"Monowheel", "hydraulic suspension", and other nomenclature

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

i hate to break it to you my friend but the v13 has a "hydraulic" suspension. The dampening uses oil which is "hydraulic". The difference with the sherman s and the v13 is that the compression is spring and air.

I hate to break it to you, but the only thing that is hydraulic in the V13 suspension is the hydraulic damper. 

The V13 uses an exposed, unsealed, non-wet lubed, slider plus a separate hydraulic damper, and a separate air spring.

The future Challenger will use a single self-contained hydraulic strut where the hydraulic damping circuit, coil spring and wet-lubed slider are all enclosed in an oil bath in one sealed unit. The whole suspension is contained in one hydraulic struct, and thus can be called a hydraulic suspension.

But this doesn't matter since Bob Yan, then CEO of Inmotion called the type of suspension to be use in the future Challenger, a hydraulic suspension. It's their suspension, so they can call it whatever they want.

Edited August 12, 2023 by techyiam

[InfiniteWheelie]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I hate to break it to you, but the only thing that is hydraulic in the V13 suspension is the hydraulic damper.

And the only thing that is hydraulic in the Sherman S is the hydraulic damper. Air vs coil spring, and mono-shock vs fork is what matters. They are all "hydraulic". I've given up on changing your mind on this though 
 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

The future Challenger will use a single self-contained hydraulic struct where the hydraulic damping circuit, coil spring and wet-lubed slider are all enclosed in an oil bath in one sealed unit. The whole suspension is contained in one hydraulic struct, and thus can be called a hydraulic suspension.

But this doesn't matter since Bob Yan, then CEO of Inmotion called the type of suspension to be use in the future Challenger, a hydraulic suspension. It's their suspension, so they can call it whatever they want.

Where did you hear this? If InMotion is really making a fork  type large wheel then I'm actually really excited for that. That's my main issue with the current V13. Any idea when this is coming out?

Edited August 12, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

And the only thing that is hydraulic in the Sherman S is the hydraulic damper. Air vs coil spring, and mono-shock vs fork is what matters. They are all "hydraulic". I've given up on changing your mind on this though 

In both a hydraulic damper, and a hydraulic strut, they both only have a hydraulic damping circuit inside a telescoping slider, in an oil bath sealed inside a self-contained unit. However, a hydraulic strut, in addition, has a coil spring, and the body can support lateral loads. Since the hydraulic strut itself contains all the suspension parts, a wheel that has hydraulic struts can be called as having a hydraulic suspension. The V13 cannot. It only has a hydraulic damper. The other required suspension parts are separate parts, being mainly the springs and sliders.

It doesn't matter what you or I think. Inmotion isn't calling the suspension system in the current V13 a hydraulic suspension. However, Inmotion is calling the suspension system in the updated Challenger with the swappable battery packs, a hydraulic suspension. That is Inmotion's nomenclature.

3 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Where did you hear this? If InMotion is really making a fork  type large wheel then I'm actually really excited for that. That's my main issue with the current V13. Any idea when this is coming out?

What Bob Yan said in online interviews with the few selected Youtubers when he announced the Inmotion Monowheel lineup/roadmap.

According to the Product Manager at Inmotion, Mark Yu, he said the released dates have been delayed. However, no dates were announced for the Challenger with the swappable battery packs and the hydraulic suspension. I suspect the release date will be 2024 at the earliest.

Edited August 12, 2023 by techyiam

[InfiniteWheelie]

@techyiam Okay you sucked me back into this...

Why on earth would it matter whether the spring (air or coil) is physically in the same piece as the damper? The hydraulic damper is part of the suspension and doing the exact same thing either way. Nobody calls any type of suspension hydraulic since they all use hydraulic damping one way or another.

Stut vs shock are car terms, where shocks are just a hydraulic damper, and struts integrate everything into once piece. In the motorcycle/bicycle world (the closest thing to e-wheel suspension) this is irrelevant since the layout is entirely different. Rear suspension is always a single "tube" with either an air spring inside, or a coil over top (both with damping inside). Front suspension is always forks with either dampers/springs in both legs, or one in each leg. Essentially all bike/motorcycle suspension is integrated similar to a strut.

