 4.1xV to some 4.2V (or what the cell gets actually charged by the charger)

EUCW and afair also darknesbot have some own charge percentage calculation to address these issues.

In table 2 at https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion#:~:text=Li-ion is fully charged,is about 2–3 hours. are some (exemplary) values shown for charged cell voltage and charge percent for cut off/saturation charge.

Edit: As above in the battery information remaining mAh are shown there could be some chance that the bms has an coulomb counter showing real Soc all the time?

Edited April 12 by Chriull

[Funky]

KS18XL here. I'm 280lbs and riding around 35kmh i got 65km from 100% down to 5%.

[DavidB]

Magovec, let us know the best you get out of it. 

My understanding is hub motors are most efficient under load. So if manufacturers put in a powerful motor but customer uses only a small part of that power for cruising around they are not very efficient.

Edited April 12 by DavidB

[Magovec]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

Battery percentage reported from the wheel is a very simple proportional relation with battery voltage. Some ?3.15...3.3V? is 0% and some 4.1x is 100%. 

Such a relation is about true once the battery rested for some 15-30 minutes. During charging or burdening this number is extremely off.

Also your observation that there is more "charge" in the upper region than in the lower region is true. Especially as  100% is in reality some range from 4.1xV to some 4.2V (or what the cell gets actually charged by the charger)

EUCW and afair also darknesbot have some own charge percentage calculation to address these issues.

In table 2 at https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion#:~:text=Li-ion is fully charged,is about 2–3 hours. are some (exemplary) values shown for charged cell voltage and charge percent for cut off/saturation charge.

Edit: As above in the battery information remaining mAh are shown there could be some chance that the bms has an coulomb counter showing real Soc all the time?

Agreed. I am aware (at least to meaningful extend) of mechanics behind the li-ion battery, which is why I normally would never charge it up to 100% but every time I use limiter or time-disconnect to limit the charging to max 85-90%. I used this for 3 years straigh with my 18XL, wchich does not have BMS (meaning user accessible).

On the other hand we have year 2024, so I would expect when there is smart BMS behind, thus the CPU knows exact voltage and state of every cell that it would calculate this for the user (such as you said darknessbot does). The user sees only the percentage and does not (and cannot) interfere with it. It is up to the manufacturer whether for security reason they decided if 4.12V or 4.18V is 100%. As a user I need to know what capacity left in order to plan accordingly whether to charge it or go to ride and have (meaningful) certainity that I will actually finish the ride.

[Magovec]

57 minutes ago, DavidB said:

Magovec, let us know the best you get out of it. 

My understanding is hub motors are most efficient under load. So if manufacturers put in a powerful motor but customer uses only a small part of that power for cruising around they are not very efficient.

I have a bit difficulty to read and understand the figure, but I guess that if I am am in the area of power around 1500W (50% of S16Pro) the efficiency is only around 30%. In other words it would have a small impact to battery consumption whether I smoothly glide on a flat street or push it hard. It would have some impact but very limited and even the gliding would consume a lot of energy. 

So far this would to me subjectively (not yet objectively backed up) fell like this.

[DavidB]

So many variables it is hard to get objective info. Your initial comments probably most valid. "and yes, my 18XL does a lot better" 

The EUC community will eventually rate it accurately from multiple users feedback. 

Edited April 14 by DavidB

[slippyfeet]

Ran some quick errands this morning, kept the speed around 45km/h. 18-19 miles using roughly 55% battery. Kingsong’s app always disconnects so some numbers vanish, while Relive’s “gps speed” is rather generous.

[Magovec]

This measurement of yours seems very similar to what I experience thus it is not a fault of my piece but we have to live with it. 
Being it the way that you drove 19 miles for 55% of battery so for the rest 45% you would go another approx 15 miles then ok but that is not true. According to what I described above and DavidB backed up by real figures the energy stored in a li-ion battery in the range of 100%-50% and 50%-0% is different so I guess that for those 45% left you would be able to go not 15 but 10 miles.

