How do you counter steer, or is that necessary?

[skunkmonkey]

On my bike or motorcycle I need to counter steer in high speed turns. Do you counter steer on EUC's, and if so, how? I've only been riding EUC's for a day and a half, so I'm a long way from needing this info, but it ran through my head today as I was starting to master steering, and figured it would be good to practice.

[meepmeepmayer]

 

What do you mean by countersteering? That can mean doing a little wiggle in the other direction, which is necessary to initiate a turn, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering. Like this:

I tend to "wobble" in curves (a little countersteer movement regularly) instead of it being a smooth radius. Not sure if that is good or bad, it just happens to be how I ride. As for how, that's just the sideways balance that you hold on a EUC anyways - you just flick the EUC a little to the other side to initiate a countersteer.

If you mean something else, I assume it is good form to do on a EUC what is good form on a bike, e.g. shifting your weight to the outside of a curve instead of the inside, like mentioned here. At least if it makes sense to do that on a EUC. I have no idea about that. Would be cool to hear from you if you have experience with EUCs and bikes.

[rcgldr]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:28 PM, skunkmonkey said:

Do you counter steer on EUC's, and if so, how?

Yes, but many riders are unaware that they are doing this. The effort used by a rider to lean inwards coexists with an outwards torque exerted onto the EUC, which causes the EUC to tilt and steer outwards from under the rider, even if the rider is unaware of this. That outwards torque exerted onto the EUC coexists with the EUC exerting an inwards torque onto the rider (Newton third law pair of torques), so some of the leaning is due to the inwards torque the EUC exerts onto the rider.

Usually a rider doesn't have to think about this, and can just focus on leaning left or right without paying attention to what the EUC is doing. On my lightweight V8F, I sometimes deliberately use pedal pressure to counter-steer for a quicker response, but most of the time, I only think about leaning without paying attention to pedal or pad pressure.

However, once leaned, the rider has to consciously exert an inwards torque onto the EUC to tilt and steer the EUC in the direction of lean to control lean angle and the turn. Countersteering still applies once leaned, tilt the EUC more to lean less, tilt the EUC less to lean more. It's similar to a motorcycle, but instead of twisting the handlebars left | right, an EUC is tilted left | right. An EUC can also be twisted left | right to steer, which is more common at slow speeds. At higher speeds, a rider may twist at the waist to keep the upper torso from twisting much when carving.

The same counter-steering principle is true for accelerating | decelerating, the EUC is being decelerated | accelerated out from under the rider in order to lean the rider forwards | backwards. If the rider weighs significantly more than the EUC, the EUC moves more relative to the center of mass than the rider. For example, if sitting back to brake, it can feel like the rider is shoving the EUC forwards as opposed to feeling like the rider is moving backwards. In the opposite case, like 80 lb EUC Girl on a 115 lb V13, she's going to move relatively more than the V13.

The physics, both motorcycle and electric unicycle are double inverted pendulums. The EUC is free to pivot about the contact patch, and the rider is free to pivot about the EUC. In the case of a motorcycle, the rider has the option to not pivot about the motorcycle (not hang off or lean outwards), but even a single inverted pendulum requires the inverted pendulum base be moved in the opposite direction to lean the inverted pendulum before it can be accelerated (forwards, backwards, left, right). On an EUC, the rider has to pivot about the EUC, since the EUC tilt angle is not the same as the rider's lean angle except for some specific speed. At slow speed, the EUC is tilted more than the rider leans, at around 15 mph or so, the EUC is tilted a bit less than the rider leans, and at 35+ mph, the EUC is barely titled while the rider leans normally.

Edited August 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I tend to "wobble" in curves (a little countersteer movement regularly) instead of it being a smooth radius.

Most riders are smooth radius.

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If you mean something else, I assume it is good form to do on a EUC what is good form on a bike, e.g. shifting your weight to the outside of a curve instead of the inside, like mentioned here. At least if it makes sense to do that on a EUC. I have no idea about that. Would be cool to hear from you if you have experience with EUCs and bikes.

