Suspension Wheel Quality Control Issues

[Stillhart]

Hey all,

As I gain experience on my Nikola, I'm starting to realize that a suspension wheel will probably suit my riding style well (both because of some knee pain and because of the bumpy bike trails around here).  I've was following the S18 and V11 launches and then stopped following them when the pre-release discussions ran their course.  But now that both are on the streets and real people have them, I'm curious what's going on.  I don't really want to read through hundreds of pages of bickering in the respective threads so I'm looking for a summary of where things stand now.

From my research, it seems like they're both have QC issues right now.  The S18 seems to be having more frequent and more severe issues.  The V11 seems to have fewer issues and they seem to be addressing them quickly.  Without getting into the actual differences between the wheels, it seems like the V11 is the safer bet right now (with current orders going into batch 3).

As to differences in the wheels, it seems like the S18 is more suited to aggressive offroad riding (Chooch style) while the V11 is more suited to cushy street cruising.  It also seems like the S18 has some serious safety issues with the smaller battery/bigger motor combo.  Oh and I think I read that the S18 requires a lot more maintenance than the V11?

I guess where I'm going with this is twofold:

1 - Is it even worth considering the S18 at this point if I don't ride offroad?  That seems to be its only strong point, and that's if you ignore the quality and safety red flags.

2 - Even if the V11 is the better choice, is it still too soon to get one?  I don't want to be a QA tester for InMotion, I just want a wheel that works.  Should I be waiting beyond batch 3 or is batch 3 a safe bet?

[Scottie]

I am having  similar thoughts. I rode with a guy a couple times that just got an S18 just over a month ago. It took him a little bit to dial in the suspension and it seems to work well enough for him. He is on the lighter side like Chooch, so the battery works well enough for him. He get good range and speed out of it. IMHO, I would think that somebody over 170 pounds might want to think carefully about how they ride it.

I was holding off on ordering the V11, but there are people here praising their production wheel, so I took a leap of faith and just put in the order. I am hoping it turns out like the 16X. I ordered that just after a few fixes went in production. It has worked flawlessly for me.    

[mrelwood]

My view on these atm:

7 hours ago, Stillhart said:

1 - Is it even worth considering the S18 at this point if I don't ride offroad? 

The S18 is not yet a worthy consideration no matter where you ride. While even a nearly stuck suspension will be an epiphany to many riders who haven’t ridden a suspension EUC before, there are many build and some design issues as well. KS needs a good amount of time to resolve these if they want the S18 to be worthy of it’s asking price.

Btw, the S18 can only fit a low profile street tire. I don’t know why it would be seen as an off-road EUC.

7 hours ago, Stillhart said:

2 - Even if the V11 is the better choice, is it still too soon to get one?

So far the weak saddle brackets have been the only clear design issue, which is to be fixed for batch 3. All other issues have been one-offs or otherwise extremely rare occurrences. To me there are older models still being sold that have more and/or more severe issues than the current V11. And as you said, IM is on top of the game attacking all issues, big and small, common and rare. The warranty works well, at least for factory preorders.

But as you probably know already, a certain level of DIY attitude is required for any EUC. Warranty issues are usually solved by shipping you the spare parts which you have to install yourself. The tire change is much more involved than on a bicycle. Etc. So while you can’t expect a faultless new Tesla car owner’s experience, the V11 was already a top class wheel the day it came out.

[Stillhart]

So, big update... I got to ride both the V11 and S18 today, thanks to Zen Lee.  Both are batch 1 and both have been problem free for him.

After riding both of them I came to an important conclusion:  you can read and watch videos all day long but riding them is something else.  I went in wanting to make sure the V11 felt good to me and just trying the S18 because I could.  I cam out of it thinking I might order an S18 instead of the V11.

The deciding factor for me is just how the S18 feels compared to the V11, and I'm not talking about the suspensions (I'll get to those in a minute).  But basically, the S18 just felt more natural and easy to ride to me.  It's small and nimble and agile so it's easy to manipulate, yet it's also very stable when cruising thanks to the giant tire.  It also felt a little peppier off the line. 

The S18 isn't perfect.  The handle functionality is kinda weird, everyone has talked about that.  And the contact points against my leg weren't particularly comfortable.  I'd want to pad it up with aftermarket pads if I got one for sure.  It was also squeaky/creaky and didn't have the quality feel when seen up close (the opposite of the V11 which exudes quality in person).

The V11 is TALL.  I'm 6'0" tall and so it's not uncomfortable for me.  But trying to flop the wheel around between my feet make the top swing around and hit the inside of my legs up by my knee.  It's not a big deal it doesn't hurt, it's not uncomfortable, but it makes me NOTICE the wheel.  It makes me more aware of what I'm doing riding the wheel and that feeling in the back of my mind all the time takes away my focus from other things like just enjoying myself or watching for killer bus drivers.  Oh and that pendulum effect makes any minor wobbles feel like major wobbles.  There's also the fact that the pedals are much higher than anything I've ridden and so mounting is a bit of an adventure.

I think it's quite possible (and even likely) that I could get used to those things about the V11 and never think about them again.  Then again, it's possible I may not.  The S18 just felt effortless and that's something I really like.

Suspension-wise, well I'll say up front that Zen setup the V11 for my weight (~175lbs) but not the S18 (setup for his weight at ~140lbs).  That said, I didn't notice a huge difference between the suspensions on the two.  I did think the V11 felt a little more smooth overall, but I also felt like that's not always a good thing.  The S18 felt like more of a "sporty" suspension whose job it is to keep the wheel touching the road at all times, not to make your knees comfortable... again not always a good thing.  The classic example here is hitting a bump mid corner -- a softer suspension will get wobbly and on a unicycle that's bad news.  A harder suspension should eat it up no problem.  But on a straight road, the harder suspension will feel less cushioned, you'll feel more of the bumps. 

