Albany, NY off road vehicle law-- how much trouble should I expect?

[Skeptikos]

Some people in Albany, NY have been riding ATV's recklessly on the streets, annoying other people and causing the city council to pass an anti-off road vehicle law. The new law adds a $2,350 "redemption" fee to get a vehicle back after it's impounded by the police, and that's on top of the original $650 fine.

I don't think EUC's are technically covered by this law, but the definition they use of off road vehicles is uncomfortably broad:

Quote

 

OFF-THE-ROAD VEHICLES

All-terrain vehicles (sometimes known as “ATVs”) as that term in defined in section 2281 (1) of the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law, off-highway motorcycles as that term is defined in section 125-a of the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law, motocross or dirt bikes, dune buggies, go-carts and  any and all other types of motorized trail bikes or vehicles that are manufactured for sale or operation primarily on off-highway trails or for off highway competitions and are only incidentally operated on public highways.  Nothing contained herein, however, shall be deemed to apply to or prohibit the use of bicycles.

 

You can get the full text of the new law here.

To make it worse, I ran into (not physically) one of the off-road riders today, so I know this is actually happening pretty close to where I live and where I would tend to ride.

How much trouble should I expect from this? I've heard that unicycle-related interactions with the police in the US are generally pretty favorable-- would you expect the police to give me a hard time for having a non-standard vehicle, given the context here? I'm a pretty safety-minded rider, so I don't think there'll be any other reasons for the police to hassle me.

[GothamMike]

You should print a Label and affix it to your EUC:

NYS Class 1 

Electric Unicycle

2500 Watt Motor

20 MPH maximum speed

( I wrote mine in Chinese since they were the manufacturer.)

 

https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycles-and-other-unregistered-vehicles

 

In Connecticut it is mandatory that Class A vehicles (Almost Identical to NYS Law) be labeled as such. I placed one on my Sherman. You want to able to quickly point to the label and say "look (pointing at sticker) officer, it is a Class 1 vehicle, regulated just like a bicycle or electric wheelchair." If he asks to see your Darknessbot, you might be in trouble.

A kind word to EUC manufacturers: 100 lbs (45.3 kilos) is now the maximum weight for the US market. NYS will consider any EUC above 100 lbs a class 2 vehicle.  You don't want to go a few ounces over 100 lbs and wonder why nobody buys it.

Edited May 19, 2021 by GothamMike

[Skeptikos]

Thanks! I don't think an EUC quite counts in NYS since it's missing handlebars, but it's close enough to satisfy me at least. I'll just make sure to bookmark that on my phone somewhere just in case.

I wonder if we can get electric unicycles officially added to that list. ... I guess since I live in the capital that responsibility falls on me!

 

[GothamMike]

42 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

Thanks! I don't think an EUC quite counts in NYS since it's missing handlebars, but it's close enough to satisfy me at least. I'll just make sure to bookmark that on my phone somewhere just in case.

I wonder if we can get electric unicycles officially added to that list. ... I guess since I live in the capital that responsibility falls on me!

 

NO! if you get the law changed it will be worse!  Like I said, claim it is a Class 1 vehicle. 

[AtlasP]

That sticker claim is utterly bogus/hilarious, but then again the way the law is written/enforced is bogus, so fight fire with fire I guess. The way you cut it out around the letters makes it look super janky/unofficial though. You should print them with a smaller font in a simple rectangle and sell them online.

[Roadpower]

As a NYS resident this is of course highly interesting to me. At first I was thinking that we should write the NYS legislators to get them to clarify but I quickly realized that was a terrible idea for now. The reason being is that in general you want to be invisible to "law" makers until they have made your life impossible and then you make a stink. The less they know about you, the better.

[Skeptikos]

I've done my fair share of politics over the years and my impression is that it's better to get involved to help make sure the laws make sense. There just aren't enough EUC riders to make any real political stink after the fact if it comes to that.

