Overlean behavior (split from: 18XL: "Speed Limit: 20.0 km/h" appears in KingSong app)

[Funky]

31 minutes ago, Wonton said:

Hey, the lift test did the trick! After doing it,  the "speed limit" changed to 40 km/h, which is my current tiltback speed (see pic below). However, after turning the wheel off and then off again, the app reverted to "20 km/h" like above. So it's apparently just a bug in the latest firmware. Serves me right for updating it without a need to do so LOL.

BTW, what's your current tiltback set to?

I have tilt back set at 50km/h. (As i don't wanna feel it.. And to tilt back to work - wheel needs to start riding faster - as it's lifting you, so that's the part where one would get a cut-out. If wheel don't have enough "power".) I can hear even the quiet beeps from EUC-World. Even in windy conditions. There is no way i will ever miss the loud voice+beeps from second alarm.. Which i have set at 42km/h. My first alarm the quiet beeps are at 38km/h, which i sometimes keep riding between 38/42km/h 

 

19 minutes ago, slippyfeet said:

I have alarm 1&2 off, alarm 3 at 48kph, tiltback at 50kph.

Quit close to the "max" 50km/h speed... I do hope you are light enough rider, otherwise you may experience cut-out and crash. Especially if battery is is on empty side.

8 minutes ago, Wonton said:

I haven't tried setting my alarm 3 and tiltback that high. I probably should give it a try.

I personally would not go over 45km/h, if wheel is rated for 50km/h. Also as battery gets lower - you have even less available speed. More chance of a cut-out.

 

 

Just a friendly reminder..

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, Funky said:

Also as battery gets lower - you have even less available speed. More chance of a cut-out.

The tilt-back speed gets lower as well as the battery gets lower, so the risk for overlean due to speed doesn’t change all that much with the battery level.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The tilt-back speed gets lower as well as the battery gets lower, so the risk for overlean due to speed doesn’t change all that much with the battery level.

But it doesn't change the fact, that wheel needs to go "faster", to be available tilt the user.. In which case rider may think he still can ride close to 50km/h speed. But suddenly wheel cuts out. Because rider was already pushing the wheel limits on somewhat empty battery. And because of tilt-back engaging, the wheel went over the limit.

 

Same time he may hit a bump on road, making him lean more forwards. Making the wheel go even faster for split second. So called "perfect storm". As all possible things that can go wrong, goes wrong..

 

I still will choose to rider slower. And follow safety margins. (At least the way i ride, no sudden accelerations at higher speeds and such. Not going under 15% safety margin.)

Edited April 25, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

12 minutes ago, Funky said:

But it doesn't change the fact, that wheel needs to go "faster", to be available tilt the user..

Yes. And the wheel needs to go faster for the rider to start braking themselves as well. There’s very little difference in power consumption between the two.

12 minutes ago, Funky said:

 In which case rider may think he still can ride close to 50km/h speed. But suddenly wheel cuts out. Because rider was already pushing the wheel limits on somewhat empty battery. And because of tilt-back engaging, the wheel went over the limit.

First, the 18XL doesn’t let you ride close to 50km/h on a somewhat empty battery. The tilt-back speed gets lower when the battery gets low enough. Second, if the wheel doesn’t have the power to tilt back, it doesn’t “suddenly cut out“. It uses the power it has, and if that’s not enough to tilt the wheel, then it won’t tilt. But it won’t suddenly cut out.

 But if the rider is riding in a way that doesn’t have the tiny amount of power left for tilt back, one is so darn close to overpowering the wheel that just a tiny invisible hump would make you overlean the wheel. In which case the wheel still doesn’t “suddenly cut out“. It tries its best to stay upright all the way until the wheel is tilting forward at a 45 degree angle. Then it finally suddenly cuts out.

 But again, the 18XL doesn’t ever let you ride at a speed where there wouldn’t be a good amount of power left for balancing.

 

12 minutes ago, Funky said:

Not going under 15% safety margin.)

Just so that we’re all talking about the same thing, 15% safety margin as seen on EUC World for example is already close to the maximum available power! I wouldn’t ever dare to go anywhere near that low.

 Although, like I’ve explained to you before, you calculate what you call “safety margin” differently than the rest of us. The term safety margin refers to the full range of power that the wheel has at any given time. 0% safety margin doesn’t mean that you are riding at the tilt-back speed. It means that a butterfly’s weight on your toes would cause the pedals to start tilting forwards since the wheel has no more power to balance. Check the safety margin (estimation) on an EUCw to get a better idea on how you’re riding in relation to the limits.

 The PWM tilt-back that Freestyler made for Begodes defaults to I think 30% safety margin (= 70% PWM utilization). Under that it gets already a bit risky.

 To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with your approach or the speeds you ride at. They are good for safety. Just  the way you talk about it reveals a few misunderstandings.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

First, the 18XL doesn’t let you ride close to 50km/h on a somewhat empty battery. The tilt-back speed gets lower when the battery gets low enough. Second, if the wheel doesn’t have the power to tilt back, it doesn’t “suddenly cut out“. It uses the power it has, and if that’s not enough to tilt the wheel, then it won’t tilt. But it won’t suddenly cut out.