A motorcycle is steered by the handlebars, which is independent of the bike's lean angle, so the rider has the option to pivot inwards or outwards relative to the motorcycle. An EUC is steered by tilting the EUC, so the rider doesn't have a choice.

At low speed, the rider leans less than the EUC is tilted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqoNhGEhk2Y

At around 15 mph or so, the rider leans a bit more than the EUC is tilted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hWMwK3Cfs0&t=15s

At 35+ mph, the EUC is barely tilted, forcing the rider to hang off. Angular momentum is enough that the rider has to exert significant inwards force on the outside upper pad to force the EUC to tilt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyRxroEKHas&t=2635s

As for the video about motorcycles, for street riding, there's no need for the rider to lean inwards or outwards. The video is also wrong about traction being lost. In this case, if the rider is hanging off to the inside, the bike is more vertical, giving the bike more margin to recover from losing grip, like not scraping a pedal, and in the case of sport bikes, the tires have more contact surface on the sides than on the middle. Hanging off also puts some outwards pressure on the swing arm, stabilizing it when riding at the limits. If drifting on a bike, where the front tire has grip, but the rear tire is drifting | sliding, then it makes sense for the rider to stay upright. None of this applies to EUCs though.

Edited August 25, 2023 by rcgldr

[atdlzpae]

23 hours ago, skunkmonkey said:

On my bike or motorcycle I need to counter steer in high speed turns. Do you counter steer on EUC's, and if so, how? I've only been riding EUC's for a day and a half, so I'm a long way from needing this info, but it ran through my head today as I was starting to master steering, and figured it would be good to practice.

Don't worry about it. Just practice and let your brain handle it.

No child learns about counter-steering "theory" when riding a bicycle, it's unnecessary. Delegate it to your subconscious (cerebellum) and just enjoy riding.

After 1000km you'll just know how to handle pretty much every maneuver you need. Without ever "learning" it, just by riding.

Edited August 25, 2023 by atdlzpae

[skunkmonkey]

4 hours ago, rcgldr said:

I sometimes deliberately use pedal pressure to counter-steer for a quicker response, but most of the time, I only think about leaning without paying attention to pedal or pad pressure.

Thanks, that's kind of what I figured, but I wasn't sure. This is the first device I've ridden that didn't have handlebars.

 

@meepmeepmayer Counter steering refers to a technique (that most people do unconsciously on bikes/motorcycles) to help you to turn at high speeds. I don't know if you've ever ridden a motor cycle or not, but I can share my first experience to help illustrate the problem, and what counter steering does to help.
When I got my first motorcycle I learned how to balance, and then took off down the street having a blast. Eventually I got comfortable enough I thought I'd go on the freeway. When I came to my first tight turn I tried to turn my handlebars into the turn, but the gyroscopic effect of the wheels prevented me from turning the handlebars. I panicked and almost crashed. Fortunately the brakes worked great. I went home and asked my dad (who also rides motorcycles) what happened, and he explained that the wheels act as huge gyroscopes, and the faster that they turn, the harder they are to tilt off their axis. If you want to make a turn at high speeds you need to be able to lean into the turn, but in order to do that with the gyroscopic forces in play, you need to trick them by slightly turning the other direction first. This will cause your body to tip the direction that you really want to turn, and then you can turn the wheel the direction that you normally would throughout the turn. You just couldn't do that at first because the gyroscopic effect was stronger than the weight of your body.

The reason that most people do this unconsciously is that when you want to turn left for instance, you start to lean left, which puts pressure on the left handlebar (which adds a slight amount of countersteer since pushing left makes you turn right). This tips your body over to the left, and makes turning the handlebars left easier.