I also don't care what some ESL Chinese guy calls it. Didn't InMotion have some small wheels with air suspension and NO damping? If that's the case he probably means they're ditching that cheap design going forward, and all their wheels will have hydraulic damping. Or he just doesn't know what he's talking about (either technically, or he just sucks at English).

Edited August 12, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[dycus]

Hey guys, there's a thread for this and there's a reason it had to be split out from a different topic...

Perfect thumbnail too

Edited August 12, 2023 by dycus

[InfiniteWheelie]

@techyiam Okay I skimmed through the interview. He talks about their future off-road wheels using linkage suspension, and the big road wheels using “hydraulic shock” suspension…

It’s clear from the context of the conversation that for the latter he’s talking about forks. They bring up the Sherman S, how this type of suspension is a mature motorcycle technology, and they contrast it with linkage suspension.

So even according to you own logic, the CEO is wrong. You refer to the Sherman S suspension as struts, but Bob is calling them “hydraulic shocks”.

At the end of the day there are just two main suspension categories for electric wheels, forks and linkage. Both use hydraulic damping, and both can use either air or coil springs. The differences are how they’re mounted (direct mount vs link mechanism), and their physical form (two long fork legs vs a single short unit).

Edited August 12, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[dycus]

Hydraulic shock is technically correct (for some types of existing EUC suspension). The shock is the part of the suspension that does the movement damping - such as compression damping or rebound damping. Hydraulic fluid passes between two chambers through a restriction, so it can't flow too quickly, wasting energy and slowing the suspension movement.

Extrapolating this to calling the whole system hydraulic suspension is inaccurate... the component that does the suspending is either based on air or a coil (spring) for all current EUC suspension. The Sherman S and Patton have hydraulic shocks, but not hydraulic suspension. They have coil suspension.

Inmotion highlighting their hydraulic shock is just marketing wanketeering, IMO. Doesn't really mean anything, there's not really much advantage to brag about versus other types of shocks.

Edited August 13, 2023 by dycus

[techyiam]

17 minutes ago, dycus said:

The Sherman S and Patton have hydraulic shocks, but not hydraulic suspension. They have coil suspension.

Modern suspensions are oil-damped, and can be sprung by either coil springs or air springs.

Some people refer air sprung suspensions as air suspension. Althugh, air is not the working fluid in the damper.

The Sherman-S has a coil sprung, hydraulic suspension. Replace the coil spring with an air spring and you get an air sprung hydraulic suspension.

Electric wheels are unique in that all the suspension components are contained in the two hydraulic structs which form the complete suspension.

Suspension is new to electric wheels, so people can choose whatever terms they want to use, IMO.

 

[InfiniteWheelie]

@techyiam That’s correct, but I think where people disagree with you are these two reasons…

1. You call the Sherman S setup “hydraulic suspension” but you don’t call the linkage setup the same. It’s like you’re implying that the hydraulic damping is unique to fork suspension, which it absolutely isn’t.

2. Even if you were consistent and called both fork and linkage setups “hydraulic suspension”, it’s still a useless name to call it (outside of separately explaining to someone how the damping works).

Call it whatever you like, I’m just trying to explain why I don’t think it’s accurate, and will likely mislead the uninformed masses, not that I really care. I’m mostly discussing it to get it straight myself.

Edited August 13, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

. You call the Sherman S setup “hydraulic suspension” but you don’t call the linkage setup the same. It’s like you’re implying that the hydraulic damping is unique to fork suspension, which it absolutely isn’t.

Linkage suspensions use hydraulic dampers, the rest of the suspension components are not hydraulic.

A hydraulic suspension is unique in that there are no other suspension components outside the hydraulic suspension structs. All suspension components are in an oil bath sealed in a self-contained unit.

No one cares to point out that suspensions are oil damped. They all are. So why would you waste a perfectly good term for something that has no usefulness, nor gives an accurate description.

[InfiniteWheelie]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Linkage suspensions use hydraulic dampers, the rest of the suspension components are not hydraulic.

Correct.

