Getting it moving forward

[markusgarvey]

Newbie rider question: I have 4 miles on the Veteran Patton now. My question is how to get going forward when I first mount. I am struggling to lean forward enough to get the EUC moving. The Patton has a setting called PAA - which seems to adjust the angle of lean at balance point. Does setting this to some negative value (like - 6%) help to get the EUC leaning forward when you first step up onto it, and thus moving forward more readily? I have tried throwing my arms out in front, and even bending at the waist, but still struggling to move forward. Thanks for the advice.

[Hellkitten]

Try using soft mode. It will lean forward much easier. Possibly move you feet a bit more forward on the pedals. Are you using any pads on your wheel?

[Roadpower]

You probably already know this but I thought I'd make it explicit, you need to mount and roll in one coordinated move, not mount and then roll. And as Hellkitten suggested, try the soft mode (or whatever it is that they are calling what is an assisted mode).

Welcome to the forum!

[markusgarvey]

Thank you - I will try that. Did not know about soft mode.

Do you guys ride in soft mode all the time?

Yes, I am using pads.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by markusgarvey

[rcgldr]

Anything less than hard mode just delays the response while waiting for the wheel to tilt forwards before accelerating forwards. In hard mode, the EUC will accelerate immediately in response to exerting a forward torque onto the EUC. The pedal tilt angle doesn't make much difference. A rider has to exert a forwards torque onto the EUC in order to cause the EUC to accelerate. If the EUC frame is not tilting forwards | backwards, then the torque exerted by the rider is the same as the torque the motor exerts onto the wheel+tire.

Try leaning forwards as you step on so that you're already leaning forwards by the time you get your second foot on. Being able to ride slow also helps. Wrong Way posted a video of Kate (Monokat) free mounting on a 77 lb Sherman for the first time, and she gets it on her second try, but she had ridden 60 to 80 km using support to mount and launch before her first attempt to free mount in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc&t=634s

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by rcgldr

[Roadpower]

1 hour ago, markusgarvey said:

Thank you - I will try that. Did not know about soft mode.

Do you guys ride in soft mode all the time?

Mode selection is subjective but I suspect that many riders prefer hard or unassisted mode. Even changing between the modes won't necessarily be immediately clear to you in feed back but again this is subjective and dependent on the manufacture design. For some people the differences are night and day, other people can find the different modes to be vague. You really just need to try the different modes for yourself so you can feel what is happening under you.

Personally I have at times disliked the assisted modes because it can feel like the wheel has a mind of its own doing things that can spook a person, on the other hand once you learn what to expect you can really like what the wheel is doing. Hence why this is subjective.

[UniVehje]

5 hours ago, markusgarvey said:

Do you guys ride in soft mode all the time?

Depends on what I’m doing. Often harder mode for offroading and softer for long distances. It’s not a matter of better or worse. And the feel will change between manufacturers, so there really is no general rule to follow. Better to use soft or medium until you have mastered the basics and can feel the difference yourself. But in general, softer modes are easier to accelerate. 

[DjPanJan]

I prefer Medium on patton.

Soft mode i can feel delay and dont like it specilaly for braking.

Hard/Strong mode i feel too soon pain in legs compare to medium/soft.

For context:

Msp HT =medium

KS16X= hard

Mten4= Hard

Sherman classic= Medium

V10F= Hard mode(max slider)

Patton = Medium(prefer)

Any firmware update can lead to completly change how pedal hardness work.

I speak like heavy rider i think this is big factor if i lean big mass is moving forward and on any mode i have stron response from EUC i no need lock to pads just by leaning i can achieve strong imput.

For moving forward use kick scooter technique start ride one leg and "join" second leg after some seconds.

