Pedal sensitivity versus rider effort

[Funky]

19 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Yes, that's a known thing, and despite it being a tempting thing to do for beginners, the sooner they learn to widen their stance by default the better.

Good to learn that about MC boot tread patterns and what they are optimised for. The touring boots I have settled on for now have a very shallow 'un-grabby' grip by themselves which is much nicer for dismounting and walking about, yet still remains locked into those studs when it needs to be.

Now if only I could find boots that don't have a front bumper plate on them that presses too hard on the pads, and bruises my shins (despite leatt dual axis jobbies, can you believe it ?!) in a way it wouldn't do if it simply wasn't there ! And so the hunt for the perfect boot continues... sigh 

Here enjoy. I like my sneakers.  

Edited January 9, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

6 hours ago, novazeus said:

i've been gone 4 years, and i come back and verybody is pad dependent. i think i see why. without overhang of ur feet, u lose that leverage on the pedals.

With longer pedals we don't lose but gain leverage. The reason for power pads is that wheels have become much more powerful such that the leverage from the pedals does not anymore suffice to squeeze out the available torque without moving around on the pedal (like stepping forward for accelerating and backward for braking). Instead of stepping around on a long pedal, we use power pads to create the leverage and the overleans.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Mono

[novazeus]

46 minutes ago, Mono said:

With longer pedals we don't lose but gain leverage. The reason for power pads is that wheels have become much more powerful such that the leverage from the pedals does not anymore suffice to squeeze out the available torque without moving around on the pedal (like stepping forward for accelerating and backward for braking). Instead of stepping around on a long pedal, we use power pads to create the leverage and the overleans.

would u say that if u have a 13" overall shoe length, and an 11 inch long pedal, would u put ur shoe even with the back of the pedal with two inches hanging over the front, or do u try and center ur shoe on the pedal. we aren'built so different. i mean the centerline of our legs intersect with our feet, approximately in the same place, unless ur an unicorn.

if my shoes are placed correctly, my control is effortless. i can't use the stock pads for instance on the s22 because they are too far back, and i moved the boomerangs as far forward as possible, without drilling new holes.

maybe yesterday my new van's boot were restricting movement/flexing of my feet. i'm not looking to ride like dawn. 20mph is plenty fast for me, but i'd rather control forwards and backwards with just foot pressure. 

just studying dawn riding on the v13, it appears her boots are even with the front which means her heels are about an inch forward of the rear of the pedal. obviously she doesn't have a foot long foot like me. also i noticed she has her toes pointed out and her heels closer to the wheel, a splayed kind of stance. in golf, stance is everything, in wheels i suspect also.

Edited January 9, 2023 by novazeus

[Mono]

10 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i'd rather control forwards and backwards with just foot pressure

Then the larger wheel diameters (and heavy wheels) may not be quite ideal for you. The necessary forward-backward displacement is directly proportional to the wheel diameter and also increases with the wheel weight, namely proportionate to (r + w) / r with r=rider weight and w=wheel weight, IIRC.

[novazeus]

6 minutes ago, Mono said:

Then the larger wheel diameters (and heavy wheels) may not be quite ideal for you. The necessary forward-backward displacement is directly proportional to the wheel diameter and also increases with the wheel weight, namely proportionate to (r + w) / r with r=rider weight and w=wheel weight, IIRC.

not if i wanted to go fast, but i bet if u just put a little weight on the front of a pedal, like a two pound dumbbell, with nothing on the rear, and put that dog on top of it, i bet he'd hit 56mph eventually. 

i'm going back to thin soles tmrw and see if that's better. 

hell, i've tried to calibrate the s22 three times now, and the trolley stands are perfect for it, but i still can't get a forward bias. i pick up the ass end, it calibrates, but it's still in reverse.

and the s18 is no 9bs2, it's pretty big and powerful, and i have zero problems utilizing it's speed. like the pedals are more sensitive/better. the s22 are on novacaine.

maybe a long handle bolted to the pedal to lean it forward.

Edited January 10, 2023 by novazeus

[level9]

21 minutes ago, novazeus said:

if my shoes are placed correctly, my control is effortless. i can't use the stock pads for instance on the s22 because they are too far back, and i moved the boomerangs as far forward as possible, without drilling new holes.