Plus if you're already involved that makes your stinks 20x more effective, because you know who the important people are and how the process works.

[Roadpower]

Making sense is good if you are already affected, if not affected, stay invisible.

[GothamMike]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

That sticker claim is utterly bogus/hilarious, but then again the way the law is written/enforced is bogus, so fight fire with fire I guess. The way you cut it out around the letters makes it look super janky/unofficial though. You should print them with a smaller font in a simple rectangle and sell them online.

Ask any e-bike dealer in Connecticut. The device must be labeled. Certainly better than a "SUPREME" or sneaker sticker. 

[Surfling]

I'm glad they passed that law. The swarms of Atv/dirt bike riders is getting out of control. I was at the Astoria Park when this happened - 

 

 

[Surfling]

There's not enough EUC's rolling compared to e-scooters, e-skateboards, e-mini bikes to catch attention but as we know there's a fair amount of "speedy" NYC EUC riders out there so maybe just a matter of time before regulations take place...

[.....]

I tend to worry more about 'enforcement' than actual 'law'. Not to get into any philosophical debate, but if you arent being a problem, there mostly likely won't be a problem. Hordes of unregistered vehicles that are violating OBVIOUS laws and making lots of noise and acting like typical hooligans, is...being a problem. I had my days as a hooligan in masse, and I KNEW I was breaking the law and being an asshole to responsible tax payers. We got busted, fined, impounded and jailed. We were being a nuisance and deserved it. That was LONG before people made video of it all and taunted the authorities for fun.  Nowadays theres even MORE traffic and more audacity around every corner.

@Roadpower summed up my entire take on the thing. Stay in the shadows. Try to ride where you arent drawing attention. Enjoy the lack of legislation or lack of enforcement while you can. Inevitably, enforcement and laws will come around. No need to rush it.

@AtlasP haha, I agree. That sticker is too damn funny. Any cop that believes that bullsh*t is either retarded or just simply doesnt care.

Edited May 20, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Skeptikos]

I literally live in the state capital so staying in the shadows is not a practical option, especially if I'm wearing a reflective safety vest, LED's, etc. I'd basically have to drive to a remote location before riding.

But in between the e-scooter law, me not riding like a hooligan, and the EUC not being an off-road vehicle, I think I have a pretty persuasive case I can make to the police if it comes to that.

For me personally, though, I would appreciate having the same legal clarity as e-scooters and e-bikes. In the context in Albany I don't think riding in a legal gray area is ideal, since it risks me getting lumped in with a bunch of illegal riders.

[GothamMike]

Electric Bikes are rented on the Tappan Zee bridge, a NYS owned bridge. I think you are good. Never compare it to a ATV or dirt bike. I get lots of questions from Police, they are curious and it looks like fun. "It's regulated like an e-bike, or electric scooter."

[Skeptikos]

That sounds fun, I'll see if I can try that next time I head down to NYC

[AtlasP]

There's an easy answer here to the debate between "avoid legislation and just lay low" or "try to influence legislation".

Lobby strongly FOR decent *ebike* legalization (when it has reasonable terms/rules/numbers attached), and simultaneously AVOID any attempts to regulate EUCs specifically/by name. 

There's at least a decent chance of remotely reasonable limits for ebikes of 25 or 30 mph (and just as with cars, where you'll likely be able to get away with being a bit over those limits without too much fuss as long as you're not being reckless around other people--at which point/by 30/35 mph you'd be covering the vast majority of even enthusiast users); whereas EUCs narrowly/by themselves will never be recognized by the law as anything other than toys with crazy low limits like 12 or 15 mph. But if/as ebikes become more legal and normalized everywhere, it'll be easier for EUCs and other niche PEVs to then squeeze by as "basically the same as ebikes"/"just follow the same laws as ebikes and they'll leave you alone".