 

 

[Paul g]

11 hours ago, markusgarvey said:

Newbie rider question: I have 4 miles on the Veteran Patton now. My question is how to get going forward when I first mount. I am struggling to lean forward enough to get the EUC moving. The Patton has a setting called PAA - which seems to adjust the angle of lean at balance point. Does setting this to some negative value (like - 6%) help to get the EUC leaning forward when you first step up onto it, and thus moving forward more readily? I have tried throwing my arms out in front, and even bending at the waist, but still struggling to move forward. Thanks for the advice.

    When I was learning to ride the wheel I had my setting on soft and I was struggling to mount it because the wheel didn’t seem to immediately respond to my input (lean). So I immediately realised it must be in soft from the factory, I’ve change it to hard and I had no more issues mounting it. When learning immediate response from the wheel is essential. Plus, just as others stated before, you must give it a good kick before you mount it, just like you do to a bike, to start rolling. Good luck!

Edited August 16, 2023 by Paul g

[Paul g]

    I know it is confusing for you as some people tell you “try soft mode” and others tell you exactly the opposite “try hard mode”. That is because some people already learned to ride on a small (not powerful) wheel and then passed onto big wheels where it is easier to ride in soft mode (if you already know how to ride, that is  ).  But because you learn to ride on a heavy, powerful wheel, it is not indicating to start in soft mode, as you won’t have the wheel responding to you immediately. I’ve learned on a V12 and it was difficult in soft mode because it is a heavy wheel, for you to learn on Patton that is twice the power of V12 and almost 50% heavier(it actually feels twice as heavy because it also has suspension and you have less leverage) it would be even more difficult, you have to fight with a tank.

[Funky]

Simply start falling on your face. Do the "trust fall" but forwards.. Yes - you literally need to start to fall. (Feet planted on pedals.) Euc will simply catch you falling, by starting to ride/move forwards. At the end you will not fall, but you will start going.

I had the same issue - i could not get the euc to move forwards. I was literally standing on pedals for 2-3 seconds, before loosing balance and stepping off. Some days later i had enough and i did the "superman" lean. By simply starting to fall on my face - it did the trick, i started to ride.

Do this >>>  You won't fall, when you are on EUC.

Also try placing 1/3 foot over pedals front.. It will let you start riding more easily. I'm riding almost always 1/3 of my foot over pedal front. You need to have your ankles same position as pedal "L" brackets. (At first it was scary to ride like that..)

More foot over the pedal - the more easy it will be to ride without leaning at all. As your weight will be already positioned in front of euc, making euc go forwards. (Same time you lose braking power.. As your weight is in front of euc. You will need to brake way harder, compared to "balanced" foot placement.)

Edited August 16, 2023 by Funky

[markusgarvey]

Excellent info - thank you to all. 

Yesterday I tried out the Soft Mode and found I could not tell the difference at all. Now I at least know how this applies - thanks to all this explanation. I have only 5 miles on the wheel so far and I am already stepping up and getting going about 30% of the time. So hopefully I will get there. Will try the Superman lean next.

[eezo]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:46 AM, markusgarvey said:

Excellent info - thank you to all. 

Yesterday I tried out the Soft Mode and found I could not tell the difference at all. Now I at least know how this applies - thanks to all this explanation. I have only 5 miles on the wheel so far and I am already stepping up and getting going about 30% of the time. So hopefully I will get there. Will try the Superman lean next.

Most of this skill is simply getting good at stepping onto and balancing on the wheel when it's at a standstill. With a small/light wheel, there is a huge range of side to side tilt within which you can exert leg pressure to keep the wheel upright. With a heavy wheel, it's a much narrower window, so most of the learning involves keeping the wheel upright. With practice, you'll learn the angle range you need so that you can step on without it tilting to the point you can't recover from. All you really need is 1-2 seconds maximum to be able to keep the wheel upright while you get rolling, so just practice stepping on and off without going anywhere. If you get to a point where you can keep it upright for 2 seconds consistently, that's all you need.