 

Doesn't matter where the pedals are so much as where you place your ankle which should be just behind the center of the wheel, ideally.

Agreed the S22 is shifted too far back which makes it more difficult to accelerate (there are many complaints around this). Ditch the boomerang/pads and get some custom ones. I use Grizzla flow pads with the fairing plate. Also, I shifted the pedals into the forward position to keep toes from hanging off. I can hit 40+ mph before I even realize how fast I'm going. It's nearly effortless.

[novazeus]

6 minutes ago, level9 said:

Doesn't matter where the pedals are so much as where you place your ankle which should be just behind the center of the wheel, ideally.

Agreed the S22 is shifted too far back which makes it more difficult to accelerate (there are many complaints around this). Ditch the boomerang/pads and get some custom ones. I use Grizzla flow pads with the fairing plate. Also, I shifted the pedals into the forward position to keep toes from hanging off. I can hit 40+ mph before I even realize how fast I'm going. It's nearly effortless.

i'll ditch all what ks supplied and ride it naked with just velcro for now, and try to study which pads might suit me better for control.

[Mono]

14 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i'll ditch all what ks supplied and ride it naked with just velcro for now, and try to study which pads might suit me better for control.

As the least intrusive version of control padding, I really like Kuji pads. I wouldn't want to live without them anymore.

[novazeus]

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

As the least intrusive version of control padding, I really like Kuji pads. I wouldn't want to live without them anymore.

i'll check them out. the $99 titan pads from clark would probably do me. somebody pointed out, if for nothing else, they help u position ur feet the same, like when mounting.

hell, on the s18, all i have to do is suck my gut in to stop, and let it out to go. not that big of a difference between the two wheels. s22 20 pounds heavier. 

course i did run it yesterday at 6 pounds below max sidewall pressure and that might have contributed to it's sluggish nature. got it jacked up to 45 now. looks and feels better visually. tmrw i'll see if it makes a difference.  i think the first 1.2 miles, i had it at 41, and np. at 35, it would want to careen to one side or the other. hard to keep it in the centerline of the tread. 

idk why tires seem to be so challenging for wheel makers. u should be able to order whatever u want, street or knobby.

[novazeus]

well hell, here's the problem. pretty obvious sitting on my mobile wheel stands(best thing i've done lately, and free).

the red yoga mat is exactly where my pronounced ankle bone hits, ie why the yoga mat insert.

so if it's standard knowledge, u should have ur ankle centered on the wheel, shouldn't somebody tell king song. wtf!

i'll leave them as dork over protection until real pads arrive. i should have put them on with velcro. i'll rip off the bottom tmrw. it's the main problem.still getting some aftermarket pads because anything making mounting and foot placement easier, is worth the money. 

i had her completely engulfed in the yoga mat the first time i rode it, first time on a wheel in 4 years, no problem, love it. after ripping off the yoga mat, cheaper at $20, to get to the glued sliders by king song, ithought, wtf, i'll try their pads and that was a colossal mistake. lowering the air pressure down to 35 from 41 was a mistake too. i'mgonna pump up the s18 to max pressure of 41 again. 

btw, if ur really gonna provide valuable information, u gotta have a baseline, a 250 pound rider running on deflated tires is gonna get lousy range compared to dawn running max pressure in the tire. find somebody that can ride a wheel with the tires inflated to what it says on the sidewall. it's called rolling resistance. get ready because jimmy carter taught us this in the seventies, with the gas shortages.

i'll know better in my next life.

Edited January 10, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

heres what i copied. obviously wrong too.

from ewheels. i guess jason doesn't know about the ankle centerline thing yet either.

