Fires?

[Crafty]

I've been looking to get my first EUC, and I've heard that Gotway's wheels are the main culprit of catching on fire. What are they doing differently than all the other companies, and how are they still in business with that kind of track record?

[Funky]

14 hours ago, Crafty said:

I've been looking to get my first EUC, and I've heard that Gotway's wheels are the main culprit of catching on fire. What are they doing differently than all the other companies, and how are they still in business with that kind of track record?

You ask how - people still continue buying them.. Most fire happened on older wheels that used "some kind" battery pack. Newer models don't burn as much.

1 in 10000 maybe? In perfect world they should not burn, but hey.. We don't live in one. To many drops, water getting in battery pack, something short circuits results in happy 4th of July. 

[RagingGrandpa]

Fun to go back to basics... new riders can't be expected to dig through 30 pages of discussion   

14 hours ago, Crafty said:

[Gotway has had more fires than other EUC brands]
What are they doing differently?

Really there's no substantive difference in Gotway's troubled 21700-cell packs, from Kingsong's troubled 21700-cell packs. 

But Gotway was first-to-market with 21700, and has more market volume with 21700 than the others, so they were dominating the headlines in 2021.

Luckily, the most-often-implicated 21700 cell model (LG M50T) is no longer being used by any current-production EUC manufacturer, and there have been fewer fires from new 21700-cell wheels than the older ones.
 

14 hours ago, Crafty said:

how are they still in business with that kind of track record?

1. Their reputation was damaged by the fires.
2. Lawsuits against Chinese-owned businesses are impractical.
3. They're the performance leader (now being challenged by their spinoff company Leaperkim). 
4. Some vendors offer non-Gotway battery packs with additional safety features, in new Gotway wheels.

 

I always recommend fire safety education and preparedness, because any Li-Ion battery pack carries a risk of fire. 

The lessons are simple:
- The hazard involves poisonous smoke that will burn your eyes and lungs. 
- The hazard involves flaming projectiles which can start other objects on fire.
- Fighting the fire yourself is almost impossible, because the chemical reaction cannot be stopped with simple extinguishers or water spray.
(Extinguishers and water do not make the fire worse, and are helpful in stopping fire from spreading... but you can't use them very long before the smoke forces you away.)

And therefore you should: 
- Store and charge it somewhere that fire and smoke wouldn't prevent you from escaping. 
- Prepare a way to quickly move a smoking battery before a big fire erupts (thick gloves, drag bag, leash, etc; and out a door, window, balcony, etc)

These things apply to any EUC, eBike, eScooter, eSk8, onewheel, eLawnmower, EV, etc. Any large Lithium battery pack.

Happy shopping!  

[T.A.D]

On 5/31/2022 at 6:05 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Fun to go back to basics... new riders can't be expected to dig through 30 pages of discussion   

Really there's no substantive difference in Gotway's troubled 21700-cell packs, from Kingsong's troubled 21700-cell packs. 

Respectfully - there is a lot more going on than just the choice of cells. The poor QA, the lack of fuses, the lack of upgradable firmware, the lack of communication, trying to change your name to escape your reputation. Etc etc.

 

[RagingGrandpa]

Really there's no substantive difference in Gotway's troubled 21700-cell packs, from Kingsong's troubled 21700-cell packs. 

11 hours ago, T.A.D said:

Respectfully - there is a lot more going on than just the choice of cells. The poor QA, the lack of fuses, the lack of upgradable firmware, the lack of communication, trying to change your name to escape your reputation. Etc etc.

<dramatic youtube vid>

MSP's burn. And S18's burn.
Both had "dumb" top-balancing BMS, and similar construction. MSP's had a 60A-per-pack "fuse"; S18's had pack-shutoff FETs (and no fuses). 
Both brands have improved their product safety in their newer models.

The rest of the nuance has been discussed in-depth here: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/25541-begode-900wh-battery-recall-options/ 
(But we can't expect new riders to spend many hours studying these details)

TL;DR: Buying a new Kingsong is not measurably less risky than buying a new Begod. So plan accordingly!  
 

