Clem604 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 1 hour ago, techyiam said: Eevees is now letting people ride the Sherman-L. It seems to me Leaper Kim is going upscale. I think it gets its light-on-its-feet feel from the Lynx's DNA. However, I can still feel the inertia of the 4000 Ah battery. I am not used to riding range wheels (3600+ Wh), but for you, you may find it an upgrade. Using car analogy, maybe Audi A6? It has a solid, premium quality feel to it. Thanks for letting me know! I'll have to go down sometime for a test ride. I really want the L but that price 🤯 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 1 hour ago, Clem604 said: I really want the L but that price 🤯 Yup. I hear ya. I like how the Lynx ride, but for the price, I'm going wait and see if a Lynx killer will show up. Also, I don't feel the need, nor as strong an urge to get a better wheel since I am completely happy with my S22 (after much work), and my S16 Pro. I have to say though, the manufacturers are doing a good job in enticing us. 😀 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Pricing is ridiculous, but the Leaperkim quality is also. Might just be better waiting a year and buying a lightly used one off marketplace. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiiijojjo Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Mango said: Pricing is ridiculous, but the Leaperkim quality is also. Might just be better waiting a year and buying a lightly used one off marketplace. I'm hoping someone in my area puts a 2nd hand Lynx for sale at a good price (because they want SL) then I'll ride that until someone puts their SL for sale, or until I see something I like for a reasonable price. Edited July 17 by xiiijojjo 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 20 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: It works fine but it’s not the best design. If “good enough” was good enough we’d still be riding the original Sherman. These are simple fixes that don’t increase costs and aren’t difficult to implement, but would make the wheels more ridged, simpler, and more durable. That’s my option anyway. Philosophically speaking, nothing will ever reach the pinnacle of what we consider a "perfect 20 inch suspension wheel," so every iteration is an attempt to get as close to the pinnacle as possible. One change of the pedal hanging from the Sherman S to the Lynx and SL is that the pedal mounts are replaceable on the newer wheels, mounted on the body, instead of molded into the body like the S. That's better for reliability for sure. Furthermore, the bodies of the Lynx and SL are two singular pieces rather than bisected into four separate pieces. It seems Leaperkim's logic is that making the body constructed with as few solid pieces as possible will make for rigidity. This may be a different philosophy from your concept, so any rigidity improvements beyond the SL may continue to stray from your concept. Lastly, what confuses me about the rigidity concerns is how much it actually affects the ride of the wheels. I tested my SS for play (over 1400 miles on the odometer?) and it had barely any. In fact, the part where I got the most play is from the tire, which is supposed to provide give for stability and shock absorption. I've also noticed that tires like the Heidenau K66 make the SS almost too agile in comparison to the Shinko 244 or the Kenda 340A. At 46 mph (my top speed so far) I don't get speed wobbles, in a straight line, or when avoiding potholes (and this is on the 340A tire). I seriously can't complain about play on my SS because it doesn't effectively reduce my ride quality. (I was 200lbs with gear for those experiences). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem604 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Duster said: I tested my SS for play (over 1400 miles on the odometer?) and it had barely any. No play on my SS and I am at 12,742 miles (20,000 km's). I just put my V11 up for sale so that should help subsidize my Sherman L purchase should I decide to do so. Edited July 17 by Clem604 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 There seems to be a large discrepancy between LeaperKim suspension wheel owners that experience no play in their wheels and people who don't own a LeaperKim suspension wheel complaining about LeaperKim suspension wheels having play, it's very curious. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skampster Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 No play in both my Lynx and SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul g Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 (edited) 23 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: Firstly it increases the amount of fasteners which is not a good thing. More parts and more chance for things to come loose. This statement is mind boggling. So, in your opinion, if you have only one screw is better for safety then having, let’s say, two or more, that would offer redundancy?! If the only screw fails there is no redundancy so you can screw it happily 🤦♂️ ?! Actually there is almost a science of redundancy in designing all forms of transportation, beginning with aerospace to cars, where redundancy is paramount. You may say you hate the amount of screws from the perspective of maintenance, which is a pretty fair statement. 23 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: Secondly it’s simply not as ridged. Less direct connection holding together 3 parts with multiple small screws. By now I concluded that your knowledge of engineering is pretty much null. But you’re trying hard, which is applaudable. Edited July 17 by Paul g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteWheelie Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) 8 hours ago, Paul g said: This statement is mind boggling. So, in your opinion, if you have only one screw is better for safety then having, let’s say, two or more, that would offer redundancy?! If the only screw fails there is no redundancy so you can screw it happily 🤦♂️ ?! Actually there is almost a science of redundancy in designing all forms of transportation, beginning with aerospace to cars, where redundancy is paramount. You may say you hate the amount of screws from the perspective of maintenance, which is a pretty fair statement. No, having a design which requires the least amount of fasteners possible, reduces part count, and makes parts multifunctional where possible is better. I'm very pro redundancy on e-wheels, but just spamming poorly thought out parts together and adding tons of small fasteners everywhere to mash it all together does not equal redundancy. In my opinion these are not highly engineered devices in their current form. Just about every single wheel that's come out has had issues, many of them major issues, from axle bolts