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

not pretty but fixed. and yeah, when the balls of my feet are at the end of the pedals, and my toes can flop over the front, my ankles are centered on the wheel, my heel is at least an inch from the back.

looks better with all their plastic crap gone that was unusable. well, now i know. i shuda named my yoga mat wraps something cooler in 2017, and instead of laughing at me, i could have sold yoga mat kits, haha. no wobbles, evah!

i just did some idling between my boards inside and i'll have no problem generating plenty of speed.

must be a golfer thing. we're use to shifting our weight from foot to foot and heel to toe. look at nicklaus in his prime. tiger could generate 130mph clubhead speed, just shifting his weight, no clark pads. if i add spikes, i want them on my shoes, not on the pedals, but i don't i'll need them. 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by novazeus

[rcgldr]

10 hours ago, novazeus said:

just studying dawn riding on the v13, it appears her boots are even with the front which means her heels are about an inch forward of the rear of the pedal. ... also i noticed she has her toes pointed out and her heels closer to the wheel

At 0:56 into Dawn's speed run video, there's a bit of an angle and you can see her toes are a bit behind the front edge of the pedals, but her feet do look like they are shifted forwards from being centered. Unless those power pads are adjustable, her foot position is limited by the front part of the power pads. 

I wonder if she could hear the beeps near the end of the video.

Toes a bit out and heels in seems common for a lot of riders. Kuji Rolls rides that way on the V13. At 2:07 into the video, you can see Kuji lifts his heels off the pedals with all of his weight on his toes and the balls of his feet. Wrong Way does the same thing on incline tests. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaacNUkhTRY&t=100s

Marty has Melody try out the V13. She also rides a bit toes out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUMtNS7pziE

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by rcgldr

[level9]

My S22 setup which fixes the torque issues - leg is just behind the center point of the wheel.

- pedals in the forward position
- grizzla flow pads + fairing plate

Everything is velcro attached, even the fairing plate and baby bumper pads for maximum adjustability.

Also have the 3d printed calf saver installed - highly recommended. It's a very comfy ride now.

 

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, level9 said:

My S22 setup which fixes the torque issues - leg is just behind the center point of the wheel.

- pedals in the forward position
- grizzla flow pads + fairing plate

Everything is velcro attached, even the fairing plate and baby bumper pads for maximum adjustability.

Also have the 3d printed calf saver installed - highly recommended. It's a very comfy ride now.

 

so my memory serves me correctly, out of the box, the s22 is kinda toady off the line. like i said, i just started playing with it and i like to evaluate any wheel before making modifications, but moving the pedal forward is probably mandatory for me, i'd out of the box, safer for a beginner at the way ks ships it. just saying if anybody learning is just starting on it. because i don't really have an acceleration problem, because we rode like that all our wheel back in prehistoric times of short pedals. 

if i move the pedals forward, with my golf ability to shift weight on my feet, i won't even be leaning. 

tmrw, with my new dumpster, woohoo, no garbage service here in years, i'm gonna clean up and work on my wheel corral and keter outdoor box if time permits. at least an hour and a half a day i Bob's walk, and between him, and feeding the cows so they'll bring decent money at market, haha, that's a joke about decent money, so i can pay off this incoming v13.

i'm the most concerned about the batteries soc being less than 100%. i guess i'll have to re-join fb and start chatting with tina wong again if she's still with them.

 

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, level9 said:

My S22 setup which fixes the torque issues - leg is just behind the center point of the wheel.

- pedals in the forward position
- grizzla flow pads + fairing plate

Everything is velcro attached, even the fairing plate and baby bumper pads for maximum adjustability.

Also have the 3d printed calf saver installed - highly recommended. It's a very comfy ride now.

 

u know, i feel like i sorta invented pads with my yoga matted wheels 5 years ago. there werent any back then. king songs were terrible, that's my first try, but not tmrw, maybe later this month or when the v13 arrives, i'm gonna try a setup like that, because in the pasture u need a ton of torgue. the 18s wasn't strong enough and too top heavy. on pavement, foot accelerator is fine, but pasture riding is trail riding without the trail. i hoping this suspension wheel won't beat me up like the old straight axle kind. the $99 dollar clark pad looks like a good place to start. the s22 is replacing my jeep for inspection rides and that is slow technical riding requiring lots of torque. going fast across my pastures would require an ambulane or worse the first day, i don't care how good a rider u think u are, u will be eating myaaka sand.

be smart if the pad makers made videos on how pads work, how to install, what they do, etc etc etc, a little marketing. i'd be pleased with good pkotos of the actual wheel i'm buying, not king song's bait and switch. i wanted the tire that kuji had in his s18 video. and the street tire on the s22.:

picking up acorns and them scraping against the fender is quite unpleasant. i probably need street tires out here. i'm always born dry.

i can't ride around the wetlands, that's too gnarly for my backhoe loader. and if i get hurt, the buzzards and coyotes will finish me off, that's what they do.

