Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[Paul g]

  The battery pack of electric bicycles are usually much smaller then that of an electric wheel. It is easy to have bike packs filled with foam as the bike has two wheels, it is not the same for wheels. A motorcycle can weigh 250kg, not an issue.

[RagingGrandpa]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

How were you envisioning a rider making use of this?

I think the EUC is not safe without all 4 packs installed... so does it mean swapping the full set of 4, to extend range quickly? 
Would a person ever have a reason to own 6 packs, or a non-multiple of 4? 
And then why is recharging packs individually helpful? Shouldn't they be recharged as one unit, with one power supply, instead of 4 independent supplies?

Curious, thx

[Punxatawneyjoe]

9 hours ago, Paul g said:

fire resistant foam inside the battery packs do not make the battery fire proof

Where did you get this information? I was always under the impression the v13 batteries are potted, and it certainly doesn't look or act like foam. In the video he pushes on it with a screwdriver. Looks to me like potting gel.

[Paul g]

    There are different polymers used in battery packs by different manufacturers. I do not know exactly what resin InMotion uses, but they have a similar role as the polyurethane resin that is usually utilised in car batteries.

[Paul g]

29 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Where did you get this information? I was always under the impression the v13 batteries are potted, and it certainly doesn't look or act like foam. In the video he pushes on it with a screwdriver. Looks to me like potting gel.

       That foam used in cars, for example, is not quite what you would expect as a “foam”- something squishy. It is rather tough and difficult to break apart.

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

How were you envisioning a rider making use of this?

I think the EUC is not safe without all 4 packs installed... so does it mean swapping the full set of 4, to extend range quickly? 
Would a person ever have a reason to own 6 packs, or a non-multiple of 4? 
And then why is recharging packs individually helpful? Shouldn't they be recharged as one unit, with one power supply, instead of 4 independent supplies?

Curious, thx

    I have a feeling that the max speed of the wheel will go down with the battery capacity available just as when the battery level goes to 40% the max speed is lowered by the software (on some wheels). I also put myself some questions about the use of these envisioned battery swaps. Battery swaps are a lot more common in Chinese car industry and they might have contributed to this vision InMotion has about batteries. I do think it will be quite useful, but maybe not in all the ways InMotion thinks. We have swapping batteries in tools and you can use the same battery packs to power al your tools (if they are compatible, or from the same manufacturer). If InMotion will make quality wheels I can see myself buying multiple wheels and using only four packs.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Paul g

[Punxatawneyjoe]

2 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

How were you envisioning a rider making use of this?

I'm thinking that since the adventure can run on just one pack, maybe if i wanted to extend my range and if was wealthy. Maybe have one of these chargers in my home with a few batteries at full charge. Bring 2 with me in a backpack. Or if i was using my EUC as a business, like a local guy is (delivering anything he can carry.) in town for $5. Maybe have the charger pictured with 4 pack at full, you could cycle them and keep going. Or maybe if you wanted to go on a deep woods Adventure.... Bring 4 packs with you and a few tools, double your range.

[dimos15]

6 hours ago, Paul g said:

  The battery pack of electric bicycles are usually much smaller then that of an electric wheel. It is easy to have bike packs filled with foam as the bike has two wheels, it is not the same for wheels. A motorcycle can weigh 250kg, not an issue.

On an euc the chances of crashing are 20+ times higher than on a motorcycle. You need something that holds the batteries in place. Also potting helps with cooling the batteries and extends their lifetime. And i don't think that most of the weight in the v13 comes from the potting material. From the photos i've seen they have a lot more copper in the motor compared to other wheels. So by potting you reduce the fire hazard, you add rigidity and protection to the batteries and you extend their lifetime. It is a no brainer for me

[Uras]

4 hours ago, dimos15 said:

On an euc the chances of crashing are 20+ times higher than on a motorcycle

Not in my experience; I would say it's the inverse of that. That would include bikes too (mtb mostly). Euc is my first non 2 wheel mode of transport / recreation.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Uras

[CrabChampion]

13 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

since the adventure can run on just one pack,

So every pack is 134.4v? That means every pack is running in parallel vs on begode they are running the packs 2 and 2 in parallel. Battery configuration is still a 32s4p, but the way the cells are built is different.

13 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Bring 2 with me in a backpack

This wouldnt work if you swap in 2 fresh 134v packs when your wheel is starting to run low. You need the battery packs to all have similar voltage when plugging in to prevent an arc from the difference in voltage. The only quick swap you can do is replacing all 4 packs at the same time, all at the same voltage

[UPONIT]

16 hours ago, Paul g said:

   This problem of gas dilation it is solvable by having a dilation bladder inside the battery pack (plus a water absorbent like silica gel bag inside the pack itself). They had that in the WW2 in the Mustangs so that air doesn’t mix with gasoline vapours in the tanks 😂

I don't think that's an easier solution. Designing a properly sized/shaped bladder, silica eventually swells as it absorbs, a thousand other things. OR do what the people with experience designing and making EVs have done: pot the batteries in a proper resin. 

