18XL pedal tilting - not what I really want

[Roadpower]

This is not going to be a fully formulated post but I figured it wouldn't be terrible to get it started. Okay so first off I'm not talking about the tilt back of speed limit reached or that kind of condition.

I've noticed of late that the wheel (now over 1,500 miles) is tilting in what I believe is a design to aid the rider and I don't recall it always behaving this way. I think it has been at least six months since I did a firmware update and as far as I can tell it is on the latest firmware.

Over the last few months I've been changing riding modes and static tilt position to find what works best for me. When I do this I usually leave it at the mode set for at least a few weeks so I can get a real feel for it. The reason why I have been doing this is that I have come to the realization that when the wheel is pitched back it puts an uncomfortable and unwanted strain on my feet.

So I have been experimenting with a static setting of 1 to 2 degrees pitched forward (using the power button as forward orientation). However it frequently seems like the wheel over rides this and pitches back to zero or worse. I've noticed that the wheel will change pitch on modest inclines and on turns. The turns can be especially disconcerting. The wheel has been recently calibrated using a bubble level to zero it out.

It almost seems like the wheel has a learning algorithm and it is reacting to that instead of my user choices. Any ideas of what I could be doing wrong or what is going on here? I'm using EUC World app (which reminds me that I need to send Seba some coin).

[Tawpie]

You might try different firmware... different versions change things like tilt during turns and what hard/medium/soft modes are like. If it goes back to level when you're going straight and level, you might try a 'harder' mode. This is assuming that your control board doesn't need attention (somethings going south with its ability to know what 'level' is)

[Roadpower]

51 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

You might try different firmware... different versions change things like tilt during turns and what hard/medium/soft modes are like. If it goes back to level when you're going straight and level, you might try a 'harder' mode.

Hmm, that might be an idea if this problem(?) had been going on for a while but I'm pretty sure it has been at least six months since last updated. The issue AFAIK has only been noticeable in the last weeks, however this very well could be user error and I am just getting more sensitive to changes.

 

Quote

This is assuming that your control board doesn't need attention (somethings going south with its ability to know what 'level' is)

I don't think that is an issue because the behavior is consistent. I was thinking this two days ago but I calibrated the wheel (to be sure that wasn't the issue). I think I may have to go more extreme with the static pitch setting but I'm a bit concerned that might lead to even worse behavior on turns. I guess I am just going to have to try this in order to find out one way or another.

Thanks Tawpie!

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Roadpower said:

I may have to go more extreme with the static pitch setting

I'd be a bit careful about going too far with the pitch setting. I bought a used S18 and didn't recalibrate it—I was bouncing on it (not jumping) to see how the suspension was working and got the over-lean boop boop boop warnings. I recalibrated it to zero, I think it was 3° tilted back and after recalibration I could bounce all I wanted without the overlean warning. I'm guessing that the tilt was causing my bouncing to be mostly on the front of the pedals and it was effectively being overleaned. Kind of like the ankle flip that'll make a 16X warn about overpower.

I've gotten used to the pedal tilt in turns, I think it's something KS hasn't worked out but I haven't ever noticed tilt going up hills. I mostly ride in hard mode because I don't like the tilt in turns (the tilt is barely noticeable in hard mode) but do imagine that if I liked medium or soft I'd get used to the turn induced tilt.

Maybe @ShanesPlanet has an idea, I don't have an 18XL so I'm talking out of place here!

[Roadpower]

38 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'd be a bit careful about going too far with the pitch setting.

That is exactly what has me concerned. I haven't gone over two degrees because I'm concerned that it may cause issues. When I'm commuting I'm definitely going much faster than I can run off if the excrement hits the fan, hence being very conservative in adjustments. This might be something I just have to adjust to but I really do not like the stress on my feet in the long straightaways when I'm going over the bridge. If it stayed Earth level flat or one degree forward pitch I'd be good, as it turns out it adjusts itself a degree backward when I am ascending over the bridge which is the part that I don't like.

[.....]

