KingSong S19 vs. Alternatives

[Saboteur_ZA]

mod edit: this has been split from the S19 topic.

This wheel has been described as a beginner/entry level wheel in some reviews, while KS themselves refer to this as a city commuter. Just wondering whether this wheel could be good for offroad and trails? I looked at the specs, and it can handle 40 degree grades. The T4 which is said to be a good offroad wheel only does 25 degrees (unless the specs are wrong on the dealer websites, but I did check more than one). Not sure that makes sense to me, surely that matters quite a bit for trails? I am looking for a suspension wheel that I can also take offroad. I understand that durability is one factor, and I assumed the grade would also be important, but what else should I be looking for?

Edited August 23, 2023 by meepmeepmayer

[meepmeepmayer]

59 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

I looked at the specs, and it can handle 40 degree grades. The T4 which is said to be a good offroad wheel only does 25 degrees (unless the specs are wrong on the dealer websites, but I did check more than one).

These kind of numbers are totally meaningless, and (in general) I'm sure most of them are made up/pulled out of mostly nothing. There is no difference between a wheel going up a 40 degree incline or a 25 degree incline but with a heavier rider (so the same effort is needed). The very notion that you could measure the max incline that a certain wheel can go is crazy, I wouldn't know on what such a statement could possibly be based. Please ignore manufacturer grade numbers.

There are two limitations in reality:

• A physical limit where an incline too steep simply is not possible because a part of the wheel (like a mud guard or the lower corner of the battery box) physically hits the ground. Just look at the wheel in question, and you see whether this will never be a problem for you, or whether something like going down stairs might make something hit the ground (e.g. the EX30 has quite low and far protruding stuff on it).
• How much "oomph" the wheel has and how real riders' experience tells it behaves. Does the firmware limit the power in a way so some inclines aren't really working out as one wants, or will the firmware just let you lean until you overpower the wheel? Is the perceived torque good (braking and acceleration)? And so on.
  Only experience from buyers will tell how "good" a wheel is for something, when they give their experiences.

Now, whether the S19 is a "good" offroad wheel will depend on what exactly that is supposed to mean.

People were riding offroad with any wheel that exists, before suspensions even were a thing. You can surely ride offroad with a 19 inch tire and suspension on a wheel like the S19. Maybe the tire is a bit too big and/or the S19 will be a bit too sluggish or heavy (in comparison to other options), but probably it's nicely balanced and you can offroad it just as well as any other wheel with the same tire size. The more demands you make for an "offroad" wheel (like making jumps, being lighter so it is easier to maneuver around, robust, elaborate suspension, ...), the more you can argue whether a certain wheel is "good" for what you want.

Wheels are allrounders, there's no such thing as an "offroad wheel" in that you need one to go offroad. It's when you demand more (whatever exactly that is) that some wheel will be better than others, or simply more fun in that situation.

As for the S19, wait for real rider's experience how it behaves offroad in comparison to other wheels. Then you know how "good" it will be for that. I fully expect it to be a competent wheel with a great suspension, and certainly good enough for the offroad romp once in a while.

(The real difference between the T4 and S19 is the tire diameter. A smaller tire (T4) will always be more zippy, as one might enjoy offroads, than a bigger tire (S19).)

[Saboteur_ZA]

@meepmeepmayer Thanks for your considered reply, really very helpful. Now I know what to look out for. Also glad to understand the appeal of the T4, was not really considering this wheel, but now it is in the running for me. Hopefully all the original issues are worked out now!  

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Also glad to understand the appeal of the T4, was not really considering this wheel, but now it is in the running for me. Hopefully all the original issues are worked out now!

It's pretty cheap, too. If you get the latest version, I don't think there are any issues with it. For more money, there's the Patton/Commander Mini/Extreme/upcoming IM Adventure and even the S16 (low price!) with the same tire size as the T4. Great choice of wheels in this class (16 + suspension).

The S19 has a bigger tire. That seems to be the most popular tire size among enthusiasts (well until now all the peak performance wheels were this tire size), but it's a bit different kind of riding I guess. You need to lean in more to get the same as from a 16 inch wheel. You can extrapolate from your 16X if you could live with a little less directly reacting wheel but a more comfortable/more stable tire that's easier to ride fast.

Edited August 22, 2023 by meepmeepmayer

[Saboteur_ZA]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

For more money, there's the Patton/Commander Mini/Extreme/upcoming IM Adventure.

Was interested in the Patton because generally opinions were favourable and quality seemed good. But 39kg just seems too much weight. Maybe my opinion would change if I have a 32 to 35kg wheel and get used to that first. I've been waiting quite a while for these 16 inch wheels, keen to upgrade. But each time there's a new wheel, yet another one is announced and I keep waiting...  in case something better comes along. But now I'm tired of waiting. Don't even feel like waiting for the Adventure. Going to test ride T4, S19, S22 this weekend and choose from there. 

[techyiam]

44 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Going to test ride T4, S19, S22 this weekend and choose from there.

