"Hot Box" - Fire - Safe Storage. (Updated)

[Paul g]

25 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I think I am going to make a box out of fireproof materials from these guys to stop the spread...

https://www.vitcas.com/ceramic-fibre-insulation

 

It would be nice to be able to make a simple light weight box without to many complicated mechanisms, but it will not be able to contain the hot gases phase. These only work giving you some time to throw it out or escape the house.

[Funky]

Then it's better to store wheel right against window at sloped angle. 

The heat/firebomb alone would break the window and because so said slope it would simply fall out of window. Resulting wheel not being in house at all and it burning 3 stories lower in dirt.

Only thing that will get damaged - window..

Edited September 27, 2022 by Funky

[Robse]

Just now, Funky said:

Then it's better to store wheel right against window at sloped angle. 

The heat/firebomb alone would break the window and because so said slope it would simply fall out of window. Resulting wheel not being in house at all and it burning 3 stories lower in dirt.

Only thing that will get damaged will be said window..

As well as any persons who happen to be down on the pavement under the window. 
Therefore, a warning sign must be placed "Beware, possibility of falling burning lithium batteries and other debris"

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, Robse said:

As well as any persons who happen to be down on the pavement under the window. 
Therefore, a warning sign must be placed "Beware, possibility of falling burning lithium batteries and other debris"

Good thing it's dirt/grass there, so noone should be walking there..  Perfect place for a burning wheel. As i have no pavement/walk path anywhere near my window.   Also no balconies under my windows. So neighbors will not get hot surprise.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Funky

[Robse]

Just now, Funky said:

Good thing it's dirt/grass there, so noone should be walking there..  Perfect place for a burning wheel. As i have no pavement anywhere near of falling wheel.  

All clear then , box on wall, one packet of marshmallows. "In case of fire, break glass" 

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, Robse said:

All clear then , box on wall, one packet of marshmallows. "In case of fire, break glass" 

Meh.. I will keep my setup. Hoping that thermal runaway will not catch all batteries on fire at the same time. More or less going off 1by1 or 10by10 batteries at time. Also hoping the batteries catch on fire fast.. So less gas can spread true my room.

60 batteries going off at the same time might get spicy...

 

[The Brahan Seer]

44 minutes ago, Paul g said:

but it will not be able to contain the hot gases phase

I don't know how hot the gasses get and how easily they lose heat. I imagine it might depend on the size of the box too, I would need to speak to a fire engineer to confirm all the details required to mitigate it. But there will be a way.

[Funky]

31 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I don't know how hot the gasses get and how easily they lose heat. I imagine it might depend on the size of the box too, I would need to speak to a fire engineer to confirm all the details required to mitigate it. But there will be a way.

Something that can contain explosions. Very big, thick walled safe - things like those i bet would not need vent holes and could withstand the blast. Doh those thing are very expensive 2-5x the wheel cost. You also need somewhat strong door/hinges and overall structural reinforcements, so they don't get blown off/apart.

It isn't about how "hot" the gasses get, but the pressure they release when they ignite. Regular steel cabinet or firesak would simply "blow" apart. (Without vent holes.) Resulting nothing containing the aftermath fire. Most problematic is the moment when battery pack ignites. When they release so said "fireball" "flamethrower" right at that moment it's the hottest most intense, after that it's simple regular bonfire.

Just check 15:50 and 19:00 time in video as pack "truly" ignites. After that it's simple fire. Smaller wheel with smaller packs are safer...

 

[The Brahan Seer]

54 minutes ago, Funky said:

It isn't about how "hot" the gasses get, but the pressure they release when they ignite. Regular steel cabinet or firesak would simply "blow" apart.

I would need to look into the dynamics to work it all out and/or speak to a fire engineer.  On a similar topic here is a link you might enjoy..

https://pediaa.com/relationship-between-pressure-and-temperature/#:~:text=Conclusion,by the Gay-Lussac's law.

 

[Paul g]

2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I don't know how hot the gasses get and how easily they lose heat.

Well, “If you complicate a thing enough you’ll manage to not achieve anything!” - old saying  

 

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

Well, “If you complicate a thing enough you’ll manage to not achieve anything!” - old saying  

So true.

