building 3.5kw controller with thermal rollback

[goatman]

i use phaserunners on my ebikes, theyre waterproof, programmable, just a really good 60amp controller that is a torque throttle, you can control the ramp up and down rates of braking and throttle and can plug any euc motor you want to it and it self learns what the motor is

ive sourced an analog gyroscope that will plug in and control the throttle and regen and emergency shut off

im trying to find a doo dad that will switch from forward to reverse at 0 km/h

should be able to use the speed hall sensor in the motor to do that

does anyone know what that part would be called?

 

[supercurio]

When thinking about the basic principles for self balancing vehicles, a throttle controlled by pedal tilt angle seems alright.

However, you're mentioning acceleration / regen: what about going forward and backwards?

Most significantly I'm guessing would be the matters of sensor input filtering in order to control pedal response and more importantly tune out resonances in the system to avoid vibrations or the whole thing shaking itself to death.

I would suggest to look at the self balancing capabilities VESC gained a few months ago instead, which you'll be able to tune or modify to your liking. 

The main dev and author shared his journey on YouTube:

https://youtube.com/user/freedomcaller

Edited January 4, 2022 by supercurio

[goatman]

forward and reverse would be controlled by the wheel speed, 0 km would switch forward to reverse but more like an on/off/on?

i was thinking of doing of something with an Arduino to switch for/rev

i trust these controllers and know them, they live outside in the cold, rain,snow, heat and a cycle analyst connect to them to give all the stats you could want

Edited January 4, 2022 by goatman
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[supercurio]

How do you balance a wheel idle against a wall, or that you hold still with its trolley handle by defining the balancing strategy as a separate forward/backwards switch from the actual balancing algorithm?

I'm doubtful that would work (but take what I say here with a grain of salt, I've not worked with self balancing code yet)

My assumption here is that separating balancing and direction in two isolated systems instead of the same loop is guaranteed to go wrong.

[goatman]

i have no idea either, i just need it

[goatman]

whats a hoverboard use? ive seen you tube videos on fixing that balance board switch under each foot 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, goatman said:

whats a hoverboard use? ive seen you tube videos on fixing that balance board switch under each foot 

The switch under foot is just to recognize whether a rider is standing on the hoverboard.

No self balancing vehicle that I know of has a switch for reverse. I don’t think the feedback loop can’t be interrupted like that.

 Good luck with your project. It does sound like it’s a bit of a mouthful.

Edited January 4, 2022 by mrelwood

[meepmeepmayer]

Trying to understand your question. Here are my thoughts, maybe it helps you somehow

Think of two black boxes.

The first black box [SB] is some small computer that runs your self-balancing control algorithm. It takes as input the tilt measurement (and maybe its first derivative) from the gyro, nothing else. It gives as output a speed to be given to the motor (which direction = forwards/backwards, and how fast to rotate), presumably in the form of a voltage, as the applied voltage directly determines the motor speed (well in theory). Forwards and backwards are just positive or negative voltage (is that how an electric motor works?).

The second black box is a "motor controller" [MC]. It implements the voltage and makes the motor turn in the direction and as fast as you want it to. It gets precise info from the motor how the motor is turning (at least at low speeds. EUCs seem to only use the Hall sensor at low speeds, above it's just the applied voltage that gets increased or reduced depending how the tilt develops, I guess.) so it can fine-control the speed.

A EUC (in my mind) then works like this:

[tilt measurement] -> [SB algorithm tells you what the motor must do to balance] -> [MC makes the motor do it] <--> [actual motor, also gives feedback to the MC so it can work better]

All the EUC details are in the self-balancing black box. The motor controller just translates what you want into reality (this may be complicated, too, but it is a generic functionality for electric motors).

I always thought a "motor controller" (whatever that is) includes speed and which direction to turn, so a complete control of the motor behavior, but apparently it does not?

Two types of questions you are looking to answer:

1. You are given a typical 3-phase BLDC motor with a hall sensor, and a phaserunner controller. Question is: what extra part do you need to create a "complete" motor controller black box, as defined above.
   I would ask that in an electric motor/electronics forum or some place similar.
2. Is the phaserunner suited to control a EUC?
   EUC motor control seems to be very precise. Is the phase runner that precise, or does the throttle more or less just tell it "Go faster!" or not? Does it support a very fine and precise speed control, especially at low speeds?
   Does it even support reversing the motor direction (people don't ride bikes backwards)?
   So: Can you replace the "throttle" input with your [SB] black box in a meaningful way?
   If the phaserunner doesn't know which direction the motor turns and your mystery extra part does the switching, then the extra part needs an input from the [SB] to that tells it the direction. How would that work?

Maybe this is all wrong so this is just food for thought.

I guess the questions are: how concretely does a EUC board work, what "parts" (= black boxes with a defined behavior) do you need to put together? And how concretely does a "complete" motor controller do direction changes? What can the phaserunner do, and what can it not do?

[goatman]

ok i was focusing on the speed hall sensor but i couldnt really see that working but working from the 3 phase hall sensors that would give the rotation, forward the signal is 1,2,3,1,2,3 rev would be 3,2,1,3,2,1. forward and reverse is just swapping 2 phase wires, any controller with forward reverse does that by connecting or disconnecting 2 wires

the bublink 18 uses an ebike controller

 

you can buy the entire controller or just the black box, ive emailed but no reply yet

this 3 axis gyroscope works  2.5v as balanced 2.4v to 0v could be forward and 2.6v to 5v could be braking

easily programmed in the phaserunner or a nucular controllers, they dont blow up or cut out

just need to switch from forward to reverse

the gyroscope im looking at

https://mhpro.net/online/en/gyroscopes/mhpro-net/3-axis-gyroscope-that-act-as-potentiometer-analog-outputs-p78

cant be that hard

Edited January 4, 2022 by goatman

[mrelwood]

I believe @meepmeepmayer above is correct in how the system works and probably also in what the OP is after.

I also think what the OP would need is a speed controller that understands negative acceleration as well. If it doesn’t have the brains to control the motor in the required manner, it just doesn’t. A switch to somehow change the polarity of the the motor wires is not what’s required, and it wouldn’t result in what the OP is trying to achieve.

[goatman]

i guess it will be harder than i think

another question

what brand motors and controllers are interchangeable?

can i use a KS 16x control board on a ninebot one c motor?

 

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, goatman said:

can i use a KS 16x control board on a ninebot one c motor?

Probably not? It's a total guess, but I have to believe that the control boards and firmware are matched to a specific motor configuration... timing, power delivery, hall sensor wiring etc. If the controller doesn't simply blow up, I'd expect it to be royally confused and not operate 'properly'.

[meepmeepmayer]

There is no interchangeability between brands. Some wheels from one manufacturer use the same motor, so naturally you can use the respective boards with the respective firmware with the one motor. That's all the mix-and-match you get.

[goatman]

 theres noway to go in and change the motor settings in the controller  using a king song app? like pole pairs and kv

Edited January 9, 2022 by goatman
delete a word

[meepmeepmayer]

I don't know, but I'm 99.99999% sure the answer is "No". The manufacturers keep their firmware close and secret, and I never ever heard of any manufacturer allowing any kind of firmware modification or customization (other than the predetermined ride modes).

[supercurio]

6 hours ago, goatman said:

i guess it will be harder than i think

another question

what brand motors and controllers are interchangeable?

can i use a KS 16x control board on a ninebot one c motor?

Nope, but once again I'll suggest VESC 😄

Several boutique manufactures are preparing new wheels using VESC controllers BTW, I think there's room for fantastic innovation in this space, and it feels like it will do what you want and more 

[goatman]

from what little searching ive done, theres a thread here that gave a link to a vesc but its limited to 60v

https://trampaboards.com/vesc-6-mkiv-in-cnc-t6-silicone-sealed-aluminium-box-with-genuine-xt90-connectors--vedder-electronic-speed-controller-trampa-special-p-27536.html

and the bublink is also running at 60v, thats 67v/16s . my bikes and boat run at 61v(71.4v/17s)

id like to stay at that voltage, 16s is too slow for ebikes, doesnt match up with the boat, i could jump my batteries to 72v(84) and just buy a KS18xl controller, motor and pedal brackets and build my own body

 

would it just be a matter of changing the caps in a vesc to go 17s?

[supercurio]

There are a few 100V VESC, I'd suggest to go as high as you can find at reasonable price - aka don't do an Inmotion!

With regen, jumps, bumps you'll get pretty high voltage spikes, way higher than your battery voltage.

Whatever prove most reliable with boards should do the trick + some extra margin because we tend to lean front and back like crazy once power pads are installed.

What did you think of Freedom Caller's videos BTW and his custom VESC Monster?

Edited January 10, 2022 by supercurio

[goatman]

thanks for the tip, i got the vesc link from him but his youtube channel i didnt look at and hes in my area

https://www.youtube.com/user/freedomcaller/videos

and here he did what ive been talking about at 1 minute mark

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by goatman
add video