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

A hydraulic suspension is unique in that there are no other suspension components outside the hydraulic suspension structs. All suspension components are in an oil bath sealed in a self-contained unit.

Why does the construction suddenly turn it into a "hydraulic suspension"? You just admitted yourself that the only thing hydraulic about it is the damping. So putting the spring inside with the damper somehow makes the entire thing a "hydraulic suspension"? What about linkage suspension? The actual suspension part is basically all one structure, just like a fork or strut. Wouldn't that make it a "hydraulic suspension" too by your logic?

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

No one cares to point out that suspensions are oil damped. They all are. So why would you waste a perfectly good term for something that has no usefulness, nor gives an accurate description.

Exactly, they all are, but you're only calling forks "hydraulic suspension". Hydraulic describes a specific part present in all suspension. So why would you apply this term to an entire suspension?

Edited August 13, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Why does the construction suddenly turn it into a "hydraulic suspension"? You just admitted yourself that the only thing hydraulic about it is the damping. So putting the spring inside with the damper somehow makes the entire thing a "hydraulic suspension"? What about linkage suspension? The actual suspension part is basically all one structure, just like a fork or strut. Wouldn't that make it suspension a "hydraulic suspension" too by your logic?

The Sherman S suspension only comprise of two hydraulic suspension struts.

A linkage suspension comprises of a coil-over shock, slider and a linkage.

But now you are just trolling.

1 hour ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Exactly, they all are, but you're only calling forks "hydraulic suspension". Hydraulic describes a specific part present in all suspension. So why would you apply this term to an entire suspension?

A motorcycle or full suspension mtb would not qualify as having a hydraulic suspension even if it has a front suspension fork because the rear would have a swingarm or mulit-link suspension.

Edited August 13, 2023 by techyiam

[InfiniteWheelie]

52 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The Sherman S suspension only comprise of two hydraulic suspension struts.

A linkage suspension comprises of a hydraulic damper, slider and a linkage.

But now you are just trolling.

I said "the actual suspension part" is basically all one structure, I meant minus the linkage.
 

52 minutes ago, techyiam said:

A motorcycle or full suspension mtb would not qualify as having a hydraulic suspension even if it has a front suspension fork because the rear would have a swingarm or mulit-link suspension.

This is an insane and arbitrary definition. So let me get this straight... If there's no linkage, no swingarm, and the suspension parts are all one piece, that somehow makes it a "hydraulic suspension". I think we've reached the end of this rabbit hole, I'll just go ahead and declare victory 

And here's a side note. I believe some forks have a spring in one leg, and damping in the other. By your logic this isn't a "hydraulic suspension" because it's not all in one.

Edited August 13, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[UPONIT]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:13 PM, bpong said:

i really dont get the huge discussion over how one refers to what we ride.  it shouldnt matter except when we are discussing as a group.  and even as a group,  it would probably end up as each forum contributor guessing what the other is referring to,  given the context of the reply or phrasing.  over the past few years,  its never been an important topic but now,  this ?   go over the past few years of topics and postings,  where the hell do we request to each other to clarify are we referring to an euc, monowheel,  electric unicycle, electric wheel, etc,...?!?!?!?

i get that inmotions 'declaration' of calling an euc in their context as monowheel.  big deal - inmotion should get some fucking award for dreaming of the most sterile semi medical condition term for an electric unicycle.  whats next for the fabulous inmotion fuckery team ?  a new name for an owner of a 'monowheel' ?  like say,  monowheel owner ?  or say rider of a monowheel ?

how about this situation:  i had to cancel my date with my girlfriend cause i got monowheel from my last date.  apparently,  monowheel is contagious so i thought it better that i cancel my date with my other girlfriend to prevent me passing my monowheel to her.

as for inmotion deciding to call our fav way of moving, a monowheel,  well, in reply to inmotion i would say - fuck off inmotion.  i ride an euc.  and if you want me to ride an inmotion euc,  get used to me talking to your inmotion salesman and saying "mr. salesman, may i try out one of your new eucs for 2023 ?  and what other revisions and improvements have inmotion made to your lineup of new eucs for 2023 ?"

geeeeezzzzzzussss.......