Edited August 17, 2023 by eezo

[rcgldr]

5 hours ago, eezo said:

Most of this skill is simply getting good at stepping onto and balancing on the wheel when it's at a standstill. With a small/light wheel, there is a huge range of side to side tilt within which you can exert leg pressure to keep the wheel upright. With a heavy wheel, it's a much narrower window

Usually the idea is to push forward so the wheel is not at a standstill, but at least moving very slowly. In Wrong Way's how to ride video, Kate (Monokat) is shown free mounting for the first time on a 77 lb Sherman, and she gets it on her second attempt (she already knew how to ride, including riding slow, before trying free mount)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc&t=654s

Lighter wheels normally have thinner tires and are less stable at slow speed. In this video you can see how unstable and wobbly the small EUC is (probably 1.95 inch wide tire) is at slower speed, and how stable the Z10 (4 inch wide tire) is at the same slow speed by comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-dDOxvmzvQ&t=202s

 

[eezo]

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Usually the idea is to push forward so the wheel is not at a standstill, but at least moving very slowly. In Wrong Way's how to ride video, Kate (Monokat) is shown free mounting for the first time on a 77 lb Sherman, and she gets it on her second attempt (she already knew how to ride, including riding slow, before trying free mount)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc&t=654s

Lighter wheels normally have thinner tires and are less stable at slow speed. In this video you can see how unstable and wobbly the small EUC is (probably 1.95 inch wide tire) is at slower speed, and how stable the Z10 (4 inch wide tire) is at the same slow speed by comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-dDOxvmzvQ&t=202s

 

Respectfully, you ride a V8F, this isn't really your area of expertise. Fast forward to the section of the first exercise. This is what I'm saying to do. 

 

[rcgldr]

6 hours ago, eezo said:

Respectfully, you ride a V8F, this isn't really your area of expertise.

Which is why I looked at videos made by experts for learning how to ride, in addition to my knowledge of physics. As for the video you posted, a riders' leg(s) don't support the EUC, a riders' leg(s) (and the EUC) supports the rider, and the ground supports both EUC and rider. If riding or starting with one foot, the rider needs to shift weight and tilt the EUC so that the center of mass remains directly above the contact patch, and the rider needs to press against the upper pad to generate a torque to oppose the torque from standing on one pedal only. The amount of pressure against the upper pad is greater for a shorter EUC (less leverage) and less for a taller EUC (more leverage). EUC Girl weighs around 80 lbs, and doesn't have an issue launching on a 110+ lb V13, since she's compensating left|right balance for her weight and not the weight of the V13. A rider does need to lean forwards|backwards more on a heavier EUC, because the torque the rider exerts onto the EUC is the same as the torque the motor exerts onto the wheel + tire (otherwise the EUC frame would be rotating forwards|backwards). Similarly, a rider will need to exert more torque to tilt an EUC left|right to compensate for more angular momentum of the rotating parts. There are very few riders, if any, that can balance at a standstill for more than brief moments. Most riders (including experts) use a pendulum motion as a way to stay in place. I do agree with the video that higher pedals are more difficult to free mount with.

For beginners, both Kuji Rolls and Wrong Way recommend using support to mount and launch, and wait until the beginner can ride reasonably well before doing free mount, in which case, free mount is usually not an issue. Many riders have learned to ride by free mounting, but it's more tiring due to having to remount every time the rider bails. Kate in Wrong Way's video had ridden 60 to 80 km on various EUCs before doing her first free mount on that 77 lb Sherman (which she got on her second try). The girl in Kuji's video never free mounts. I waited till day 5 before I did a free mount and got it on my third attempt after compensating for my only time on a grassy field. The rider that introduced me to EUCs is a commuter and he's never bothered to learn how to one foot glide or any other tricks, as he's only interested in using his EUCs for commuting. As an analogy, imagine trying to teach a kid to ride a bicycle by free mounting on the bicycle as opposed to starting with supported mount and launch.