[The Brahan Seer]

So my take is very simple, get a metal cabinet and line it with the best insulation to stop the transfer of heat on all sides. The gases will vent off into the atmosphere and very quickly lose heat and dissipate whilst the cabinet won't build up enough pressure to do anything else. Wait till the next day after everything has cooled down and the pressure has dropped and throw wheel away, whilst keeping the house intact. If you say this won't work explain exactly why and with evidence to support your claim. The video of the fire although looked very spectacular didn't have very much force in the blast. Nothing a 1.2mm sheet of steel wouldn't have stopped. But that is just my take using a very uncomplicated method probably much like Firesak did only mine is a better guess. Sounds like I should work for Begode now.

Edited September 27, 2022 by The Brahan Seer
From my previous posts on this thread I am obviously being sarcastic here.

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

So my take is very simple, get a metal cabinet and line it with the best insulation to stop the transfer of heat on all sides. The gases will vent off into the atmosphere and very quickly lose heat and dissipate whilst the cabinet won't build up enough pressure to do anything else. Wait till the next day after everything has cooled down and the pressure has dropped and throw wheel away, whilst keeping the house intact. If you say this won't work explain exactly why and with evidence to support your claim. The video of the fire although looked very spectacular didn't have very much force in the blast. Nothing a 1.2mm sheet of steel wouldn't have stopped. But that is just my take using a very uncomplicated method probably much like Firesak did only mine is a better guess. Sounds like I should work for Begode now.

My take was the same. I used 1,5mm thick metal enclosure. And as much as possible vent holes. Same time i insulated whole inside with rockwool. Also added 3 layers of padding to the sides, where i have other forniture pretty close. (When i was testing the rockwool with "big" gas torch, other side got only warm after ~4 min of burning - direct torch flames into rockwool. And that was with only one layer.. So 1+3 layers i think will do the job.) And vent holes directed towards nothing that can catch on fire - when flames come rushing outwards of box.

 

The heat that will be coming off the box alone will heat the room to extreme temperatures... 2-4x times HOTTER than pretty big bonfire. Luckily that heat will happen only for short time, when pack ignites. You need something that can handle ~3000C for about 10-30 seconds, if all cells ignite the same time. If the pack burns slowly more like 1by1 cell, then it's safer. Less of a flamethrower effect, more like a regular fire.

Doh if we look at individual material ignition temperature. (Books, chairs, clothes, plastics..) Almost everything still will/could catch on fire...

[Paul g]

2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

So my take is very simple, get a metal cabinet and line it with the best insulation to stop the transfer of heat on all sides. The gases will vent off into the atmosphere and very quickly lose heat and dissipate whilst the cabinet won't build up enough pressure to do anything else. Wait till the next day after everything has cooled down and the pressure has dropped and throw wheel away, whilst keeping the house intact. If you say this won't work explain exactly why and with evidence to support your claim. The video of the fire although looked very spectacular didn't have very much force in the blast. Nothing a 1.2mm sheet of steel wouldn't have stopped. But that is just my take using a very uncomplicated method probably much like Firesak did only mine is a better guess. Sounds like I should work for Begode now.

When you enclose that gun powder in a box it will behave very different than when left outside in the open, it will blow up your box. If you provide holes in the box, the hot burning gases will escape in the house and start burning it. I wish there was a simple answer to this issue, but is not. The firefighters bring a container full with water that can contain the burning car. They would rather not do that, but do they have a choice?

Edited September 27, 2022 by Paul g

[The Brahan Seer]

Or you could get one of these... or make one to similar specs. 

https://www.empteezy.co.uk/products/795-li?variant=29440500891726

[RagingGrandpa]

7 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Or you could get one of these... or make one to similar specs. 

https://www.empteezy.co.uk/products/795-li?variant=29440500891726

I can't tell from the page- how much battery capacity (wh) is that $5,000 box rated to contain?

[The Brahan Seer]

3 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I can't tell from the page- how much battery capacity (wh) is that $5,000 box rated to contain?

Yes I couldn't find that either, hard to tell from the size and shelf number too.

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I can't tell from the page- how much battery capacity (wh) is that $5,000 box rated to contain?

Could be bugos rated, same as firesak.  

Yeah.. For 5000$ i will let my room burn... New interior will cost around the same.

[The Brahan Seer]

@RagingGrandpa Impractical anyway very heavy and takes up a lot of room.

So we just need to take our chances until solid state kicks in. Or make something that might buy us a little time if nothing else.

I have mentioned before on this forum  having the EUC charge and sit on a trolley (with handle) isn't such a bad idea for a quicker getaway.

[Paul g]

7 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I can't tell from the page- how much battery capacity (wh) is that $5,000 box rated to contain?