But if rider goes over the power needed to wheel stay up.. What it does then? It powers off... (Same thing for me as cut-out.)

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Just so that we’re all talking about the same thing, 15% safety margin as seen on EUC World for example is already close to the maximum available power! I wouldn’t ever dare to go anywhere near that low.

I have hit low as 13% and wheel have not beeped/alarmed me once. I understand it may have been a split second dip, but still..

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 Although, like I’ve explained to you before, you calculate what you call “safety margin” differently than the rest of us. The term safety margin refers to the full range of power that the wheel has at any given time. 0% safety margin doesn’t mean that you are riding at the tilt-back speed. It means that a butterfly’s weight on your toes would cause the pedals to start tilting forwards since the wheel has no more power to balance. Check the safety margin (estimation) on an EUCw to get a better idea on how you’re riding in relation to the limits.

I understand that wheel needs xxx amount power, given xxx amount speed, so on.. (One can even get a cut-out at 10mph speed. Because he did a superman lean at start.) If it doesn't have enough power, that it needs - it's simply powers off (cut-out.) That's why people say no quick accelerations and such near top speed. As wheel is already pushing quit a bit power.

Example: one is riding the "beeps". It's good idea that wheel is already telling you that you are close to the limits? No? And by trying to tilt-back the user. Can't the tilt-back itself make the user crash? As the wheel went over the said power it needed?

Explain to me what i'm missing then? (I want be safer. If i don't understand something.)

I'm mostly following Watts of the motor. And the safety margin from EUC World. Time to time i look at volts also. (As most my rides are "the same" and every "number" are somewhat the same, after rides - I don't worry.)

Edited April 25, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

But if rider goes over the power needed to wheel stay up.. What it does then? It powers off...

Not quite. See below.

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

Can't the tilt-back itself make the user crash? As the wheel went over the said power it needed?

Like I said, tilt-back uses so little extra power that if it’s enough to overpower the wheel, you would overpower the wheel by trying to start braking as well. So no.

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

Explain to me what i'm missing then?

This is what happens if you lean too hard:

The wheel still tries to stay upright as well as it can, and will keep doing so. It doesn’t power off or cut out. If you can take your power demand back at that very moment, you’ll just continue riding. The wheel doesn’t cut out or turn off.

In the above video the rider gives the wheel only quick jolts of acceleration, so his center of balance is still near the axle. That’s why the jolts are short, and the wheel can recover.

Of course, if you’re accelerating hard, it’s really difficult to take it back all of a sudden, since it takes power to get the wheel in front of you so you can brake.

 Only if you tilt the wheel as far as 45 degrees forward, then it will disengage the motor. And that’s a cut-out.

 

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

I'm mostly following Watts of the motor.

What matters is the power output of the controller. Motor wattage mainly  tells you how soon the motor will overheat. It’s not very relevant to overlean safety.

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

And the safety margin from EUC World.

There you go! have you really gotten it down to 15%?? That’s pretty hardcore man!

[Funky]

31 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The wheel still tries to stay upright as well as it can, and will keep doing so. It doesn’t power off or cut out. If you can take your power demand back at that very moment, you’ll just continue riding. The wheel doesn’t cut out or turn off.

In the above video the rider gives the wheel only quick jolts of acceleration, so his center of balance is still near the axle. That’s why the jolts are short, and the wheel can recover.

Of course, if you’re accelerating hard, it’s really difficult to take it back all of a sudden, since it takes power to get the wheel in front of you so you can brake.

 Only if you tilt the wheel as far as 45 degrees forward, then it will disengage the motor. And that’s a cut-out.

I didn't know that wheel "can" regain it's balancing capability.  I thought it would simply power off, as it went over the said limits.. Still as you said - if rider is leaning far enough in front of EUC, he would crash instantly. 

31 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

What matters is the power output of the controller. Motor wattage mainly  tells you how soon the motor will overheat. It’s not very relevant to overlean safety.

Which name is the output for the controller then?? Under what name should i look out in the app? Current? And how high i would be available to go, to stay pretty safe?

31 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There you go! have you really gotten it down to 15%?? That’s pretty hardcore man!

It was when i was going ~42km/h at 50% battery. The thing is the wheel didn't limit me at all.. As i said - maybe split second of a dip in safety margin. 

Normally it stays above 25%. (As i don't ride under ~71volts.)

 

BTW could you (Or any other kind mod.) split it off to different thread/post? Don't wanna high-jack the thread.  

Edited April 25, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

 

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

I thought it would simply power off, as it went over the said limits..

It does, but from different limits than you think. The limit that disengages the motor is the 45 degree angle tilt limit. Same that single track riders have learned to be afraid of in tight banked turns.

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

Which name is the output for the controller then?? Under what name should i look out in the app? Current? And how high i would be available to go, to stay pretty safe?

Here’s the trick: The maximum output power of the controller is usually not announced, it varies, and there’s no good way to track it. But safety margin (or PWM utilization) is much better, since it takes in consideration everything: Incline, battery level, speed, rider weight, etc. It’s practically the only measure you need to watch in order not to overpower the wheel. That makes the PWM tilt-back so great, it considers everything.