If you typically don't have to lift up or carry your wheel, I would recommend test riding the Patton too. The Patton is a really easy wheel to ride for many people. If you can ride the S22, you should easily be able to ride the Patton too.

Edited August 22, 2023 by techyiam

[Saboteur_ZA]

25 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I would recommend test riding the Patton too. If you can ride the S22, you should easily be able to ride the Patton too.

Hmm, it can't hurt to try it (well, it probably could if I can't hold that weight). No idea if I can ride the S22 either for that matter, but I will try! My 16x only weighs 24kg, so all of these new wheels will be quite a step up in weight.

[litewave]

I was really concerned about the weight of the S22 at +-75lbs, but you get used to it. The only real challenge at first was not letting the wheel fall over when stopped (I accidentally let mine fall over once), which is just a matter of technique. The S22 is very wide, but this is also something you get used to after a week or so. The first few times you try to ride it, you may not like it, but it's really not an issue [for me, at least]. Hopefully, the wheel you will be testing has pads at the top of the battery box to prevent the edge from digging into your legs.

see also this post: 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by litewave

[litewave]

1 hour ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Was interested in the Patton because generally opinions were favourable and quality seemed good. But 39kg just seems too much weight. Maybe my opinion would change if I have a 32 to 35kg wheel and get used to that first. I've been waiting quite a while for these 16 inch wheels, keen to upgrade. But each time there's a new wheel, yet another one is announced and I keep waiting...  in case something better comes along. But now I'm tired of waiting. Don't even feel like waiting for the Adventure. Going to test ride T4, S19, S22 this weekend and choose from there. 

I think all in the new class of wheels in the 65-85lb range (S16,19,22; Patton; Adventure) except the T4 would be great wheels for you.

Edited August 22, 2023 by litewave

[mrelwood]

52 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

No idea if I can ride the S22 either for that matter, but I will try! My 16x only weighs 24kg, so all of these new wheels will be quite a step up in weight.

If/when you get to try any of the new heavier wheels, try them in medium mode instead of the hard mode. The medium will help in getting the heavier wheels to accelerate and brake.

 The Inmotion Adventure has quite a bit going for it, they have really thought this one out. It’s being launched on Sep 1st, although it will take months until it’s available in western countries.

 If you don’t have to lift your wheel up the stairs or into a car trunk often, you might not need to be afraid of the heavier weight. They are still all designed for riding, so while they will need a different approach than a 16X, you will get used to them.

 For me the bigger issue is their width at the top of the wheel’s body. They are all wide, and the width is the same at the top as at the bottom, so you’ll need to figure out a way to ride with your knees pointing outward. More than that, most of them have a sharp edge against your leg, some more than others. So it does at least require some getting used to, or mods to help with the sharp edge.

[Hellkitten]

1 hour ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Hmm, it can't hurt to try it (well, it probably could if I can't hold that weight). No idea if I can ride the S22 either for that matter, but I will try! My 16x only weighs 24kg, so all of these new wheels will be quite a step up in weight.

I started on a v11 and have ridden the patton and s22 a good amount. Both felt very natural to transition to. I was expecting a much harder time on foreign wheels. You should try them, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. 

[Saboteur_ZA]

1 hour ago, litewave said:

I think all in the new class of wheels in the 65-85lb range (S16,19,22; Patton; Adventure) except the T4 would be great wheels for you.

Thanks, definitely keen to try the Patton now as well. Just curious why you believe the T4 would be a bad choice?

[litewave]

Just now, Saboteur_ZA said:

Thanks, definitely keen to try the Patton now as well. Just curious why you believe the T4 would be a bad choice?

There have been several reports of problems with it on this forum and YouTube. Maybe Begode have rectified them - I don't know. For me, it's also the aesthetics. However, I do love my homely-looking pocket rocket MCM5v2 

[Saboteur_ZA]

23 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If/when you get to try any of the new heavier wheels, try them in medium mode instead of the hard mode. The medium will help in getting the heavier wheels to accelerate and brake.

 If you don’t have to lift your wheel up the stairs or into a car trunk often, you might not need to be afraid of the heavier weight.

Thanks for this advice. Hopefully the dealer allows me to mess about with these settings. One of my concerns with a heavier wheel is the braking, more so than the accelerating! I don't need to carry the wheel upstairs, but do need to lift it into the car from time to time. I am bit intrigued by the Adventure but by the time batch 2 is out, will be too long to wait for me. These wheels have been a long time coming!

[Saboteur_ZA]

17 minutes ago, Hellkitten said:

I started on a v11 and have ridden the patton and s22 a good amount. Both felt very natural to transition to. I was expecting a much harder time on foreign wheels. You should try them, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. 

Thanks for that encouragement. I will just have to be realistic. A little demo ride won't be enough time to feel comfortable on these wheels. But will hopefully be enough for me to make the right choice out of these.

[litewave]

Fwiw, the braking distance on the S22 was much more than I expected, but I'm using a cheap set of pads from an Etsy seller that are not dialed in yet. I'm confident I can do hard braking in the not-too-distant future. I have heard the S19 has better braking; probably the S16 as well.