[skunkmonkey]

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I tend to "wobble" in curves (a little countersteer movement regularly) instead of it being a smooth radius. Not sure if that is good or bad, it just happens to be how I ride. As for how, that's just the sideways balance that you hold on a EUC anyways - you just flick the EUC a little to the other side to initiate a countersteer

@meepmeepmayer you shouldn't have to (nor should you) counter steer throughout a turn. It should only be necessary to help you tilt enough to start a turn. If you're wheel is wobbling through a turn I'd guess that either the wheel is out of balance, or your balance is off. I can't speak from the perspective of an EUC obviously since my top speed so far is 15mph, enough speed to start to practice counter steering, but not enough to really need it. I can only speak from the perspective of a motorcycle or a high speed scooter, but I assume the physics are the same (as @rcgldr seems to indicate.) Basically, you're only being successful at turning currently because your weight is significantly greater than the wheel. If you were to try the same turn at the same speed with a much heavier wheel, or faster with the same wheel, I suspect you would find yourself having extreme difficulty turning just like I did when I came to my first freeway turn on a motorcycle.

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, skunkmonkey said:

Counter steering refers to a technique (that most people do unconsciously on bikes/motorcycles) to help you to turn at high speeds.  ... gyroscopic effect ... the reason that most people do this unconsciously is that when you want to turn left for instance, you start to lean left, which puts pressure on the left handlebar

The wheels on a motorcycle act as gyroscopes, where angular momentum resists any change in angle. Gyroscopic effect refers to the delayed response to a torque, where the response to a torque reaches a maximum about 90 degrees later, which is why the cyclic (pitch and roll) controls on a helicopter are typically advanced by 90 degrees.

Steering response on a tilted EUC: An EUC will steer inwards when tilted due to camber effect. The amount of reaction depends on the tire: a wider tire is more responsive than a thinner tire, a street tire is more responsive than a knobby tire. Wrong Way made a video about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsXW4OKnmWc

Steering response on a tilted (leaned) bike or motorcycle: A bike will steer inwards when tilted due to steering geometry, typically trail. Trail is the distance from where a virtually extended pivot axis of the front tire intercepts the pavement back to where the front tire contact patch is. The contact patch pushes down onto the pavement coexistent with the pavement pushing up on the contact patch. When a bike is tilted (leaned), the pavement pushes up on the contact patch behind the extended pivot axis, steering the front tire into direction of tilt (lean). The amount of  reaction depends on the amount of trail.

Similar to what I posted about EUCs, on a motorcycle when a rider leans inwards, this causes the bike to lean and steer outwards from under the center of mass, leaning the bike and rider inwards. This is an indirect form of counter-steering, allowing a rider to ride hands free. This is insufficient for turning on sport bikes with a small amount of trail or steering dampers (used to prevent wobbles). In this video, a second set of fixed handlebars is used to eliminate rider induced handlebar movement. A sport bike with a small amount of trail (but no steering dampers) was used to demonstrate that trying to turn by leaning would be hopeless on such a bike, resulting in only a mild change in direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng&t=31s

On sport bikes like that, the rider has to consciously counter-steer in order to turn. As I posted earlier, once leaned, steer inwards more to lean less, steer inwards less to lean more. Another issue that riders will not experience on EUCs is that a high speeds, around 100 mph, angular momentum of the front tire reduces the steering response to lean angle to near zero: so small that it is imperceptible. At moderate speeds, if a rider is centered and relaxes on the handlebars, the bike will straighten up. At high speeds, the bike will tend to hold the current lean angle, requiring the rider to consciously steer inwards to reduce lean angle or straighten up.

Most experienced motorcycle riders that counter-steer will push on the inside handle and pull on the outside handle with equal effort to counter-steer. Riding a motorcycle properly is like flying an airplane, except the lean (roll) controls are reversed due to countersteering. A rider just focuses on adjusting lean angle to control turning radius. The exception is when riding at slow speed, where steering is used for balance, similar to twisting an EUC for balance at slow speed.

Edited August 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, skunkmonkey said:

since my top speed so far is 15mph, enough speed to start to practice counter steering, but not enough to really need it.

Counter-steering is always needed, but as I posted above, many (or most?) riders are unaware that it occurs. 

As an experiment, while standing on solid ground, with your feet separated somewhat, try alternately leaning left and right by alternately lifting your left and right foot. When you lift your left foot with only your right foot supporting your weight you lean left and vice versa. Now imaging doing something similar on an EUC, you reduce pressure on your left foot, which requires increased pressure on your right foot to support your weight. This tilts the EUC to the right, which will steer to the right out from under you leaning you left. It doesn't feel like counter-steering because it is similar to how you balance when standing on solid ground or when walking.