 

9 hours ago, dimos15 said:

On an euc the chances of crashing are 20+ times higher than on a motorcycle. You need something that holds the batteries in place. Also potting helps with cooling the batteries and extends their lifetime. And i don't think that most of the weight in the v13 comes from the potting material. From the photos i've seen they have a lot more copper in the motor compared to other wheels. So by potting you reduce the fire hazard, you add rigidity and protection to the batteries and you extend their lifetime. It is a no brainer for me

I don't think those crash "statistics" are remotely true. But what you say about potting is true. Plus what the video talking head says about expansion/contraction bringing moist air into the battery chamber, etc.

The potting polymer can't add more than a couple pounds to the weight. 

[dimos15]

7 hours ago, UPONIT said:

I don't think those crash "statistics" are remotely true.

I am taking all my crash statistics from chooch tech youtube channel

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by dimos15

[UPONIT]

10 hours ago, dimos15 said:

I am taking all my crash statistics from chooch tech youtube channel

 

Well that explains it. 

It's one of those "statistics" that feels like it could be true... But falls apart easily. ( From what source would you gather the data on EUC crashes? Define "crash.")

A similar "fact" is: of cars, bikes and motorcycles, motorcycles are most likely to cause death. Feels right, but I've never seen any firsthand data.

Edited October 21, 2023 by UPONIT

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

 

A similar "fact" is: of cars, bikes and motorcycles, motorcycles are most likely to cause death. Feels right, but I've never seen any firsthand data.

  It is called accident statistics and any civilised country has one. The motorcycle accidents are more severe then car and bikes, example UK:

      Source:     https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80d35640f0b62302695b61/motorcyclist-casualties-2013-data.pdf

    

[DavidB]

Sad fact is most deaths are caused by " I didn't see him" car drivers.

Don't forget you are 17 times more likely to killed as a pedestrian. Walking is so dangerous!

Edited October 22, 2023 by DavidB

[techyiam]

8 hours ago, DavidB said:

Sad fact is most deaths are caused by " I didn't see him" car drivers.

I have to say, riding in bike lanes on the side of major roads is much, much likely to get hit by a "I didn't see him" car driver than riding a motorcycle. It is already bad being on a motorcycle. But on a PEV in a bike lane can amount to committing suicide. Around here, the bike lanes are empty 99% of the time. So the drivers don't pay attention. It is crazy dangerous. I have not crashed yet because I am prepared for them using various strategies, and have O.K. emergency braking + accident-avoidance quick turns.

Edited October 22, 2023 by techyiam

[Paul g]

29 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I have to say, riding in bike lanes on the side of major roads is much, much likely to get hit by a "I didn't see him" car driver than riding a motorcycle. It is already bad being on a motorcycle. But on a PEV in a bike lane can amount to committing suicide. Around here, the bike lanes are empty 99% of the time. So the drivers don't pay attention. It is crazy dangerous. I have not crash yet because I prepared for them using various strategies, and have O.K. emergency braking + accident-avoidance quick turns.

       To be safe bicycle lanes must be segregated from car lanes. Most probably you are describing ones that are not, these are only separated by a line drawn on the road. They are extremely dangerous indeed, but some cities in North America seem to make some changes to make it more safe to ride.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

On 10/21/2023 at 1:29 AM, Cobaltsaber said:

You need the battery packs to all have similar voltage when plugging in to prevent an arc from the difference in voltage.

I'm not sure that it matters with the raptor controller, each battery plugs into it separately and it would be foolish if it didn't posses the rudimentary circuit that doesn't connect them until it senses the voltage like other multiple battery devices have. I would also imagine that if one battery is low it is smart enough to not draw from that circuit until the voltages from both packs equalizes. The v13 runs great on one pack, i have tested it myself. I would imagine the same holds true for the 14.

[onewheelkoregro]

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I'm not sure that it matters with the raptor controller, each battery plugs into it separately and it would be foolish if it didn't posses the rudimentary circuit that doesn't connect them until it senses the voltage like other multiple battery devices have. I would also imagine that if one battery is low it is smart enough to not draw from that circuit until the voltages from both packs equalizes. The v13 runs great on one pack, i have tested it myself. I would imagine the same holds true for the 14.

You can remove packs on a V13 and still have it run? I did not know that. I am looking to get a suspension wheel with my Christmas bonus and I can get the V13 from Amazon through the Inmotion Store. Was hoping they would have the KS S19 but sadly they do not. I don't usually go faster than 40 mph so 37 is close enough imo. But then they announced the V14 so now I just don't know what to get.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

39 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

You can remove packs on a V13 and still have it run? I did not know that

You can unplug one of them and it still runs fine, i actually haven't removed one and tried it for obvious reasons. The cool thing about it is you can do it while it's balancing and you cant even tell when you unplug it.