All that said, I think the S18 can be configured to feel like the V11 suspension but I doubt the V11 has the ability to feel like a tight sport suspension.  Whether you want it to is kind of the question.  Also, just to be perfectly clear, I think the difference is pretty subtle overall; I don't think it's all that noticeable if you;re just tooling around and doing nothing crazy. 

...

So yeah, I do like both wheels and I wouldn't kick a V11 out of bed, as the saying goes.  But I find myself leaning toward the Ducati Monster S18 over the Harley Ultraglide V11.  Now I just need to do more research on the S18 and make sure I'm not buying a poor quality, high maintenance death trap as some videos would have me believe.

[Stillhart]

14 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

My view on these atm:

The S18 is not yet a worthy consideration no matter where you ride. While even a nearly stuck suspension will be an epiphany to many riders who haven’t ridden a suspension EUC before, there are many build and some design issues as well. KS needs a good amount of time to resolve these if they want the S18 to be worthy of it’s asking price.

Btw, the S18 can only fit a low profile street tire. I don’t know why it would be seen as an off-road EUC.

So far the weak saddle brackets have been the only clear design issue, which is to be fixed for batch 3. All other issues have been one-offs or otherwise extremely rare occurrences. To me there are older models still being sold that have more and/or more severe issues than the current V11. And as you said, IM is on top of the game attacking all issues, big and small, common and rare. The warranty works well, at least for factory preorders.

But as you probably know already, a certain level of DIY attitude is required for any EUC. Warranty issues are usually solved by shipping you the spare parts which you have to install yourself. The tire change is much more involved than on a bicycle. Etc. So while you can’t expect a faultless new Tesla car owner’s experience, the V11 was already a top class wheel the day it came out.

Thanks for your take on these.  Regarding the bolded part, aren't we between batches right now on the S18?  Isn't the assumption that they're going to be fixing some of these issues with the next batch?  Are you suggesting waiting to see if they're actually fixed, or are you suggesting that they haven't indicated any plans to fix the problems?

I'm really torn now because I genuinely liked the S18.  But I don't want a "project", I want something that will just work for the most part. 

[eve]

29 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Thanks for your take on these.  Regarding the bolded part, aren't we between batches right now on the S18?  Isn't the assumption that they're going to be fixing some of these issues with the next batch?  Are you suggesting waiting to see if they're actually fixed, or are you suggesting that they haven't indicated any plans to fix the problems?

I'm really torn now because I genuinely liked the S18.  But I don't want a "project", I want something that will just work for the most part. 

Wait for batch 3. Jack said there will be some fixes but dont know which. 

The good thing is. This wheel is super comfortable too disassemble. 

This is my first wheel and i disassembled it no problem. Never done anything like it before.

Edited September 13, 2020 by eve

[mrelwood]

Getting to test both wheels is a huge benefit when deciding. I got to do so only right after receiving my V11, but I felt very differently about the S18 than you did, and the list of absolutely no-nos for me on the S18 were a mile long. It seems that there are big differences in how the individual units ride.

 

1 hour ago, Stillhart said:

I doubt the V11 has the ability to feel like a tight sport suspension.

Sure it has. Pump up the main chamber +20 lbs over the recommended, and pump the negative chamber at 60% of the positive. It will be very tight and controlled, and handle large jumps no problem. The blanket recommendation of 50lbs in the negative doesn’t work well for other than 75-80kg riders.

1 hour ago, Stillhart said:

Thanks for your take on these.  Regarding the bolded part, aren't we between batches right now on the S18?  Isn't the assumption that they're going to be fixing some of these issues with the next batch?  Are you suggesting waiting to see if they're actually fixed, or are you suggesting that they haven't indicated any plans to fix the problems?

Sure, they have said that “they’ll fix stuff”, but fe. the tire rubbing issues were promised to be fixed for the production version in response to the pre-production feedback, but it never came to fruition. That’s why I definitely recommend waiting until the issues are actually fixed.

[Mark Wilson]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Btw, the S18 can only fit a low profile street tire. I don’t know why it would be seen as an off-road EUC.

While I really wish KingSong had simply made the fender with a larger clearance for different tires, you can at least fit a smaller off-road tire. Here is an example:

As for the S18 vs V11 debate, I think that the reason some people like the S18 better is because of the control. Watching experienced riders quickly being able to do jumps and advanced riding on the S18 makes me think that the S18 is designed around giving the rider the best control over the wheel (also the rebound adjust-ability helps with this). So for me, the S18 design philosophy seems to be more suited to my riding style. That being said, the execution by KingSong to actually make this wheel has been pretty terrible so far. I too am waiting to see how they improve the S18 in future batches and if they can't, I'll be upgrading to a different wheel.

[Stillhart]

27 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Sure, they have said that “they’ll fix stuff”, but fe. the tire rubbing issues were promised to be fixed for the production version in response to the pre-production feedback, but it never came to fruition. That’s why I definitely recommend waiting until the issues are actually fixed.

Ah, thanks, this is really useful information and based on it, I'd have to agree that waiting seems prudent.

The V11 and the S18 definitely have different feels to them, I can see how someone would have a strong preference for one over the other.  But having ridden it myself, I can now see what people like Chooch and Kuji see in it.  If (and that's a big if) you get one without any major issues, it's a fun little wheel.