Edited August 18, 2023 by rcgldr

[TheNotoriousEUC]

Take this with a grain of salt. I’ve only been riding for a couple of months now. The first thing I realized is the more relaxed when mounting, the easier the glide. I also gently push off like riding a skateboard. I still get nervous about it, especially in higher traffic areas but just remain relaxed and trust yourself. It gets better little by little.

[bpong]

markus,

i think this was also brought up in another topic but i cant remember what it was named.  it has to do with being able to launch with either foot from a standing start.

during your continued learning of how to launch well,  once you get proficient at launching from one foot,  try doing it using the opposite foot.  i remember i used to be able to launch using either foot because once i learned how to launch (and it wasnt a great launch but i always did get moving forward) i forced myself to use the other foot.  at that time when i was learning,  i could launch with either foot with no problem.  i was learning on a grassy soccer field.

unfortunately,  once i started riding on the pavement and street,  i lost the ability to launch with the opposite foot.  i tried it lately,  and i can launch but the body posture and feeling of the launch was abit foreign.  i almost fell at the very beginning after the push off but once my opposite foot was on the pedal,  it felt normal again.

i add this reply to your topic because you are in the enviable position of still learning how to launch and ride.  if i may suggest,  once you get a good launch using your current foot,  try learning how to launch using your other foot.  you are still learning,  so you will be able to exploit your muscle memory to give you the ability to be launch with either foot with ease.  if you do gain this ability,  alternate between each launch if you can (and want) so that your balance will be well tuned in either launch side that you use.

you are so lucky to be in the position of initially learning how to launch and ride.  i miss that time when i first glided away from the wall and simply rolled away from the sidewalk and wall,  and glided across the adjacent soccer field for a few meters, not hanging or leaning on anything.  it was pure acceleration (not speed wise) and surprise.  that was one of the most amazing experiences in the past few years.

unfortunately, after learning how to ride,  one has to learn how to ride with others using the bike lanes and streets.  that is a topic for dozens of other replies which will not be pleasant to read,  but more comical and tragic at the same time.  try to remember your learning period and all you did to learn how to ride your electric wheel.  you only get it once before you become a more experienced rider and sharing the road with fellow riders,  good and bad...

 

[woke rider]

 is the best video on learning. You could possibly buy a V8 to learn on and for community riding, or try these exercises on your Patton, but it's probably going to be really heavy at first.

[rcgldr]

3 hours ago, earthtwin said:

 is the best video on learning. You could possibly buy a V8 to learn on and for community riding, or try these exercises on your Patton, but it's probably going to be really heavy at first.

I think it's best to watch multiple how to ride videos and combine the advice from all of them. In my opinion, Kuji Rolls video is the best, since he is actually teaching a girl to ride for the first time in about about 90 minutes, using a V8. However there are some issues. Kuji mentions lowering tire pressure to 25 psi, but that is because the girl doesn't weigh much. Most riders would start off at 30 to 35 psi. Another issue is Kuji says to press with the inside toe to turn, but that would cause the EUC to accelerate as well as turn. What he's trying to teach is to tilt the wheel left | right to turn. Kuji shows doing the one foot circle drills, which is normally done when teaching free mount, but in Kuji's case it is so that the girl can step off and control the V8 so it doesn't run into some car in the parking lot she's learning at. In the video, she demonstrates she can step off with control, so she never does those one foot circle drills. Kuji teaches her drills using a wall for support, then how to mount and launch using support. She never free mounts in the video. It takes her about 50 minutes to get her first short ride, then over time, her speed increases, which causes the V8 to become more stable, and at 8:05 into the video she's going fast enough that the V8 is stable, she no longer has to do balance corrections, and is tilt steering for direction control.