 

I, for one, am a language nerd. It is interesting to be there during the formation of a new-ish hobby's vocabulary. I really like hearing everyone's ideas and reasons for what they call their EUCs. It's a good way to keep one's mind open and learn how others' minds work (or don't. lol). Until this discussion made me rethink "electric wheel" it didn't make sense to me. 

What 100% WON'T happen is InMotion decreeing what the appropriate name is and that decree happening. And that's what the peanut gallery is for: booing and hissing when someone uses a dumdum term like "monowheel." Yuck. Booo. Hisss. 

Having said that, why did InMotion choose Monowheel?!? (And I am FAR from a language snob, but a company whose main language is not English carries little authority regarding English nomenclature.)

It's kinda like our American versions of language disasters. Chevy Nova, etc.

Come on, @bpong it's fun to yack about stuff. And you know when the laws get passed, it's gonna be called something terrible we haven't even imagined yet. And described as the biggest apocalypse since exploding hoverboards started murdering a generation... lol.

 

On 8/9/2023 at 1:17 PM, mrelwood said:

 Inmotion already have up on Bob’s idea of calling it a monowheel.

"gave" up on? it took me a minute to parse that out...

On 8/9/2023 at 3:35 PM, techyiam said:

Although, to me, it is not that big of a thing, I personally don't want to call it a whatever unicycle because when people hear that, they would naturally assume that it is a dangerous device to ride, just like a motorcycle. And in no uncertain terms they would want to touch it.

I don't think of analog unicycles as "dangerous." I think of them as difficult and sort of a novelty.

Electric Unicycles ARE dangerous. Objectively. They rely on code. Code is failure-prone. Let's be honest. 

On 8/9/2023 at 4:21 PM, InfiniteWheelie said:

EUC - Perhaps the worst name possible. It’s not even a real acronym! It also explains exactly zero about these devices to anyone who doesn’t already know what they are. Doesn’t sound good either.

Electric unicycle - It’s also highly debatable whether these are even unicycles. Most don’t have seats, there’s no way to pedal it manually, you don’t balance it (self balanced). The only thing in common with a unicycle is having a single wheel. I don’t consider them unicycles.

Electric wheel - This name correctly separates them into their own type of device (separate from unicycles). It follows PEV naming convention by using the short form e-wheel (e-bike, e-scooter), and naturally shortens further to simply wheel (the ubiquitous slang name riders already use).

They are unicycles. I don't know the percentage, but most DO have seats. Even the Mten4 can be sat upon. Analog unicycles come in all sorts of configurations. Seatless. Multi-seated. Big and small wheels. Tall frames. Short frames. EUCs DO need to be balanced, side to side. 

These terms are adaptations of the familiar bicycle and tricycle. Even bicycles aren't strict in all cases. Bicycles built for 2 and more often have more than two wheels. 

Language does not, never has, never will follow anyone's rules. It will constantly change. It is the nature of language. A term like bicycle becomes detached from its origin of "two wheeled conveyance" and covers many bases. Even the best term will be imperfect. 

Do a thought experiment. Find a couple of civilians and tell them you want them to make a rough sketch of a transportation device based only on its name. Tell one it is called an electric wheel and one it is called an electric unicycle. Which sketch do you expect to more closely resemble the devices we ride upon?

On 8/9/2023 at 10:53 PM, techyiam said:

On a direct face value kind of way, yes. But since the invention of unicycle and the term unicycle has been attached to it, it means more than just one wheel. It also means it has a seat, pedals, no batteries, nor self-balancing to-and-fro.

Although, I enjoy riding an electric wheel, I have no interest at all to ride a unicycle.

Does anyone call a Segway an electric bicycle? Two wheels.

As stated above, there are many configurations of analog unicycles. Maybe time to update your mental image. 

You ARE riding a single wheeled, vaguely "bicycular" single wheeled vehicle. UNI. CYCLE. You seem EXTREMELY interested, thoughtful and engaged on the subject of unicycles. 