Edited August 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

I was about to reply with explanations and examples, but @rcgldr beat me to each and every point I was going to make! I still want to emphasize the key points:

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Yes, but many riders are unaware that they are doing this.

Exactly. Wheels (and their tires) are not heavy enough and we’re not riding fast enough to have enough gyroscopic effect to having to concentrate on counter-steering.

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

The same counter-steering principle is true for accelerating | decelerating

This too! And based on the discussions we’ve had here during the years, it seems that very few people understand how this behavior applies to acceleration and braking as well.

2 hours ago, rcgldr said:

As an experiment, while standing on solid ground, with your feet separated somewhat, try alternately leaning left and right by alternately lifting your left and right foot.

 

2 hours ago, rcgldr said:

It doesn't feel like counter-steering because it is similar to how you balance when standing on solid ground or when walking.

Great examples!

[rcgldr]

Some videos may help to understand counter-steering and turning on an EUC.

This is a short clip of me weaving on my V8F, where the V8F is clearly moving outwards, while my helmet doesn't move much as I lean side to side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjD9sWQHoSA&t=45s

A video of Chooch Tech around 25 mph or so on a 16X. The selfie stick provides a rider's perspective of what happens. The 16X is doing most of the movement, left | right when he's carving, front | back when he's accelerating or braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GdkBSaoAII&t=25s

Things change a bit at higher speeds on a heavy EUC. Video of Dawn Champion on a V13 at around 35 mph. As I posted before, when she leans inwards, she exerts an outwards torque onto the V13, which coexists with the V13 exerting a inwards torque on her (Newton third law pair of torques). The angular momentum of the motor, wheel, and tire is great enough that the resistance to being tilted outwards results in a significant part of the inwards leaning being due to the inwards reaction torque from the V13. The V13 still moves outwards, but less than a lighter EUC at a slower speed would for the same amount of lean. Once she's leaned, she has to exert significant inwards force on the outer upper pad and outwards force on the outer pedal to  generate enough inwards torque to force the V13 to tilt inwards to make the turns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyRxroEKHas&t=2635s

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by rcgldr

[skunkmonkey]

@rcgldr Yeah I love watching Chooch Tech ride. He seems so smooth, and his posture seems to allow for effortless (once you have the quads built up) riding over any surface. His upper body seems to almost float above his legs. I'm trying to work on improving my turning techniques. I've found a few that work, but I'm not sure if there's a "best practice" approach?
Initially I tried just pushing down on the inside pedal. This worked, but it made for very jerky, awkward turns.

Later I tried twisting my upper torso into the turn. This worked, but it was hard to make sharper turns.

My current approach that seems to work the best so far, is to move my outside knee forward slightly and press against the EUC, so that it begins to turn, at the same time I lean into the turn. If I need to make the turn sharper, I press down on the inside pedal a little more. This approach seems to provide the most control so far. I have a little trouble with wobbles when I come out of the turns. I'm guessing that's because I'm quickly returning to straight after doing lots of tight circles, so the wheel is fighting the shift in angular momentum. I've noticed that foot placement on the pedals makes a HUGE difference in turning capability. The best positioning I've found so far is to have my toes off the front of the pedals. If I don't, and my toes are completely on the pedal, then it requires a lot more effort both to accelerate, and to turn.

Is there a best practice technique for turning, particularly the sharp turns, like a 90 degree side walk turn?

Edited August 27, 2023 by skunkmonkey

[rcgldr]

26 minutes ago, skunkmonkey said:

Turning

I have a V8F, and I can turn with neither leg touching the upper pads, just using the pedals, or both legs touching the upper pads, or just the outer leg touching the upper pad. I also turn with or without turning my upper torso. I'm on a V8F, and I limit my speed to 18 mph (GPS) since I don't trust it at 20 mph and at that speed and on a 35 lb V8F, the turning method doesn't matter much. Using pedals only is the quickest way to tilt steer the V8F.