Wrong Way's video is bit short on details, since Kate (Monokat) already knows how to ride, and the only new thing she does in the video is free mount for the first time on a 77 lb Veteran (she gets it on her second attempt). Wrong Way makes a point that he's doesn't bother doing the one foot drills, since he teaches using support to mount and launch (the same as Kuji) before free mounting, which won't be an issue once a person can already ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc

I used this video of a girl on an S18 as a guide for tilt steering, since the girl isn't carving, no body or EUC twisting, nearly motionless, very stable, just tilting the S18 and leaning. Due to speed and tire parameters, she tilts the S18, less than she leans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hWMwK3Cfs0&t=15s

Wrong Way also made a video on how tires affect the turning response to tilting (this is camber effect). He 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsXW4OKnmWc

I'm an old guy, 69 years old when I started with V8F (August 2021) which is still my only EUC. I've ridden a V12 one time without issue. I spent about 20 minutes doing the wall drills (rock back and forth, short rides near the fence) as shown in Kuji's video at a tennis court with a screened fence. I used the fence for support to mount and launch, then ventured away from the fence, arm flailing | yaw (twist) steering  (flail left to steer right and vice versa) for balance and direction at slow speed, 3 to 5 mph, and was able to do a lap, then later laps, around on my first attempt. I moved to a long outdoor parking lot and at around 8 mph, discovered my V8F became stable, and when riding in a straight line, I no longer had to do any balance corrections, relaxed my arms, and could essentially just stand still while riding at 8 mph or so on my V8F. On an EUC with a wider tire the stable speed would be less, like 5 mph on a Z10. It was then I learned to steer by tilting the EUC. I did some weaves and large radius turns that day (about 1 hour total riding time). It took a few sessions to coordinate how much to tilt the V8F versus how much to lean depending on speed. I did my first free mount on day 5, and got it on my third attempt after compensating for my only time on a grassy field. Next was learning to be able to look|move around a bit without upsetting balance or changing direction.

Edited August 18, 2023 by rcgldr

[woke rider]

I love Kuji's video too. When I was learning I made the mistake of learning in hard mode. When I switched to soft mode, wow, riding was so much easier. I think Inmotion V8 is practically the best all around wheel and would complement the patton due to v8's versatility and low profile. In public the V8 is just fun loving because of it's lights and non-threatening demeanor. Patton on the other hand, wow, I could too agro. I'd have to take it to the motorcycle tracks.

[rcgldr]

25 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

I love Kuji's video too. When I was learning I made the mistake of learning in hard mode.

I wouldn't know. Wrong Way, Marty Backe, Duf (EUC Army), Monokat, Dawn Champion, ..., all prefer hard mode for pavement, since that eliminates the delayed response to rider input while the soft mode allows the EUC to tilt before actually accelerating or decelerating. In the case of the V13, top speed is lowered from an indicated 56 mph to 37 mph if a soft mode below 50% is used, so there is some adverse issue with soft mode. Monokat did a review of the V12, mentioned she liked the split mode setting, but ended up setting everything to 100% (hard mode) in the long run.

For a beginner, part of the feedback on rider lean angle is ankle bend, and soft mode reduces ankle bend, and the corresponding feedback you get from ankle bend, so it didn't seem like a good idea to me.

On the V8F, it makes almost no difference. I learned in hard mode as recommended by Wrong Way. A year or so later, wanting to check it out, I set it to 0% (extreme soft mode), and commuter mode, but the commuter mode reduces the rate of tilt to the point that you're done accelerating or decelerating by the time the V8F has tilted much at all. With 0% + off road, it tilts more quickly, but again, due to the limited power and speed, it isn't doing much. It does make some difference on an incline or decline. Inmotion wheels will auto-lean the rider when transitioning onto an incline or decline, and the 0% + off road setting will tilt the V8F a bit more forwards on inclines and a bit more backwards on declines. I tried 0% 2 or 3 times, to see if the ride would be more comfortable, but it didn't help there, so I switched back to 100% + commuter. I switched to hi-top hiking books, hard soles, cushioned insides, which helped increase comfort a lot.

Edited August 18, 2023 by rcgldr

[Hellkitten]

I now ride med mode on my SS and about 75% pedal hardness on my v11. Both settings are very firm. I found while first learning soft mode was easier. At least for me.