 

39 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

But then they announced the V14 so now I just don't know what to get

I am getting the v14 because i want more lower end torque when i am off road. I am assuming it will deliver in that category but keeping the v13 for my road wheel because with the pilot street 2 tire it goes down the road like a Cadillac. It's amazingly stable at high speed and is not bothered by wind. Tilt back works great as well to keep you from falling on your face. The wheel is heavy but after getting used to it, i am glad its that heavy, really feels planted. 50mph feels like 25 on my other wheel. i would also always recommend getting it through ewheels, they have amazing customer service.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe
afterthought

[Forwardnbak]

25 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

keeping the v13 for my road wheel because with the pilot street 2 tire it goes down the road like a Cadillac. It's amazingly stable at high speed and is not bothered by wind. Tilt back works great as well to keep you from falling on your face. The wheel is heavy but after getting used to it, i am glad its that heavy, really feels planted. 50mph feels like 25 on my other wheel. 

I agree with this, i was just saying similar in a little video I am editing. I have really grown to appreciate the weight a lot, and can hang off the wheel in ways I cant on smaller wheels. it is the best at open road cruising.

I've put a request in for the black adventure with 50s, apparently at the moment they only have 50s in the orange models.  

Getting closer to see these wheels rolling. 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

7 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

apparently at the moment they only have 50s in the orange models.

Yeah, it's looking like we will receive them in orange and have to wait for the black replacement panels.

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

But then they announced the V14 so now I just don't know what to get.

For me, even having only ridden around in a showroom gave me the impression the S19 would be a nice wheel to putt around the city. It stands out as a polished, well-balanced wheel. WrongWay seems to really like riding it after 400 hundreds of kilometres of riding.

As for the V14, got to wait to see it in person and a chance to at least hop on it. And reading up on what others have to say about it, and watch the review videos. On paper, it does looked really nice. The negative is that it is an all new wheel. So waiting for more data would be a good idea.

Having been surprised various times after trying out new wheels, I don't think I would buy a wheel that I haven't seen in person and at least get a chance to hop on it. That tiny interaction may not seem much, but it can be telling in how the wheel is roughly like.

Also, don't dismiss the Paton. Duff's latest video have a riding mate who is fairly new to euc's. He normally rides a V10F, but he could comfortably ride the Patton without much "seat time". Not so with the S22. Also, this rider was really drawn to the Patton after a brief ride. IMO, the Patton is an easy to ride wheel, even though it weighs around 90 lbs. It is quite astonishing.

If you get the chance, you should to ride the wheels. 

In short, you should wait.

Edited October 23, 2023 by techyiam

[UPONIT]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:56 PM, Paul g said:

  It is called accident statistics and any civilised country has one. The motorcycle accidents are more severe then car and bikes, example UK:

 

      Source:     https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80d35640f0b62302695b61/motorcyclist-casualties-2013-data.pdf

    

LOL. Yes, I believe I've heard of accident statistics before. 

What you may not have considered before being so sure that those statistics are useful in this situation are things like:

1) Extreme under-reporting. How many of your EUC "crashes" have you reported to the authorities? How many of your bike crashes? Car accidents? Motorcycle? 

Accidents where a police report is taken and entered into a database are NOT the only type of accident that is relevant to determining relative safety between different methods of transport.

1 A) Define "crash." If we mean only fatal accidents, see #2. I know of one EUC fatality in my immediate region. How many others have there been?  Again see #2 and #3.

2) Inaccuracies. These data aren't from a controlled experiment. They come from a thousand government agencies. People are involved = errors.

3) EUCs aren't even a category. Do we want them to be?

I could list a million other reasons why the stats you provided can't be used as unimpeachable proof of what kind of vehicle is "safest." But hopefully this reminds you that statistics is a complex discipline, and data are easy to misinterpret. 

[UPONIT]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:37 AM, Paul g said:

       To be safe bicycle lanes must be segregated from car lanes. Most probably you are describing ones that are not, these are only separated by a line drawn on the road. They are extremely dangerous indeed, but some cities in North America seem to make some changes to make it more safe to ride.

But they are safer than no bike lane at all, no? (And is your answer/opinion based on anecdotal evidence? Or controlled experimentation and data gathering?)

There are implementations of all sorts of "traffic calming/bike safety" measures. Almost all of them have flaws. There is no perfect solution to anything. IMPROVEMENT with assessment of success or failure of every implementation, seems like the best way forward. On a macro-scale, that is what has always happened in civilization, over time.

Interesting thing to remember: before cars, the world wasn't some pedestrian utopia. Horses and carriages killed pedestrians, crashed and caused all kinds of trouble. They also made cities cesspools of horseshit and horse corpses.