breaking, shit not tightened from the factory, little to no water proofing, bad quality/wrong materials at times, hall sensors or capacitors not properly secured, using freaking wood screws into plastic etc. etc. etc. They're literally leaning as they go, and we're the beta testers for their questionable engineering. I'm not even annoyed by that, it's just the reality and some of it is inevitable anyway with this segment being so new still. The companies have been improving pretty rapidly, while also implementing some suggestions/fixes from users because they didn't know better, and/or had to be pushed to implement them. 8 hours ago, Paul g said: By now I concluded that your knowledge of engineering is pretty much null. But you’re trying hard, which is applaudable. I'm not an engineer, but do you think the way LeaperKim joins the forks together is better than something like this? Edited July 18 by InfiniteWheelie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 How many owners have inverted there sherman/patton/lynx pinned the peddles between there legs then manipulated the wheel. If you observe the gaps between the battery and motor mounts you'll be surprised by the play, remember you on the wheel will move it more then you can with your hands. Each fastace has 2 seals to limit the x and y movement of the motor side of the shock and keep the oil in, no other components stop that movement. It works but your asking 4 oil seals to restrain a lot of movement with that force having good leverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul g Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) 4 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: using freaking wood screws into plastic etc. etc. Despite what you hear on youtube from some riders “wood screws” , as you call them, is what is required, from an engineering point of view, to hold plastics together- because the wood and plastics have similar mechanical properties. The design of the wheels can be improved, but they’ve made big progress from plastic to metal body, from non-suspension to suspension, from lack of BMS to smart BMS and the Leaperkim suspension can be improved and get on a par with Begode, but we have’n seen that yet. Edited July 18 by Paul g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 1 minute ago, Paul g said: Leaperkim suspension can be improved and get on a par with Begode, but we have’n seen that yet. Do you mean the other way around ? LeaperKim suspension is currently better than Begode suspension, it's the main selling point for a lot of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul g Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Just now, Rawnei said: Do you mean the other way around ? LeaperKim suspension is currently better than Begode suspension, it's the main selling point for a lot of people. Was referring to the rigidity of the wheel in the well given by the suspension ( not allowing rotation angle, and touching the sides walls with the tire ) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 1 minute ago, Paul g said: Was referring to the rigidity of the wheel in the well given by the suspension ( not allowing rotation angle, and touching the sides walls with the tire ) . It's a pretty weird comparison to make since we have Begode suspension breaking down for folks in various ways, too thinly machined parts snapping, suspension locking up and whatnot, lots of different issues plaguing Begode suspension design, yet here are we are comparing rigidity and saying it's better. 🙄 Couple examples: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/6805375896226982/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/7394433923987840/ Show me LeaperKim suspension that actually had problems related to rigidity or mounting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) 6 hours ago, timmytool said: How many owners have inverted there sherman/patton/lynx pinned the peddles between there legs then manipulated the wheel. If you observe the gaps between the battery and motor mounts you'll be surprised by the play, Look, I've manipulated my wheel like one of the previous video posted on this thread, and the most play I got was from moving the tire (as was shown in the video) and not moving the rim. The rim had minimal play (do you think that with this forum full of nerds that we haven't seen play on bicycles, motorcycles, or cars that are within tolerances?) Again, your tire will deflect way more than your rim does. Unless you show me a play demonstration that doesn't manipulate the tires and instead looks at rim movement, I can't blindly believe in such suggested results. Even further, I wouldn't be able to accept the results unless other wheels were down side-by-side, AND had comparable use/wear and tear. Just calling out play as a sign of poor quality is a poor argument when rider experience suggests that it doesn't matter. Do you ride these wheels? Have you compared the play and ride quality of a Leaperkim suspension wheel to another brand? When many like the SS, Patton, and Lynx for their performance and stability, what argument do you have that isn't nitpicking and cherry picking? Edited July 18 by Duster Autocorrect typo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) 12 hours ago, Rawnei said: Show me LeaperKim suspension that actually had problems related to rigidity or mounting. I'm guessing the concern (related to the general rigidity of the suspension regardless of the implementation-just to clarify for you @duster) is probably stemming from this observation on the Patton... Edited July 18 by The Brahan Seer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 4 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said: I'm guessing the concern is probably stemming from this observation on the Patton... I've seen comments on the Falcon thread mentioning keeping the kickstand on for rigidity. It seems to be a general area of concern for all wheels. What comments on this thread are showing concern for seems to be about how the suspension is the primary point of contact between the wheel and the body. The argument is that the 8 screws at the top of the suspension being the "only" point of contact with the body would make for a suggested unacceptable amount of play in comparison to wheels with slider systems. However, what appears to be overlooked is that the susoension's bracket for said 8 screws slides into a holster within the body of Leaperkim wheels. Furthermore, the motor mounts (the wheel's contacts to the suspension) are also kept within a channel in the bodies, which acts vaguely as a slider mechanism. If anything, those arguing that there is play in Leaperkim wheels should be focusing on this area as a method of implementing sliders and increasing rigidity. I have seen one or two people suggesting that this is a difference