No beeps when there should have been beeps

[Marcho]

A few months ago I graduated from a Gotway MCM5 to a KingSong 16XS.
The MCM5 always gave me rock-solid reliable warning beeps - with a wide margin of safety, well before I approached the parameters which could cause a cut-out.
Given the reputation of KingSong for safety, I had expected the same from the 16XS. 
But no. One moment I was riding steadily up a gentle incline on relatively smooth asphalt at a constant speed somewhere between 20 and 25 km/h at about 30-35% battery, wearing standard safety gear. The next millisecond I was face down on the asphalt, skidaddling along with a broken upper arm. 
Not at any time was there even the slightest hint of any warning beep, for which there would have been plenty of time. The conditions were quiet and I would have heard them. So I am puzzled as to why it happened. 
I'm not very savvy with the technology and my (wild) guess is that the alarm system was made for the 16X, but the manufacturers failed to adapt or recalibrate it to the lower battery power of the 16XS. 
Could this theory be true? Any other possible explanation?

 

[5Cauac]

Which app did you use to connect to your 16xs and was the 16xs new or used? It could be (if used) that the previous owner disabled the wheel alarms.

[.....]

Ouch, this sucks. You shouldnt be able to disable the final alarm for Kingsong wheels. I think its also not going to let you disable top speed tiltback. Don't quote me on that, as I set mine years ago and don't give it much thought.

I hate hearing this, especially since it earned you a broken arm. I can only suspect that your battery was a bit low and you overleaned it before it had a chance to warn you. Alarms that rely on voltage are not as reliable as those relying on speeds. You do make a valid question... did they not calibrate it to be more conservative, as the battery is less capacity? I hope you find the answer to this, as I can only imagine how tough it will be to trust a wheel that hurts you even once, with zero warning. Im already too paranoid and too reliant on this cheap chinese tech. Once a wheel of mine btrays me and I can't find a reason... well... it won't be sitting in THIS house. The rider being unreliable and wanky is almost too much to bear as it is.. Good luck on recovery, keep us posted what you find. At the very least, perhaps dedicate a device to the wheel so you can use EUCW. Set and monitor your OWN alarms and ease your worry by noting sag and voltages as you ride.  And it goes without saying,.... top that damn battery off, EVERY chance you get.

Edited November 9, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Marcho]

12 hours ago, 5Cauac said:

Which app did you use to connect to your 16xs and was the 16xs new or used? It could be (if used) that the previous owner disabled the wheel alarms.

I used EUC World. The 16xs was second hand, with about 2000 km on the clock. I know the seller personally and would be very surprised if they had disabled the wheel alarm. Is it technically possible? 

[Marcho]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Ouch, this sucks. You shouldnt be able to disable the final alarm for Kingsong wheels. I think its also not going to let you disable top speed tiltback. Don't quote me on that, as I set mine years ago and don't give it much thought.

I hate hearing this, especially since it earned you a broken arm. I can only suspect that your battery was a bit low and you overleaned it before it had a chance to warn you. Alarms that rely on voltage are not as reliable as those relying on speeds. You do make a valid question... did they not calibrate it to be more conservative, as the battery is less capacity? I hope you find the answer to this, as I can only imagine how tough it will be to trust a wheel that hurts you even once, with zero warning. Im already too paranoid and too reliant on this cheap chinese tech. Once a wheel of mine btrays me and I can't find a reason... well... it won't be sitting in THIS house. The rider being unreliable and wanky is almost too much to bear as it is.. Good luck on recovery, keep us posted what you find. At the very least, perhaps dedicate a device to the wheel so you can use EUCW. Set and monitor your OWN alarms and ease your worry by noting sag and voltages as you ride.  And it goes without saying,.... top that damn battery off, EVERY chance you get.

Thanks, ShanesPlanet. I agree, it would be crazy if a manufacturer allowed users to disable such a crucial alarm. If I come up with any explanation, I'll keep you in the loop.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Marcho said:

I used EUC World. The 16xs was second hand, with about 2000 km on the clock. I know the seller personally and would be very surprised if they had disabled the wheel alarm. Is it technically possible? 

Imho not. Just the beeper can be broken.

Do you here many beeps when connecting to EUC World? Then it should work.

[Marcho]

59 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Imho not. Just the beeper can be broken.

Do you here many beeps when connecting to EUC World? Then it should work.

Yes, there are 6 beeps in quick succession  when the wheel connects to EUC World, so the beeper isn't broken.

[supercurio]

Really sorry you had a fall and got hurt in the process.