Segway argument fail: Not relevant. Other things that are two wheeled but not bicycles: dogs in those broken leg carts. carts behind bicycles, motorcycles, mopeds, robots on the Jetsons. chariots, manual lawnmowers. How do those things differ from the concept of "bicycle?" 

Edited August 13, 2023 by UPONIT

[InfiniteWheelie]

@UPONIT Even if I concede that's it's a unicycle (I do think that argument can be made), I still think it's a bad name for many reasons... Unlike all other types of personal transportation (bicycles, tricycles, scooters, skateboards etc.) electrifying a unicycle isn't simply a case of adding a regular electric drivetrain. These things are self balancing using a computer, and literally can't be human powered at all. That's why I say it's actually an entirely different type of vehicle, and should be represented as such.

Unicycles have always been considered a novelty, joke, or literal circus level toy. Weird and nerdy come to mind as well, I don't think it's a good image to go with. "Electric unicycle" is also seven syllables long. The short form "EUC" is just as bad. Explains literally nothing, not even a real acronym etc.

"Electric wheel" is the best I've been able to come up with, and I've spent lots of time thinking about it. Keep in mind that would just be the formal name. The short form "e-wheel" would almost certainly be the commonly used name. The casual form "wheel" would continue being used when the context is already understood (fellow riders etc.)

So what we're really debating is EUC vs e-wheel. Using your drawing scenario, if you ask someone to draw an EUC or e-wheel, the former has literally 0 chance, while the latter could come close with some luck and imagination. Everyone has heard of e-bikes or e-scooters, and this follows the same naming convention.

When strangers ask me what I have, I just tell them it's an e-wheel. Saying "electric unicycle" or "EUC" actually confuses them further in my experience. When you say e-wheel they just accept it as a new thing, and move on right away to asking about it's stats or how it works. Plus the "e-bike" word association probably helps even the least informed people connect it with something they already have a grasp on.

Edited August 13, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[Paul g]

I agree the formation of a word for a new thing is fascinating.

It is obvious to me that the ones that decide the name are the users and not the outsiders (so they are irrelevant in this discussion) and that the most used name in community is “wheel” , “electric wheel”, “e-wheel”.

  The fact someone uses the same name for commercial purposes is also irrelevant, just as someone would use “e-bikes” to name their shop/company.

   The EUC served well its purpose until now, and it might end up as an alternative name, but I doubt is what people will stick with. Even cars were called a “cart without a horse” in the beginning.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Paul g

[techyiam]

For me, a wheel with a hydraulic suspension like what is in the Sherman S or Patton means that all the moving parts of the suspension are basically wet-lubed and sealed in an oil bath.

There is no need to deal with the pin joints of the linkage nor the dried lubed sliders in the likes of the S22 and Master, T4, etc, with no tight tolerances to speak of.

Getting a wheel with a quality hydraulic suspension potentially means less to worry about.

[InfiniteWheelie]

@techyiam I think I finally understand your argument, which I've really tried to. To you, when all the suspension parts are sealed inside a tube together with oil splashing around and coating everything, that's when you declare it as "hydraulic suspension". However there are some problems with this logic...

1. The following is the definition of hydraulic - "denoting, relating to, or operated by a liquid moving in a confined space under pressure." Hydraulic doesn't simply mean a fluid is present, even if it's serving a purpose such a lubricating. It has to be under pressure doing mechanical work, such as the damper.

2. I'm pretty sure the only purpose the oil serves (whether it's a fork or coil-over-shock) is to lubricate the sliding between the inner and outer tubes, and to provide the damping. This means when you put everything inside a single tube, the oil isn't even serving an extra function. The springs don't need to be lubricated in oil.

Edited August 13, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[mrelwood]

 

On 8/10/2023 at 8:53 AM, techyiam said:

Although, I enjoy riding an electric wheel, I have no interest at all to ride a unicycle.

You’d have to have me at gunpoint to get me to smoke a cigarette, though I enjoy using an “electronic cigarette” quite often.  An e-cig doesn’t contain tobacco, doesn’t burn, and looks nothing like a cigarette, yet it’s called an e-cig due to what it has been invented to replace.

On 8/10/2023 at 8:53 AM, techyiam said:

Does anyone call a Segway an electric bicycle? Two wheels.

My car isn’t an electric car despite having quite a bit of electronics inside. Naming conventions aren’t always logical. Sometimes a name just sticks before anyone gets to assess whether it’s worthy.

 

14 hours ago, UPONIT said:

"gave" up on? it took me a minute to parse that out...

Oh, sorry!  Yes, “gave” up on. I’ll fix that.

[techyiam]

54 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

My car isn’t an electric car despite having quite a bit of electronics inside. Naming conventions aren’t always logical. Sometimes a name just sticks before anyone gets to assess whether it’s worthy.

Well, in this case, people decided to use the word "electric" to be descriptive of the type of power the propulsion system (power plant) uses, and not what powers the subsystems and accessories in the car.

This is consistent with the terms, gasoline engines and electric motors.

It is reasonably logical, and IMO, appropriate. When driving an electric car, the experience is very much different than driving an ICE-mobile. Whereas, the electronics and accessories inside can be same old, same old.

Edited August 13, 2023 by techyiam

[Punxatawneyjoe]

15 hours ago, UPONIT said:

I don't think of analog unicycles as "dangerous." I think of them as difficult and sort of a novelty.

No lie.I had a wonderful elderly lady the other day see me come out of the trail and she said "well, will you look at that!" She pointed to it and said "unicycle right?" and i said why , yes. Yes it is.  She didn't seem threatened by it whatsoever. I rolled over to her and answered a few more questions and then was on my way.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

No lie.I had a wonderful elderly lady the other day saw me come out of the trail and she said "well, will you look at that!" She pointed to it and said "unicycle right?" and i said why , yes. Yes it is.  She didn't seem threatened by it whatsoever. I rolled over to her and answered a few more questions and then was on my way.

That can happen too. I was riding by an elderly lady (80+ years old) in her front yard on a quiet residential street, and she gave me a thumbs up. And I have been pleasantly surprises by some drivers who were stopped at stop signs, giving me a thumbs up. These are men who are not young, athletic nor sporty looking types. 

But I have to say, based on my experience, the vibes I get is that the vast majority of people I ride by, would not give support to legalize electric wheels.

Let say this, how large a majority of families would buy a unicycle for their kids. I know of none.

And how many families would encourage or approve their offsprings to ride a motorcycle?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

But I have to say, based on my experience, the vibes I get is that the vast majority of people I ride by, would not give support to legalize electric wheels.

I would have to say it depends mostly on the area, if we are talking New York City where most of the riders are weaving in and out of traffic like maniacs. Then i would say if polled, most would be against it. If we are talking about a small town in mass. in an area where people walk through the woods all the time but never see an EUC and when they do the experience is pleasant. I think most of the people in that area love to see something new like the wheel and would be all for it because it's "eco friendly"... I say hi to everyone i pass and when i am just riding slow in the walking trails, i'm not dressed up like a power ranger. 95% of the people i see are very friendly and 60% are curious.

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I would have to say it depends mostly on the area, if we are talking New York City where most of the riders are weaving in and out of traffic like maniacs. Then i would say if polled, most would be against it. If we are talking about a small town in mass. in an area where people walk through the woods all the time but never see an EUC and when they do the experience is pleasant. I think most of the people in that area love to see something new like the wheel and would be all for it because it's "eco friendly"... I say hi to everyone i pass and when i am just riding slow in the walking trails, i'm not dressed up like a power ranger. 95% of the people i see are very friendly and 60% are curious.

But you are talking about offroad riding, which doesn't really need to be legalized, but rather permission. 

But I would agree with you though. If euc riders ride recklessly, and go terrorizing, on-road or off, there will be backlash.

 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

20 hours ago, techyiam said:

Modern suspensions are oil-damped, and can be sprung by either coil springs or air springs.

ok, now I'm going to blow everyone mind. You ready for this? The suspension is the coil or the air because that's what "suspends" the object up in the air, the shock absorber although considered an integral part of modern day suspensions. Is a separate entity with the task of absorbing the rebound of a compressed suspension....most EUC's have "hydraulic" absorption......