Edited June 2, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Tawpie]

On 5/31/2022 at 12:16 AM, Crafty said:

What are they doing differently than all the other companies

It's difficult to know for sure, partly because fire messes with the forensics. But there was a spate of fires in GW 900 wH packs that used the 21700 M50T and for whatever reason the largest distributor in the US was unsatisfied with how BG addressed the situation—so they stopped selling BG wheels for over a year. Absolutely, KS wheels have burned, but for whatever reason eWheels continued to sell their product. GW/BG does or did handle the situation differently than KS did—else eWheels probably would have stopped selling KS as well. I only say this because eWheels has refused to deliver KS S22s until the battery cells were changed and the BMS was vetted by a third party, so they're using their leverage against KS as well as GW/BG. eWheels is also not selling Abrams at the moment due to the cutout problem (in spite of the fact that eWheels invested heavily in LeaperKim). They don't appear to have much if any particular vendetta against GW/BG but won't sell wheels they deem 'unsafe'. BTW, all GW/BG wheels sold by eWheels will come with third-party batteries… for some reason Jason still won't sell the GW 900 wH pack even though GW no longer uses the problematic LG M50T (it could well be simply that he has invested a million USD in developing his own packs and needs to recoup that investment—the new GW pack may be just fine!).

IM wheels catch fire too, and IM took the (new to the EUC world) action to force an update that will alert you to potential problems in the pack and won't let you ride until you update.

In this niche, I look to how a company responds when problems arise. They are moving fast and breaking things so problems are 100% part of the equation. If the response is to stop ship, recall, or insist on mandatory firmware updates, it indicates that the company owns the problem and is going to get it solved even if it costs them money and sales. If the response is otherwise, the company gets a ❌ in the 'cons' column of my pros-and-cons list. For me, I don't want poorly designed or executed products no matter how fun they are to use. But you have to decide that for yourself… there's a lot to be said for GW/BG product, and for many the pros far outweigh the cons—thus they're still in business. If only just barely.

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

22 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

It's difficult to know for sure, partly because fire messes with the forensics. But there was a spate of fires in GW 900 wH packs that used the 21700 M50T and for whatever reason the largest distributor in the US was unsatisfied with how BG addressed the situation—so they stopped selling BG wheels for over a year. Absolutely, KS wheels have burned, but for whatever reason eWheels continued to sell their product. GW/BG does or did handle the situation differently than KS did—else eWheels probably would have stopped selling KS as well. I only say this because eWheels has refused to deliver KS S22s until the battery cells were changed and the BMS was vetted by a third party, so they're using their leverage against KS as well as GW/BG. eWheels is also not selling Abrams at the moment due to the cutout problem (in spite of the fact that eWheels invested heavily in LeaperKim). They don't appear to have much if any particular vendetta against GW/BG but won't sell wheels they deem 'unsafe'. BTW, all GW/BG wheels sold by eWheels will come with third-party batteries… for some reason Jason still won't sell the GW 900 wH pack even though GW no longer uses the problematic LG M50T (it could well be simply that he has invested a million USD in developing his own packs and needs to recoup that investment—the new GW pack may be just fine!).

IM wheels catch fire too, and IM took the (new to the EUC world) action to force an update that will alert you to potential problems in the pack and won't let you ride until you update.

In this niche, I look to how a company responds when problems arise. They are moving fast and breaking things so problems are 100% part of the equation. If the response is to stop ship, recall, or insist on mandatory firmware updates, it indicates that the company owns the problem and is going to get it solved even if it costs them money and sales. If the response is otherwise, the company gets a ❌ in the 'cons' column of my pros-and-cons list. For me, I don't want poorly designed or executed products no matter how fun they are to use. But you have to decide that for yourself… there's a lot to be said for GW/BG product, and for many the pros far outweigh the cons—thus they're still in business. If only just barely.

I’ve never even checked what packs are in my new rs19 high speed I just got from ewheels I just ride the piss outta it and charge it two times a day atleast lol 

 

12 hours ago, T.A.D said:

Respectfully - there is a lot more going on than just the choice of cells. The poor QA, the lack of fuses, the lack of upgradable firmware, the lack of communication, trying to change your name to escape your reputation. Etc etc.

 

With respect to firmware I just bought my wheel a month ago I’ve put 850 km on the wheel without any issues what so ever ..why on earth would I want to go and update firmware .seems like your just asking for issues if you aren’t having any before an update ?

[Tawpie]

10 minutes ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

why on earth would I want to go and update firmware .seems like your just asking for issues if you aren’t having any before an update ?

Although it's dang difficult to tell from the change log, sometimes firmware update bring real improvements. Reduced pedal dipping, elimination of the post charge vampire drain, and no motor whine are definite improvements to my KS16X that came from OTA firmware upgrades (even though they weren't huge operational problems—it's a much nicer experience overall). BG has the accelerated stability upgrade that many people liked (but seems to have gone away?). I like being able to do firmware upgrades and downgrades, it gives me flexibility.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Tawpie

[Bizra6ot]

On 6/1/2022 at 12:05 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

Fun to go back to basics... new riders can't be expected to dig through 30 32 pages of discussion   

13 hours ago, T.A.D said:

 trying to change your name to escape your reputation. Etc etc.