[novazeus]

ha! i made a medical discovery last night @level9for the case for the longer pedals and relocating them forward. i was enjoying watching my old videos last night, should have done it sooner, not a better way to learn, learning from urself. and i noticed how far forward my feet were on all my old wheels like 7 different ones, 

and then i stubbed my big toe on one of the wheel dollies trying to update the firmware, which is up to date, so a wasted stubbed big toe, and i'm walking on my vinyl floor and i notice this pain like i stepped on a tack at the base of my right foot big toe, my accelerator foot, and so naturally i reach down and nothing is there, but i feel what is the beginning of a forn or bunion. women, and some men i guess get those from wearing pinching shoes. i had one years ago and it's like a callous underneath ur skin, annoying and sometimes painful.

i use to rida alot. back and forth to my gate. hundreds of miles, u had to to unlock a king song wheel and i had two of them.

it just dawned on me last night, because i've done like 70 miles since starting back last week and finally moving my feet where they sb after king song tried to kill me with their pads, but this corn is from my big toe hanging off the front and the front edge is starting to make a bunion or corn there again. 

i never put two and two together. i thought i had gotten some foreign object up there and the resultant corn or bunion was the effect of that. 

nope, it was all my riding in thin soled van's. it's not pronounced like it was, just starting back! 

so thank you sir for reminding me about ks-s22 pedal adjustment. 

now i just need to drop it off at the wheel pro shop for adjustment! 

haha!

i love it when i finally figure out something, esp when it was causing me pain. hadn't had a problem in years. hadn't ridden a wheel in years.

[Uras]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:23 AM, level9 said:

My S22 setup which fixes the torque issues - leg is just behind the center point of the wheel.

- pedals in the forward position
- grizzla flow pads + fairing plate

Everything is velcro attached, even the fairing plate and baby bumper pads for maximum adjustability.

Also have the 3d printed calf saver installed - highly recommended. It's a very comfy ride now.

 

What is your leg position like while you're on the wheel for real? It looks like your leg would be centered if you're standing with straight legs, but not if they're bent. I say this because I set up my pads to suit with legs bent - this means if my legs are straight they're actually behind the center line.

[rcgldr]

On 1/2/2023 at 6:55 AM, rcgldr said:

So at the axle, the pendulum experiences a linear force: a * p, and a torque: -a * (e + p) (the backwards torque the motor exerts onto the frame). This is balanced by the pull of gravity | lean angle of the pendulum.

Summary - the point of this thread - a rider has to exert the same amount of torque onto the EUC frame that the EUC motor exerts onto the wheel|tire. This torque is what I meant by rider effort, and pedal sensitivity doesn't change that. A heavier EUC or rider increases the overall mass of EUC + rider, and requires the rider exert a bit more torque to get the same amount of acceleration. 

Typically, most of the rider lean is due to acceleration | deceleration, and only part of the lean is being used to exert a torque onto the EUC frame. An exception would be EUC girl doing an acceleration test on a Begode Hero, since the Hero weighs more than EUC girl.

 - - - other stuff - - -

In the acceleration | braking tests that I've seen, EUCs are limited to about 1/3 g, such as 0 to 50 kph in about 4 seconds, versus most cars and motorcycles that can brake at about 1 g. High torque EUCs can climb 35 degree to 40 degree inclines, which translates into about .5 to .6 g, but at very slow speeds.

Foot position, pedal sensitivity, pedal tilt are rider preference. Most of the youtubers have their feet centered or nearly centered. 
 

Edited January 12, 2023 by rcgldr

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

High torque EUCs can climb 35 degree to 40 degree inclines, which translates into about .5 to .6 g, but at very slow speeds.

A counter example? Time-stamped. 

And noticed the lack of forward lean in relation of how steep the slope is.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by techyiam

[rcgldr]

On 1/12/2023 at 1:22 AM, techyiam said:

notice the lack of forward lean in relation of how steep the slope is.

The lean angle on an incline doesn't need to be that much in order to apply a fairly large amount of torque to the EUC frame.

EX30: weight = 100 lbs, tire radius = 10 inches. Assume center of mass is at axle.

rider: weight = 175 lbs.