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[Roadpower]

On a tangential note I have observed that the most incredible speeders (as in amazingly fast) are the scooters. I'm quite sure I'm seeing those people doing upwards of 50MPH on pedestrian walkways. Granted that these are the highest powered and most expensive scooters but the point is that they are going to be a significant source of the legislative hammer which in turn is going to unjustifiably negatively impact us in the fallout perimeter.

[Skeptikos]

I actually forgot, Albany also has a law against riding motorized scooters on the street. But it references state law, and now that state law has changed the Albany law is incoherent.

Quote

No person shall operate a motorized scooter on public streets or roadways in the City of Albany pursuant to the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law. (§359-7)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

In regard to the debate about laws, the overall impression I have is that all these non-car traffic laws mostly aren't enforced-- the off-road vehicle stuff being an exception. And that means it doesn't make much difference either way what the law says about EUC's.

But the rare case when it makes a difference is when the police are motivated to give you a hard time (like I could imagine happening in Albany, though so far it hasn't). In that case I think it'd be a lot easier if there was a law you could point at saying you have permission to be on the road. That would make it harder for a police officer to impound your vehicle or whatever. Maybe at worst you'd get a ticket for speeding instead.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[AtlasP]

9 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

"It's a half-ebike of course.."

While that abortion of language is humorous/appalling to us, I still think it does have the potential to work in our favor in the legal realm. The law will forever treat bicycles more favorably than any other micro-vehicles--as witness the discrimination against for example skateboards and roller blades for many decades--so the more we are widely associated with just being like bicycles the better it is for us.

(My 'speech' to any officer: "It uses an air-inflated bicycle tire. It has categorically similar top speed, acceleration, and braking as a bicycle.* I use safety equipment made for mountain biking and downhill skateboarding. I wear night visibility gear/lights/etc made for bicycle safety at night. I use the same hand signals as bicyclists to indicate turns/lane changes/etc. I use a bell made for bicycles to indicate passing people/other bikes/etc where appropriate. In the context of law which can not always keep up with the fast pace of technology, the reasonable inference from a responsible law-abiding citizen is that it belongs in the same category as a bicycle and to follow the laws for a bicycle, which is what I am doing."

*[Technically it has better acceleration and slightly worse braking than a bicycle, but I'm more than comfortable saying they're in the same general category of performance in these metrics compared to all the other vehicles around them.]

Edited May 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[.....]

26 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

While that abortion of language in order game the online algorithms is appalling, it does work in our favor in the legal realm. The law will forever treat bicycles more favorably than any other micro-vehicles--as witness the discrimination against skateboards and roller blades for many decades.

Last time I argued that my toyota branded 'toy wagon' was exempt from traffic law, I was told it didnt matter what I called my vehicle, the same laws applied. Maybe I should have called it a double-moped? I also tried calling my wife a supermodel.... oddly, it didnt make it true either...

Clickbait titles, working the search algo phrases... 'deception' for personal gain is nothing new..

Edited May 21, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[VikB]

On 5/19/2021 at 12:51 PM, Skeptikos said:

How much trouble should I expect from this? I've heard that unicycle-related interactions with the police in the US are generally pretty favorable-- would you expect the police to give me a hard time for having a non-standard vehicle, given the context here? I'm a pretty safety-minded rider, so I don't think there'll be any other reasons for the police to hassle me.

Riding a motorized vehicle that's not street legal is a risk. You will probably be fine, but part of the deal with riding an EUC is being okay with facing with regulatory issues like this.  If you have bad luck you might get snagged by this law or driving an uninsured unlicensed vehicle, etc..  A lot of people are getting away with riding EUCs and not getting hassled by cops, but the more EUCs that are on the road the harder it is to fly under the radar.

Where I live there are these low powered electric motorized scooters that have tiny vestigial pedals that are meant to get them into a legal vehicle category. For years the cops ignored them, but as their numbers grew and people complained about them they started getting stopped and ticketed as uninsured/unlicensed motorcycle. Both the cops and the courts said don't waste our time point and the tiny pedals and suggesting that was a moped/e-bike.