That box makes a lot of sense, it has a hole for fitting a metal duct to expel hot gases out of the house. Now if you have some backyard space you can relatively cheaply make such a box (using cheaper materials), bring power to it, install a fire alarm on it, fit a metal duct to guide the gases up and away from things that can ignite, and that’s it. But if you have more EUCs it will probably look more like a backyard shed.

[Funky]

Little update.

I have tested it by filling it full of gas and igniting it from distance. It didn't "blow up" and you all would be amazed how cool it looked in real life. All those small holes combined and it looked like big rocket for 2-4 seconds. Whole front door was like big rocket. The flames came out about 1 meter in distance. I mainly wanted to see if it would explode like "petard" destroying the box in result, or would the air vents work as intended. (It didn't have wheel inside, so gas volume was bigger than when wheel would be inside. Less gas inside - less pressure.) Also holes where covered with tape, so less gas escaped the box. -Worst possible scenario when igniting.        (I even recorded it -Won't upload it.. And watched it multiple times. Because i knew in those 2-4 second i won't see "much". As i knew door corners top/bottom came loose little bit and springed back into place -Extra safety if pressure is to strong.)

 

I also have exchanged the rubber wire pass true - to iron pipe fitting, that is screwed from inside.(It won't move/go anywhere.) It looks like this: 

I'm also thinking of upgrading side, back with thicker rockwool. And have it going at full lenght of the box. -Better heat absorption. So even if it's burns in the box. Otherside of the rockwool would stay cool to touch. Even after some time have passed..

Edited November 5, 2022 by Funky

[RagingGrandpa]

On 11/5/2022 at 1:10 PM, Funky said:

Whole front door was like big rocket. The flames came out about 1 meter in distance.

So what was your conclusion? 
(Could your apartment have tolerated this without additional things catching fire?)

[Funky]

Just now, RagingGrandpa said:

So what was your conclusion? 
(Could your apartment have tolerated this without additional things catching fire?)

Yes. Doh my ceilings would melt 100%.. Catching on fire - That's how "lucky" i am. How the burning happens. If more or less cells ignite 1 by 1 or 5 a time. (Even in quick intervals.) Then i'm 99% confident in containing the fire. (It would be the same as having metal barrel fire in my room.) If all 60 cells ignite the same time, then i don't know.. From heat alone things can catch on fire.

I can only hope that all cells don't explode the same time.

[Paul A]

Hopefully, there is someone there at the time.

That like the NYC S22 fire, the cells initially give the early warning pops/hiss/smoke, and there is some time before it fully explodes into an inferno.

 

This video of an e-scooter fire whilst charging, whilst people are present and reacting quickly, the speed and ferocity is incredible.

No time to extract batteries to outside.

 

Electric Scooter Explodes during Charging
CCTV Video News Agency

Aug 2, 2018

 

A video recently appeared online showed one Chinese family's electric scooter exploded while being charged at home.

The video, shot by the family's surveillance camera installed in their living room showed the whole family were sitting at home Sunday afternoon when smoke came out of the scooter being charged in the living room, accompanied by large noises.

A man tried to disconnect the charger but seeing the smoke got heavier, he took his child and escaped the room.

Seconds later the scooter exploded.

 

[Funky]

26 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Hopefully, there is someone there at the time.

That like the NYC S22 fire, the cells initially give the early warning pops/hiss/smoke, and there is some time before it fully explodes into an inferno.

 

This video of an e-scooter fire whilst charging, whilst people are present and reacting quickly, the speed and ferocity is incredible.

No time to extract batteries to outside.

 

Electric Scooter Explodes during Charging
CCTV Video News Agency

Aug 2, 2018

 

A video recently appeared online showed one Chinese family's electric scooter exploded while being charged at home.

The video, shot by the family's surveillance camera installed in their living room showed the whole family were sitting at home Sunday afternoon when smoke came out of the scooter being charged in the living room, accompanied by large noises.

A man tried to disconnect the charger but seeing the smoke got heavier, he took his child and escaped the room.

Seconds later the scooter exploded.

 

 

Yeah i have seen it. Battery fires are no joke. Nothing like regular campfire.. Bigger the euc - the bigger the inferno.

Even if you notice it starts making the "warning" noises/sounds. Would you risk taking it out of said "box"? It could explode right as you are carrying it true living room. Burning yourself and so on.. After it starts burning - you won't go anywhere near it.

 

First thing that i will do is buy new EUC when solid state batteries become a reality!

Edited November 7, 2022 by Funky