To be frank, the alarms on the 16X (1554 Wh, 2x 777 Wh packs in parallel) - with double the battery power are unreliable, mainly:

• the safety margin before an alarm is not sufficient overall
• the algorithm which calculates the margin produces inconsistent results depending on battery voltage
• the alarms are nowhere near real-time enough:
  - sometimes the beep matches the power demand
  - sometimes the beep occurs after the power demand ended
  - sometimes pedals start to dip forward, and it beeps only later
• at most battery levels, above 40 km/h the safety margin is simply too low, pedals can give out on any bump in case it'll increase the power demand.

I think the worst part of the alarm implementation on the 16X is its lack of consistency.
On most wheels you can get a sense of how much margin there is before getting close to an overpower/overlean situation - where pedals give in. On the 16X, it just depends.
Then the random delays make this perception even more difficult.

Now onto the 16XS, 777 Wh.

Its max speed is 45 kph vs 50 kph on the 16X. The motor/controller are rated 2000W instead of 2200W.
IMO it just doesn't add up. It's an inadequate battery pack for the type of performance promised.
Added to the safety margin and alarm shortcomings described above, I have no doubt it would fail to alert the rider on time in some context, and while you can usually recover that on the 16X, with half the battery power.. it's much more likely to end in a crash.

IMHO the 16XS has no business existing, unless for light and conservative riders maybe. Although it won't change the limitations of the alarms.

Two workarounds possible if you want to keep riding it:

• Add a second battery pack, so it becomes essentially a slightly safer 16X thanks to (maybe) more conservative alarms
• Always ride with EUC World, setting an alarm on safety margin that you find comfortable. I have 6% set usually. 0% is the same as the wheel alarm.
  With 6%, it usually compensate for the native alarm delays in accelerations, and I'm aware of getting close to the limit of the wheel.
  In your case, I would suggest more, because it's a 16XS and since you already had an overpower-situation you could not recover from.
  So maybe 20% in your case? It will also limit your effective max speed, especially on any incline.
• Combine both solutions.

I'm working on an EUC Alarm app meant to be very robust and will add support for Kingsong wheels at some point.
I think app alarms are a must on the 16X. It's a great fun wheel, but Kingsong messed up.

Edited November 9, 2021 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

Very sorry to hear you got hurt... cutouts are the absolute worst.

Q: were you recording your tour or logging CVS on EUCWorld? If you post the logs here, folks might be able to give you a bit more insight into what happened... but honestly at that speed and assuming you don't weigh 250 lbs and didn't hit a pothole and didn't hit a bump and and and it "shouldn't" have dropped you on your face. I know it's no comfort.

Also, what firmware version are you running?

I started with a 16XS but because I was concerned about the battery not having much safety margin I spent the 500USD to add a second battery. All the wires and everything are in there, so it's plug and play... you don't have to change the control board if you can live with the lower speed limit. My wheel hasn't dropped me (yet) and I am not particularly gentle with it (off road is my thing).

I've never attempted an overlean on my wheel so I don't know that for certain but I have seen videos of it happening. I've gotten overlean alarms on my S18 though... it was badly out of calibration and when I just bounced up and down on the pedals every now and then it'd go "boop boop boop" from somewhere that wasn't the beeper. I am guessing based on that experience that wheels are easier to overlean if they're not calibrated, it'd be worth double checking calibration.

Heal up, source a second battery. It's easy insurance (and it doubles your range!).

Edited November 9, 2021 by Tawpie

[Marcho]

19 hours ago, supercurio said:

Really sorry you had a fall and got hurt in the process.

To be frank, the alarms on the 16X (1554 Wh, 2x 777 Wh packs in parallel) - with double the battery power are unreliable, mainly:

• the safety margin before an alarm is not sufficient overall
• the algorithm which calculates the margin produces inconsistent results depending on battery voltage
• the alarms are nowhere near real-time enough:
  - sometimes the beep matches the power demand
  - sometimes the beep occurs after the power demand ended
  - sometimes pedals start to dip forward, and it beeps only later
• at most battery levels, above 40 km/h the safety margin is simply too low, pedals can give out on any bump in case it'll increase the power demand.

I think the worst part of the alarm implementation on the 16X is its lack of consistency.
On most wheels you can get a sense of how much margin there is before getting close to an overpower/overlean situation - where pedals give in. On the 16X, it just depends.
Then the random delays make this perception even more difficult.

Now onto the 16XS, 777 Wh.

Its max speed is 45 kph vs 50 kph on the 16X. The motor/controller are rated 2000W instead of 2200W.
IMO it just doesn't add up. It's an inadequate battery pack for the type of performance promised.
Added to the safety margin and alarm shortcomings described above, I have no doubt it would fail to alert the rider on time in some context, and while you can usually recover that on the 16X, with half the battery power.. it's much more likely to end in a crash.

IMHO the 16XS has no business existing, unless for light and conservative riders maybe. Although it won't change the limitations of the alarms.