[Hellkitten]

39 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Thanks for that encouragement. I will just have to be realistic. A little demo ride won't be enough time to feel comfortable on these wheels. But will hopefully be enough for me to make the right choice out of these.

I semi disagree. I think you’ll find them easier to ride then you’re giving yourself credit for. Both are very well balanced user friendly. The patton has some of the best acceleration and braking on any wheel I’ve tried. It has some of the highest torque out there currently. The s22 has terrible braking and almost every rider adds extended sections to the battery case to add better third party pads to help mitigate that. 
 

If I were to pick one of them I’d take the patton any day. But that’s my personal opinion, don’t let my preference sway you. Try them both! 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Hellkitten

[meepmeepmayer]

I put this discussion into its own thread. It's certainly S19 related, but was maybe a but too much for the S19 topic. But in here there is no such thing as too much.

12 hours ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Going to test ride T4, S19, S22 this weekend and choose from there. 

This is a dream situation, being able to test ride all the wheels you consider! (They already have an S19 to test? Wow!)

Just go by how they look and feel (looks, braking, acceleration, ergonomics and weight, etc.) and maybe you'll suddenly have a clear favorite. Honestly, all your options are good.

The big difference will probably be tire size classes - T4, Patton, ... (12 inch rim = "16" inch tires) vs. S19, S22, ... (14 inch rim = "18-20" inch tires).

9 hours ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

A little demo ride won't be enough time to feel comfortable on these wheels. But will hopefully be enough for me to make the right choice out of these.

I do think only a few seconds of test riding can be enough to get an idea if a wheel is for you or whether you don't like it. Some wheels may be an acquired taste, but some might just feel better right away.

[Saboteur_ZA]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I put this discussion into its own thread.

This is a dream situation, being able to test ride all the wheels you consider! (They already have an S19 to test? Wow!)

Thank you for moving this out. I was feeling quite guilty, realizing that was not the place for my musings and questions about my new wheel! But it was unintentional... one question led to another... Regardless, I am grateful for all the helpful answers and advice. And yes, I was very surprised that they have the S19 on hand for testing. They don't have the Commander Mini though, but that's ok.

[meepmeepmayer]

Let us know how your trip to EUC-Disneyland went! I'm not envious, I'm telling you, absolutely not! 

[Saboteur_ZA]

Thought I'd provide an update on trying out some of the wheels. For context (or in my defence), my first wheel was the KS14M, which I traded in after 50km for the 16x. Got 2015km on the 16x but have never ridden any other wheel, or ridden with power pads. So first I got to try the S19, all shiny and new. I couldn't mount the wheel! Because the pads were in the way, and on top of that the wheel had so much inertia, being heavier than I'm used to. After a few unsuccessful attempts I asked to remove the pads, at least one obstacle out the way. A few more attempts and I got going. Really amazed me how much was required to get it going. I know someone mentioned changing ride mode settings would be a good idea, but I didn't have that option. Next weird moment was trying to turn on this thing. When I angled the wheel to turn, that was fine, but trying to get the wheel upright again was a battle. I also had a scary moment when on one turn, the wheel kind of held into that angle and line and it was really hard to wrestle it back under control. As for the suspension, it was a very floaty sensation. I guess not feeling all the feedback from the road is the point of suspension but just felt it was too much. None of this is a reflection on the wheel, my own lack of experience with suspension and heavier wheels, and inability to adjust settings. I figured I could learn to like it, just wanted to buy my first suspension wheel. Didn't want to try Patton after that, figured that much weight is a bridge too far. Almost didn't want to try S22, knowing it was (slightly) heavier and bigger. But since I was there... They brought out the S22 (minus the pads), and I hopped on and rode away with no issue! Accelerating and braking felt much easier, even at 20 inches, it made me think of the responsiveness of my little 16x. Cornering and handling felt really nice too, I was immediately comfortable. Preferred the suspension too, which felt more stiff but made the wheel easier to control. Really didn't expect to like that wheel so much! I believe that will be my choice. Getting my 16x appraised for trade in. The new wheels like the Extreme and the V14 may be something I look at in another year or so. Right now I want something that has been through most of the initial problems.

[mrelwood]

Now that’s an interesting post! I’m sure your experience is the polar opposite of what most of us would’ve expected.

I assume you don’t know which ride mode the S22 was at either?

Edited August 26, 2023 by mrelwood

[Saboteur_ZA]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m sure your experience is the polar opposite of what most of us would’ve expected.

I assume you don’t know which ride mode the S22 was at either?

I'm aware that jumping on these wheels without knowing the settings could well have influenced the outcome, maybe even led me to the wrong impression. But that doesn't change the instinctual feeling of affinity I had with the S22 Pro. The staff said that people had really liked the S19, even the stock pads. When I go back for the appraisal, I will ask more about the settings and do another test ride on them both. But my mind is pretty set on the S22 Pro.