Nevertheless the thing is that I was used to 18XL battery and range which this is way worse. One have to plan a ride accordingly. Second I was used to charge 18XL only to about 85% to protect the battery and prolong its life. This cannot be done with S16. Here it is necessary to charge it to the point when the charger cuts off. In such case the battery is “reasonable” with mediocre range for such a small and (for today market) ligh suspension wheel (putting aside how long the battery will last and how many cycles it will sustain).

Edited April 14 by Magovec

[Magovec]

BTW slippyfeet, I am just curious, I see you had V12HT. V12 is from the begining advertised as a city wheel with long range. What was your real experience battery wise with it? I am not comparing it to S16, it is a different class of wheel but what about comparison to 18XL?

[slippyfeet]

54 minutes ago, Magovec said:

BTW slippyfeet, I am just curious, I see you had V12HT. V12 is from the begining advertised as a city wheel with long range. What was your real experience battery wise with it? I am not comparing it to S16, it is a different class of wheel but what about comparison to 18XL?

I actually think the V12HT is much closer to S16 in comparison than the 18XL.

I only had the V12HT for a week in 2022 and sold it because I really disliked the weight distribution on it, but to be fair I didn’t have pads. In retrospect it’s not too different from this S16 pro with the meaty tire and how weighty it feels (some people would refer to this as “planted”) but the toe blocks make a huge difference for me. I can’t speak for range as I didn’t correctly test it, but I remember it dropping just as fast while trying to maintain speed - It could be a placebo effect riding a wheel with a screen and seeing the percentage fall rapidly, but I do stand by my theory that these high torque motors are voltage hogs as they don’t coast as easily as thinner, more aerodynamic wheels.

 

[Magovec]

Interesting findings. I always thought of V12 as a non suspension high speed medium weight long range city wheel. But you are true that for example height of pedals is more like S16 rather then very low placed 18XL, which now when I can compare it is very different style of ride (and I must admit currently I prefer S16 in this aspect).

Edited April 14 by Magovec

[Magovec]

Today I did another ride to measure real performance. I did 3 rides over the day - 13, 18 and 13km = 44km in total. Started at 99% and finished at 8%. 

With gear and a backpack (laptop and stuff) I weight about 90kg. The road was combination of flat streets, some ascents and descents (a hill in the city). In terms of speed I was going mid-throttle (not gliding slow and economically but not pushing it to the limit).

This was my real trip I do from time to time. I leave you to make your conclusion out of it but comparing it to 18XL I had before the range is halved, which is bad. I expected about 60km from S16-type-of-wheel. I do hope KS will tweak the power consumption in FW in the future.

I am not saying S16/Pro is a bad wheel. Actually I like it - I wrote my impressions of it in a different topic but to me the battery (or better say - the consumption because the battery is almost the same as 18XL) is its weakest point.

Edited April 16 by Magovec

[slippyfeet]

1 hour ago, Magovec said:

I am not saying S16/Pro is a bad wheel. Actually I like it - I wrote my impressions of it in a different topic but to me the battery (or better say - the consumption because the battery is almost the same as 18XL) is its weakest point.

Yes yes. S16 pro is a good wheel when you don’t compare its negatives to another wheel’s positive.

It‘s meant to be bigger, faster, and stronger than all the prior 1_ S/X/L wheels. 

Newcomers will most likely enjoy it out the gate, while us riders with past experiences with Kingsong’s golden era will need an acceptance phase to temper some expectations that weren’t meant. But leaning into it (literally) on hilly streets is really fun.

[eucandoit]

I read a man (180 lbs) at Facebook who shared his range test. He claims to reach 59 kms. from %100 to %10 charge. If I could find the link I’ll share it here. 

[Funky]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:57 AM, Magovec said:

Second I was used to charge 18XL only to about 85% to protect the battery and prolong its life.

You know that charging to 80% - you actually are hurting the battery. (Because you don't really ever balance the cells.) Just saying.

I charge mine every second weekend to 100%. + 2-3hrs balancing. Normally battery is around 50% after two weeks of daily use. (18XL beeps slowly 6 times when it has finished "balancing" the cells.)

Edited April 17 by Funky