In one of Wrong Way's videos, he does a 180 on a wide sidewalk using momentum method: tilt EUC inwards, but also twist upper torso inwards while going straight, then twist legs inwards to make a sharp turn. The stunt people do this or touch the inside foot to the ground to do a spin on an EUC. I can do a 90 degree turn on a sidewalk intersection by just tilting my V8F, so I haven't learned how to do a momentum turn.

Edited August 27, 2023 by rcgldr

[skunkmonkey]

@rcgldr Thanks for your double pendulum analysis. I didn't really get it at the time, but today I decided to follow some advice from another EUC rider, and learn to ride off-road. I fell, a lot, and took a pretty good tumble once, but was uninjured since I wear full protective gear. I then decided that I needed to learn to turn faster to better dodge obstacles, so I analyzed Chooch Tech's stance when riding smaller EUC's, and decided to emulate that, keeping my feet, shins, and knees firmly planted, but letting everything above the knees swing loose while slightly bent at the knees.

My arms ended up naturally swinging like a pendulum as I practiced carving, and this massively improved my turning capability. It virtually eliminated the wobbles that I would frequently get, and if I did get them then as long as I didn't panic, I could just carve them out.

I returned to the off-road trail, and did infinitely better than before. Hills are still a bit tricky, but I think as soon as I get some power pads that will be greatly improved. Right now I have to grip with my knees, and bumps can easily throw that grip off.

An added benefit of this off-road excursion is that my balance has improved enough that I can now self-start without a pole or wall. It's not graceful, and I have to crouch significantly, but I can do it fairly reliably. I still can't ride one footed though lol.

[mrelwood]

What a magnificent progress! Off-roading is indeed one of the best ways to improve one’s riding control. And it’s great fun!

2 hours ago, skunkmonkey said:

Hills are still a bit tricky

Make sure you are standing far enough forward:

 

[skunkmonkey]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Make sure you are standing far enough forward:

Thank you so much for that video! I had seen several videos where they said to make sure your toes hang off the front, and I tried that and it did immediately make my feet able to ride for over an hour without pain, whereas before I would feel pain within 5-10 minutes. I didn't know why it worked though. I really appreciated the video explaining the why behind the solution. That will help tremendously when I buy honeycomb pedals later on if they are a different size.

[rcgldr]

27 minutes ago, skunkmonkey said:

I had seen several videos where they said to make sure your toes hang off the front

The point of his video is to center your feet (balls and heels of feet equal distance from edges of pedals), as opposed to centering your shoes. I've also seen feet centered described as front of toes and back of heels equal distant from edges of pedals, which for most people would be about 1/4 inch or so back of balls and heels centered, not much difference. Whether or not your toes hang off depends on shoe size and pedal size. 

[alcatraz]

Shoving the wheel around is a better way to look at it instead of leaning. (because the rider is heavier than the wheel)

To quickly produce a left lean you shove the wheel right, and vice versa. Same applies to acceleration and braking. If that's "counter"-anything then so be it. 

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, rcgldr said:

which for most people would be about 1/4 inch or so back of balls and heels centered, not much difference.

That would mean that their toes are very very short. 

[rcgldr]

8 hours ago, rcgldr said:

I've also seen feet centered described as front of toes and back of heels equal distant from edges of pedals, which for most people would be about 1/4 inch or so back of balls and heels centered

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

That would mean that their toes are very very short. 

Depends on what is considered the average center of balance when standing on solid ground between ball and heel of feet: the average center of pressure of the heel and the average center of pressure of the ball of foot are when a person is standing. In my case, I tried moving my feet forward a bit to reduce calf strain, but that didn't help much. What did help a lot was switching to hi-top hiking boots which have a lot of ankle support that generates a significant amount of the ankle torque as depicted in the image below when my knees are bent.

(Do a search for postural sway center of mass - images). 

A typical example:

Edited August 28, 2023 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

11 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Because the rider is heavier than the wheel

Not always. EUC Girl weighs about 80 lbs, and can ride a 115 lb V13. She has a youtube page with two shorts of her on the V13 and videos of her on other heavy EUCs.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by rcgldr