I have had a few 18L and now ride an 18XL. I don't think the algos 'learn' as we think it. I love the power delivery of the KS18, but its not seemingly something with AI and changes over time. When I first began riding, I noticed the 18 did take a moment to correct itself when turning AND changing from one incline to another. After many miles, I kind of just got used to it, as it was very minor. A few wheels later and I realize its VERY minor in compare to some. I spent the first year with KS set level, as the old FW didnt even have adjusting. Now I'm runnin 1 degree backwards maybe? I only tilt back as it seems to keep my pedals from bouncing off the front so badly, during speed bumps. I really havent notcied much difference in soft vs hard mode. I keep mine in medium now, as it feels a little less tiring on the feet over time, than hard. HOwever, they are all pretty close.

What you describe sounds like MAYBE its normal behavior, but then again, its hard to know just how much its doing what you describe. Perhaps simply try a firmware update/downgrade thru euc and recalibrate. I havent found that 'tilt' settings change the algo, i think they simply just consider your setting as the new 'level'. It could very well be that you are simply pushing the wheel pretty hard. Have you set and listened for overhead beeps, or reviewed any tour data to see exactly what you are asking from the wheel? Sorry I can't be much help. I don't know much about it, as my 18xl has pretty much been a set and forget device for a while. Fwiw, I use a round bubble level centered on my wheel top, to calibrate. Its finicky if you dont get it just right. A few degrees off when calibrating, can cause big mayhem. Perhaps a simple relevel, just to check? Its pretty quick and easy at least.

Edited November 10, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Roadpower]

4 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I have had a few 18L and now ride an 18XL. I don't think the algos 'learn' as we think it. I love the power delivery of the KS18, but its not seemingly something with AI and changes over time. When I first began riding, I noticed the 18 did take a moment to correct itself when turning AND changing from one incline to another. After many miles, I kind of just got used to it, as it was very minor. A few wheels later and I realize its VERY minor in compare to some. I spent the first year with KS set level, as the old FW didnt even have adjusting. Now I'm runnin 1 degree backwards maybe? I only tilt back as it seems to keep my pedals from bouncing off the front so badly, during speed bumps. I really havent notcied much difference in soft vs hard mode. I keep mine in medium now, as it feels a little less tiring on the feet over time, than hard. HOwever, they are all pretty close.

What you describe sounds like MAYBE its normal behavior, but then again, its hard to know just how much its doing what you describe. Perhaps simply try a firmware update/downgrade thru euc and recalibrate. I havent found that 'tilt' settings change the algo, i think they simply just consider your setting as the new 'level'. It could very well be that you are simply pushing the wheel pretty hard. Have you set and listened for overhead beeps, or reviewed any tour data to see exactly what you are asking from the wheel? Sorry I can't be much help. I don't know much about it, as my 18xl has pretty much been a set and forget device for a while.

Hi Shanes, your observations and thinking are inline with mine which is why the tilting is strange to me. IE it very well could be that I'm just more sensitive to it now, perhaps because I'm generally traveling faster. However the slight tilt back on inclines is just outright stressful on my feet and I wish I could make it stop. I haven't learned to read the tour data to look for what is happening. I may have to learn how to understand what it is showing me. I assume you mean the graph, it never made much sense to me but I have only glanced at it.

Like you I also found the differences in the Kingsong modes to be largely indiscernible. I really wish that the manufacturers would do a comprehensive write up on their modes. For a long time I just left it in hard mode until a video by Wrongway mentioned that on the Kingsong he thought the softer modes would aid the rider in starting out from a dead stop.

[.....]

4 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Hi Shanes, your observations and thinking are inline with mine which is why the tilting is strange to me. IE it very well could be that I'm just more sensitive to it now, perhaps because I'm generally traveling faster. However the slight tilt back on inclines is just outright stressful on my feet and I wish I could make it stop. I haven't learned to read the tour data to look for what is happening. I may have to learn how to understand what it is showing me. I assume you mean the graph, it never made much sense to me but I have only glanced at it.

Like you I also found the differences in the Kingsong modes to be largely indiscernible. I really wish that the manufacturers would do a comprehensive write up on their modes. For a long time I just left it in hard mode until a video by Wrongway mentioned that on the Kingsong he thought the softer modes would aid the rider in starting out from a dead stop.