For the EUC frame to hold position, there has to be zero net torque at the axle.

Assume climb angle is 35 degrees, rider's center of mass needs to be 9.01334 inches ahead of axle == 3.2776 inches ahead of contact patch 

The force from pavement = 275 lb vertical: 157.73 lb perpendicular to axle, 225.27 lb towards axle (zero torque).

Torque from pavement | motor onto EUC frame = 157.73 lb * (10/12) ft ~= -131.4445 lb ft

Torque from gravity onto rider| EUC frame = 175 lbs * (9.01334/12) ft ~= +131.4445 lb ft

Torques about contact patch can also be used:

Torque from gravity on EUC   5.7358 inches behind   contact patch ~= -47.80 lb ft

Torque from gravity on rider 3.2776 inches ahead of contact patch ~= +47.80 lb ft

If slope angle is 40 degree, rider center of mass needs to be 10.101 inches front of axle ==  3.6731 inches front of contact patch. 147.31 lb ft of torque.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by rcgldr

[Mono]

6 hours ago, rcgldr said:

A heavier EUC increases the overall mass of EUC + rider, and requires the rider exert a bit more torque to get the same amount of acceleration. 

As the rider input torque (or force) is proportional to the rider weight (and the required output torque is proportionate to the weight of wheel+rider), a heavier rider needs less effort to get the same acceleration. Just being heavier is more additional effort than is needed to compensate for the additional weight.

This becomes obvious when we think about an extremely light rider, like a fly. A fly can move around on the pedal all day long, it won't move the wheel at all. Almost the same is true for a light stick glued to the power pads, in case you believe the length of the object matters here (it does, but it doesn't help without weight). It may make the wheel start creeping slowly, but that's all it will do.

[rcgldr]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

As the rider input torque (or force) is proportional to the rider weight (and the required output torque is proportionate to the weight of wheel+rider), a heavier rider needs less effort to get the same acceleration. 

I missed an edit in that prior post it should have been "... heavier EUC or rider ... more torque" . A heavier rider is generating more torque, which is what I was calling effort, but to the heavier rider, it could be perceived as less effort.

Edited January 12, 2023 by rcgldr

[level9]

12 hours ago, Uras said:

What is your leg position like while you're on the wheel for real? It looks like your leg would be centered if you're standing with straight legs, but not if they're bent. I say this because I set up my pads to suit with legs bent - this means if my legs are straight they're actually behind the center line.

The center of my leg is about ~1 inch behind the wheel (more specifically the motor's) center point as compared to the stock pads even in the most forward position (with the boomerang installed) is about ~3 inches back for most riders (centered over the rear pedal hanger).

I wouldn't go for dead center as it would likely make the wheel far too twitchy and consequently, exhausting to ride IMO.

Also note leaving room for bent legs matters much less on suspension wheels as the suspension is supposed to absorb the bumps for you - not your knees. In cases where I may come upon a huge pothole or somesuch I can always easily slide my legs outside the pads to bend as these pads are tapered towards the outside (not all pads are like this).

[InfiniteWheelie]

Regarding hard and soft modes, this is my guess at how it works...

 

I think the simplest mode is hard mode. When you apply force the wheel will naturally tilt forward, unless a counter force is applied. So the wheel detects the tilt and corrects it nearly instantly, with the exact amount of motor torque needed. This means the wheel essentially stays locked upright, only moving an extremely tiny amount before it's detected and corrected.

 

I think soft mode (in it's simplest form) would work like this... For the first X degrees the motor applies less torque than required to counteract the rider induced tilt, basically allowing the wheel to slowly fall forward with some resistance. I think ideally after these first X degrees, it would then switch to hard mode (using any/all available power to prevent further tilt).

 

Unfortunately I don't think that's how soft mode has been implemented, at least not in LeaperKim wheels. It seems to follow some kind of torque curve where the more tilted the wheel already is, the more torque the rider must apply to tilt the wheel further. This curve seems to apply deep into the tilt angle, perhaps never reaching an actual hard mode. If that's true then this force algorithm is the limiting factor in soft mode, not the wheel's actual power capability. On my Abrams, heavy braking causes deep tilting in soft mode (feels like it'll overpower), but with hard mode it doesn't budge or cut out.

Edited January 13, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie