Why cant the KS 14D be as fast as a mten3 ? 30kph vs 40kph

[T-Ray]

Why cant the KS 14D be as fast as a mten3 ? 30kph vs 40kph. Considering how smaller the mten3, why is it faster than the 14D?

[Hellkitten]

One is made by kingsong the other begode. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Different motor, different battery, different manufacturer.

• For a given voltage (for example 67.2V, which both the mten3 and 14D have), how fast a motor can spin depends on how the motor is built. The mten motor might just be designed to have a higher top speed.
  Also, there is a 84V mten3. 84V is a +25% increase over 67.2V, and this results in 25% higher top speed when using the same motor as in the 67V mten3. So that mten3 can go even faster.
• Bigger batteries (as in some mten3 versions) can also allow higher top speeds because they are safer at high speeds compared to smaller batteries, so you can allow the wheel to go faster while still being safe. For example the 14S (same as the 14D but with bigger battery) goes a little faster than the 14D (I think).
• And finally, back when the 14D/S was released (2017), King Song thought that wheels shouldn't be "too fast" (like 30kph) and "fast" (30kph) wheels were too dangerous, and they just refused to build wheels faster than that. Thankfully they gave up on that nonsense. Begode/Gotway in contrast always went for the highest speed they could get away with.

[mrelwood]

All of the above, and also a different safety margin. KS are always speed limited by software, usually to around 70% of the free spin speed, while Begodes are not limited at all. So you can freely ride off the ledge of the speed mountain as the wheel just stops being able to balance. KS and Inmotion don’t think that it’s a good idea.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

while Begodes are not limited at all

Those wheels tend to have an 80% alarm. So it's not unlimited.

[mrelwood]

38 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Those wheels tend to have an 80% alarm. So it's not unlimited.

Alarms don’t limit. They (attempt to) alert.

Edited June 2, 2023 by mrelwood

[alcatraz]

Wheels don't really have speed limits. There's a point where you don't have enough torque to stay upright.

Using the same wheel as an example. For rider+riding condition A it can be at 70% the speed of free spin. Going to 71% and he'll be on the ground. For B it could be 90% - a vastly different speed.  70.. 90... for the same wheel. Not exactly easy for the manufacturer to base a hard speed limit on. 

So speed limits can be set conservatively or up to the rider's best judgement. It's best for riders to study how wheels work because they could crash even if they have "the safest brand". 

Another thing I argue is that if you ride a "safe wheel" you get a false sense of security. Once on another wheel (even another safe wheel) you can become overconfident based on your experience. 

In the example above. If the hard speed limit is set to 70% in software. Rider A doesn't realise how CLOSE he is to crashing by hitting the speed limit. While rider B has a massive margin at the same speed.

Edited June 5, 2023 by alcatraz

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Wheels don't really have speed limits.

KS and IM wheels do. The highest speed you can set the tilt-back to. Of course that doesn’t mean that they are all perfectly safe for all riders doing all maneuvers at full speed. But I recognize that some people don’t understand this.

7 hours ago, alcatraz said:

It's best for riders to study how wheels work because they could crash even if they have "the safest brand".

Exactly.

7 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Another thing I argue is that if you ride a "safe wheel" you get a false sense of security.

I’m not sure if that’s dependent on the wheel’s safety reputation. Ignorant riders (or ones without information) can crash on any wheel.

Most of us remember the V13 overlean early this year, when the rider tried to accelerate all the way to 90km/h as fast as possible. Some people got downright angry at IM that the V13 could still be overleaned, clearly misunderstanding the electronics and laws of physics at play.

 If V13 were a Begode, it’s advertised top speed would probably be an unlimited 110km/h (~80% free spin). I’m sure that some people would still overlean it at around 90km/h thinking that since it can go 110km/h, 90km/h should be a safe speed to do anything at.

A few guys have tried to find out the max speed of a GotWay/Begode. They accelerated softly as far as they could, until suddenly the wheel stopped balancing. Nobody blamed the wheel, because GotWays have always been like that. But the riders clearly didn’t know how their own wheels operated.

 

7 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Rider A doesn't realise how CLOSE he is to crashing by hitting the speed limit. While rider B has a massive margin at the same speed.

I think that what we’re doing here is educating about this is exact matter.

[alcatraz]

I like any change that makes riders aware of risks. Straight from the beginning...

I'd like to see a chart provided with every wheel, in the users manual or app. For body height X and body weight Y, set the recommended max speed limit to Z km/h.I f you ride air pressures below xxx, you reduce the speed limit by 3% etc.

This sort of custom speed limit, I think helps to create awareness of the problem with overlean right from the start. (This is where Begode actually has a safety advantage, because you can disable alarms and tilt-back. That's quite terrifying and makes you think.)

I think it's equally bad to choose a hard limit based on a 150kg rider that's 2m tall riding in windy conditions. That's just wrong to everyone else who don't fit that demographic.

So the max speed slider should be allowed to be set higher than what is safe for a 150kg 2m tall rider. But with a calculator and warnings. Maybe add local wind conditions into the calculation.

Introduce a "recommended speed limit". If your style is hard riding then the calculator takes previous rides into account.

The worst type of app (I think) is one that has a black slider 0-50km/h without any warnings or recommendation based on the rider's details. That produces false sense of security and bad habits. We're not all equal.

Edited June 14, 2023 by alcatraz

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, alcatraz said:

(This is where Begode actually has a safety advantage, because you can disable alarms and tilt-back. That's quite terrifying and makes you think.)

Well, for many riders the teaching moment has been their first high speed crash. Sure things turn terrifying and makes you think after that. But that’s not acceptable in my books. There are so many attributes the rider simply can’t take into account (phase current, battery temperature, exact speed etc.)

 Though I do agree with you about the possible false sense of security on a wheel with an adjustable tilt-back. A few riders have crashed also because of that, trying to accelerate to max speed as fast as possible without slowing down at all when nearing the max speed.

A PWM tilt-back is what should be utilized more. It takes all conditions into account. Add a forward looking sensor method that starts the tilt-back earlier if you’re nearing the tilt-back speed fast, and you’d have a very secure system.

 Either way, what is needed most of all atm is awareness.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by mrelwood

[alcatraz]

PWM-limit would be ideal. Why hasn't it been adopted by the manufacturers yet?

[mrelwood]

25 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

PWM-limit would be ideal. Why hasn't it been adopted by the manufacturers yet?

Who knows? Maybe they just haven’t realized how useful it would be. Freestyler’s firmware mod is a relatively new one.

 Then again, GotWay/Begode still hasn’t figured out even how to make a dynamic tilt-back in the first place, so I guess we shouldn’t expect very much from them…