Click on my tour link below and you can see how the data is pretty easy to discerne. I wouldnt consider the data to be much more than general reference, but you can easily see when you are asking how much of the wheel. It sounds to me like you are just beginning to notice it more now. Having a forward tilt probably makes any dip even more noticeable. Have you set tilt to ZERO and tried the same? You know, just to see if it feels different, aside from overall angle. May as well, easy to do on the fly pretty much. I do recall thinking my first 18L was broken as a new rider. Going up an incline 180, then back down to roll away on flat, the pedal dip was freaking scary. It was a few weeks later that I simply got used to how it works. I dont really notice it now, tho Im sure it still does it.

[mrelwood]

When the 2.0 FW was published, the KS app/FW didn’t have the static tilt option. People kept calibrating their wheels to the angle they wanted, but the new FW handled it really bad. Turn the wheel 180, and a positive tilt turned into a negative one, which then slowly leveled out. They explained how the wheel must be calibrated dead level, and only introduced the static tilt setting after a community cry out. However, some of the behavior remained, mostly as a pedal dip in turns.

 It sounds like you have done everything correctly, so either there is something you have missed, or you have indeed become more sensitive, or you have simply found one of the quirks of the 18XL.

The quirk being that ever since the FW 2.0, the pedals do seem to over compensate in a way that could fit your description. I never rode the 18XL through sudden incline angle changes, so I’m not sure how disturbing it can get. But on level ground, a faster braking first makes the pedals dip slightly backwards, which the FW then levels out quite fast. This feels as if the pedals were pushing against your heels. I felt it a bit less while accelerating. The 2.08 FW might’ve lessened the effect a bit overall.

 

 Just to be sure that you know:

- During calibration the wheel must be perfectly upright both front to back as well as left to right.

- During calibration the wheel must be perfectly still.

- Since it is so picky about these, it’s sometimes useful to perform the calibration a few times.

- A softer riding mode should do exactly what you want, keeping the pedals more forward during an incline.

Edited November 11, 2021 by mrelwood

[Celt26]

Maybe you picked up on the same thing that I did. I noticed a while back that my 16X was over and under compensating on declines and inclines. On declines I felt that it was tilting me back beyond level slightly, but it was annoying af. I have the exactly same behavior on my 18 XL (sold the 16x). And that is after calibrating it perfectly on stands and trying all the different firmware versions old and new. It does the same on inclines where it slightly angles forward when climbing instead of being level. All this is regardless of the pedal setting you choose. I could really notice the differences because on my MSX it didn't exhibit any of this behavior and just stayed level. Wish King Song would stop this from happening and make it so the wheel always stays level or at the pedal angle setting you decide on.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Celt26

[rcgldr]

My Inmotion V8F and apparently most (or all) other Inmotion wheels will auto-tilt in the "proper" direction when encountering an incline | decline, tilt forwards on an incline, tilt backwards on a decline. It's like a form of cruise control that tries to maintain speed despite transitions to inclines | declines. I have pedal sensitivity at 100% (hard) and I'm using commuter mode (instead of off road).

So am I reading the posts in this thread correctly that the 18XL is tilting the "wrong" way or too much in the "proper" direction when encountering inclines or declines (tilt back on an incline or tilt forwards too much)? Is this something specific to the 18XL? In this video of a S18, it appears the pedals tilt forwards as the rider goes up the incline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hWMwK3Cfs0&t=115s

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by rcgldr

[.....]

To me, my 18xl simply feels like its trying to help me when climbing, but is slow to recognize when I all a sudden decline. @mrelwood decribed it pretty well. Its a quirk, but nothing you cant learn to deal with. Its at least a quirk that is consistent on mine. My sherman and my mten do the same, tho to a different degree. Fun is when I ride off on the ole mten BEFORE it even has time to level itself. Come to think of it, its eerily similar to what my ks does during 180s on inclines. The sherman has more of a standard pedal dip. It appears even when just making turns and accel. From what I can tell, KS does it mostly during fast grade changes only. I ride a tiny neg tilt on my KS now. It doesnt seem to effect the quirk.

[Roadpower]

Hey folks, sorry I did not follow up on this much sooner. So to answer the question by @rcgldr the wheel does not tilt in an improper direction, it tilts in the correct direction with speed. With most people I suspect this is fine, in my case it just stresses my feet a bit which I've gradually become more accustomed to over time but I still wish I could reduce that effect a little bit. I also was able to greatly reduce the aggressiveness of the "helpful" tilting in lower speed situations by putting the wheel back to hard mode.