Two workarounds possible if you want to keep riding it:

• Add a second battery pack, so it becomes essentially a slightly safer 16X thanks to (maybe) more conservative alarms
• Always ride with EUC World, setting an alarm on safety margin that you find comfortable. I have 6% set usually. 0% is the same as the wheel alarm.
  With 6%, it usually compensate for the native alarm delays in accelerations, and I'm aware of getting close to the limit of the wheel.
  In your case, I would suggest more, because it's a 16XS and since you already had an overpower-situation you could not recover from.
  So maybe 20% in your case? It will also limit your effective max speed, especially on any incline.
• Combine both solutions.

I'm working on an EUC Alarm app meant to be very robust and will add support for Kingsong wheels at some point.
I think app alarms are a must on the 16X. It's a great fun wheel, but Kingsong messed up.

Thank you very much, SuperCurio. You have answered my question admirably. Congratulations for working on an EUC alarm app. This could be a major contribution to safety, much needed for this mode of transport which still has considerable hazards.

[Marcho]

17 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Very sorry to hear you got hurt... cutouts are the absolute worst.

Q: were you recording your tour or logging CVS on EUCWorld? If you post the logs here, folks might be able to give you a bit more insight into what happened... but honestly at that speed and assuming you don't weigh 250 lbs and didn't hit a pothole and didn't hit a bump and and and it "shouldn't" have dropped you on your face. I know it's no comfort.

Also, what firmware version are you running?

I started with a 16XS but because I was concerned about the battery not having much safety margin I spent the 500USD to add a second battery. All the wires and everything are in there, so it's plug and play... you don't have to change the control board if you can live with the lower speed limit. My wheel hasn't dropped me (yet) and I am not particularly gentle with it (off road is my thing).

I've never attempted an overlean on my wheel so I don't know that for certain but I have seen videos of it happening. I've gotten overlean alarms on my S18 though... it was badly out of calibration and when I just bounced up and down on the pedals every now and then it'd go "boop boop boop" from somewhere that wasn't the beeper. I am guessing based on that experience that wheels are easier to overlean if they're not calibrated, it'd be worth double checking calibration.

Heal up, source a second battery. It's easy insurance (and it doubles your range!).

Thanks, Tawpie. Sadly I wasn't recording the tour or logging anything when it happened. I'll have a look at the firmware version as soon as I get the chance to go down and check.

I briefly considered adding the auxiliary battery, but that would have brought the budget to an amount in the same order of magnitude as getting a more powerful wheel. Although I'm still considering the option.

How do you check the calibration?

[wheel-life]

Sorry to hear this happened. Hope you heal quickly.

Data logging will definitely give you a better idea of what happens after the fact. I try to check a few euc world data points after each trip. I've usually managed to keep my min safety margin on each ride above 15-20% but the other day I accelerated quickly for a car that was waiting on me to pass by their driveway and I knew immediately I made a mistake with my battery being somewhat low. I quickly backed off as I got hit with my 2nd and 3rd level alarms. Checked the min safety margin when I got home and I was only 6% from a cutout, probably would have just taken a second at the rate I was speeding up. The reason I'm moving up to the V12 is for that extra overhead safety margin, might be a good idea to checkout a stronger wheel instead of the 16XS if you are a bigger rider just for the overhead margin alone. Like supercurio said, seems the specs on that are mainly for light riders.

Edited November 10, 2021 by wheel-life

[Tawpie]

5 hours ago, Marcho said:

How do you check the calibration?

Just turn it on, drop a bubble level on a pedal (a phone level is pretty ok too), hold it roughly vertical side-to-side and check the reading front-to-back. If you have pedal 'tilt' set by EUCWorld (or another app) the wheel should rest at your set tilt angle. (BTW, 'tilt' isn't a great term... a more precise/accurate term is 'pitch')

When you do recalibrate, remember that the wheel needs to be vertical side to side as well as having the pedals level. The pedals have ever so slight dihedral so you can't use them for side-to-side vertical, but put your front-to-back bubble level on the pedal surface.

The recalibration procedure is pretty easy and I've found that it takes and stays quite well. But I do check every now and again.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Tawpie

[Marcho]

On 11/10/2021 at 6:15 PM, Tawpie said:

Just turn it on, drop a bubble level on a pedal (a phone level is pretty ok too), hold it roughly vertical side-to-side and check the reading front-to-back. If you have pedal 'tilt' set by EUCWorld (or another app) the wheel should rest at your set tilt angle. (BTW, 'tilt' isn't a great term... a more precise/accurate term is 'pitch')

When you do recalibrate, remember that the wheel needs to be vertical side to side as well as having the pedals level. The pedals have ever so slight dihedral so you can't use them for side-to-side vertical, but put your front-to-back bubble level on the pedal surface.

The recalibration procedure is pretty easy and I've found that it takes and stays quite well. But I do check every now and again.

Thanks Tawpie, I'll check the calibration!