Extreme Bull wheels have in comparison to Leaperkim wheels. I'd say lean into that and show the real-world comparison between the two solutions of fork suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul g Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 3 hours ago, Duster said: I've seen comments on the Falcon thread mentioning keeping the kickstand on for rigidity. It seems to be a general area of concern for all wheels. What comments on this thread are showing concern for seems to be about how the suspension is the primary point of contact between the wheel and the body. The argument is that the 8 screws at the top of the suspension being the "only" point of contact with the body would make for a suggested unacceptable amount of play in comparison to wheels with slider systems. However, what appears to be overlooked is that the susoension's bracket for said 8 screws slides into a holster within the body of Leaperkim wheels. Furthermore, the motor mounts (the wheel's contacts to the suspension) are also kept within a channel in the bodies, which acts vaguely as a slider mechanism. If anything, those arguing that there is play in Leaperkim wheels should be focusing on this area as a method of implementing sliders and increasing rigidity. I have seen one or two people suggesting that this is a difference Extreme Bull wheels have in comparison to Leaperkim wheels. I'd say lean into that and show the real-world comparison between the two solutions of fork suspension. ☝️That could be an explanation. There is a play in there, but as we notice, very few owners actually complain about it. Most just learn to live with it even if it means accepting some minor inconveniences. There are still a lot of things to improve in the designs we see now and that is the most exciting part, that we are witnessing all of this and we are part of it. We are lucky to live in the Golden Age of Personal Electrical Transfart 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skampster Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 I’m probably not the one who would get affected, I don’t do jumps or stairs etc, but I’ve never once noticed anything like what’s been complained about with both my SS and Lynx. Now my 16X wheel rubs if I ride one legged. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteWheelie Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) Another thing, if they went with a pedal hanger design like the one I showed (coming off the suspension), it might save weight. The battery cases would no longer be bearing rider weight, and could be made out of a tough plastic with strong abrasion resistance like Nylon 6. Another benefit is slower heat transfer from extreme hot/cold weather. If it wasn’t obvious from that MS paint drawing, the pedal hangers would be about the same depth as the battery cases (roughly 2”). That would make them extremely stiff in that direction, which is where most of the flex happens. They could be pretty thin and made of steel. Edited July 19 by InfiniteWheelie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 2 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: The battery cases would no longer be bearing rider weight, and could be made out of a tough plastic with strong abrasion resistance like Nylon 6. I doubt the industry would go back to complete plastic bodies for performance wheels (ignoring the V13). However, I could see some sort of plastic magnesium hybrid, where the battery boxes are the nylon you mention and are encapsulated by a metal body that's as minimal as a still cage. I'm imagining something like the original Sherman, but with more of the core structural components being metal. One issue with that, though, is that Leaperkim seems to prioritize using metal to protect batteries (for its resistance against impacts), and using plastic outside the metal to be sacrificial material that protects the metal. The plastic battery case idea goes against their philosophy and would require a major change. Furthermore, wouldn't plastic deform over time, or become somewhat brittle with sun exposure? I'm no engineer, but Leaperkim seems to have struck a balance between metal and plastic (they already use plastic on the inner sides of the battery cases). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteWheelie Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 (edited) @Duster There's a big difference between run of the mill plastic like ABS and advanced engineering plastics. For example, I believe Nylon 6 is used for planetary gears in hub motors, and it's used by Nylonove for their aftermarket pedals (best on the market in my opinion, I bought a set). These different engineering plastics have mixes of various characteristics like low weight, high abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, UV resistance, heat resistance, high fatigue life, strength, toughness etc. They can be a very good alternative to metal and sometimes better depending on the application. They seem like a good option for battery cases in my opinion. Edited July 19 by InfiniteWheelie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 7 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: @Duster There's a big difference between run of the mill plastic like ABS and advanced engineering plastics. For example, I believe Nylon 6 is used for planetary gears in hub motors, and it's used by Nylonove for their aftermarket pedals (best on the market in my opinion, I bought a set). These different engineering plastics have mixes of various characteristics like low weight, high abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, UV resistance, heat resistance, high fatigue life, strength, toughness etc. They can be a very good alternative to metal and sometimes better depending on the application. They seem like a good option for battery cases in my opinion. I hadn't heard of solar resistance being mixed into plastic before, with things like tires and plastic trim on cars being coated with UV resistance instead. Interesting. I wonder what it would take, engineering-wise, for a Veteran design with more plastic to be comparable in durability, rigidity, etc. Would there need to be any special internal patterns (triangles and other stuff) to increase structural support, or would that be an opportunity to provide increased support? Maybe Inmotion could be the pioneers of this and make a 20" wheel that challenges the Sherman L? (I've heard they did plastic well on the V13.) Heck, does Inmotion even have a 20" suspension wheel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 8 minutes ago, Duster said: Heck, does Inmotion even have a 20" suspension wheel? Okay, yes, the V11. It's been out so long that I completely forgot.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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