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

It was when i was going ~42km/h at 50% battery. The thing is the wheel didn't limit me at all..

If I remember correctly, 2.x firmware on 18XL only limits the max speed below 30% battery. Or under 50%, not sure.

 

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

BTW could you (Or any other kind mod.) split it off to different thread/post? Don't wanna high-jack the thread.  

Good idea!

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Here’s the trick: The maximum output power of the controller is usually not announced, it varies, and there’s no good way to track it. But safety margin (or PWM utilization) is much better, since it takes in consideration everything: Incline, battery level, speed, rider weight, etc. It’s practically the only measure you need to watch in order not to overpower the wheel. That makes the PWM tilt-back so great, it considers everything.

So if i was using original Kingsong app.. Just an example. I couldn't really follow any good information.

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If I remember correctly, 2.x firmware on 18XL only limits the max speed below 30% battery. Or under 50%, not sure.

25% i think.. When i was riding till 0%, i noticed it started to speed limit be around there. So under 30%.

 

 

I normally watch my motor wattage. I never go over 2700W. Same time my safety margin stays above 20% (I have set the alarm at 20%. More wattage - less safety margin.) As i don't hear that alarm - i know i'm okay. Even while riding at ~44km/h and wheel already blasting the second alarm.  I rarely do that. Maybe once a ride i speed up there. But soon as i hear any kind of different alarm. Aside from regular speed alarm, i slow down. Haven't really heard the "safety margin" alarm in while.

I should probably set it around 50%, so i remember what it sounds.  

Only alarm that i time to time hear is the PRE "tilt-back" alarm from EUC World. It starts beeping like crazy, letting me know it will start lifting pedals pretty soon. Naturally as soon as i hear it, i slow down.

 

Can't one alarm mute another alarm, vice versa? If both happen to play same time? Like when PRE tilt-back alarm kicks in. Same time the safety margin alarm could have already ben triggered? But it simply doesn't play it? Especially if original alarms are also enable from wheel?

Example of my setup: Quiet beeps at 38km/h from EUC World. 42km/h voice+beeps from original wheel alarm. + 42km/h beeps from EUC World. (Yes both are playing the same time.) At ~44km/h i usually hear the crazy fast beeping from EUC World kicking in. At which point i slow down. Tilt-back i have set at 50km/h as i can hear the beeps without problems. (So you could say i have "turned" it off.)

Edited April 25, 2023 by Funky

[Chriull]

13 hours ago, Funky said:

I have hit low as 13% and wheel have not beeped/alarmed me once. I understand it may have been a split second dip, but still..

KS pwm % warning used to be (and most likely still is) at 88% - so it starts with consecutive beeping at and below 12% safety margin.

9 hours ago, Funky said:

I normally watch my motor wattage. I never go over 2700W.

Wattage is a bad measure for overleans. It could be a bit useful for thermal/current overpowering.

KS (and EUC?) report battery current - so the reported watts are battery output power. That's above motor output power - the bldc motor and controller have some very inefficient states (speed/burden pairings). But the nearer one comes to an overlean (pwm% == 100%) the more motor power nears to battery power.

But afaik/r  EUCW has motor current calculation/estimation? So it could display some calculated motor output power?

Still there is no real easy correlation between overlean safety margin and motor output power.

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But safety margin (or PWM utilization) is much better, since it takes in consideration everything: Incline, battery level, speed, rider weight, etc. It’s practically the only measure you need to watch in order not to overpower the wheel. That makes the PWM tilt-back so great, it considers everything

+1! Unfortionately the manufacturers do not really get this - at least begode riders have some modded fw!

[rcgldr]

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

KS (and EUC?) report battery current - so the reported watts are battery output power. That's above motor output power - the bldc motor and controller have some very inefficient states (speed/burden pairings). But the nearer one comes to an overlean (pwm% == 100%) the more motor power nears to battery power.

But afaik/r  EUCW has motor current calculation/estimation? So it could display some calculated motor output power?

EUC World calculates power as (reported voltage) x (reported current). I don't know what current and voltage KS EUCs report to EUC World.

I have a V8F, which apparently doesn't report pwm% (not an option on EUC World). With my V8F, EUC Worlds average current for a ride is higher than actual. If I calculate  (amp minutes) as (ride time) x (average current), it is about 20% higher than (charge time) x (charge current).  I suspect the V8F reports peak current seen in each message cycle, resulting in the high reported current. Although I don't see an option for pwm with EUC World on my V8F, it still shows a safety margin setting, but I don't know what it would be based on.

Edited April 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[Chriull]

7 hours ago, rcgldr said:

EUC World calculates power as (reported voltage) x (reported current). I don't know what current and voltage KS EUCs report to EUC World.

KS report battery voltage and battery current. So it's battery power reported.

Begode and leaperkim report battery voltage and motor current. And the multiplication of these two unrelated values which gives some nonsense watts.

[onewheelkoregro]

On 4/25/2023 at 2:20 AM, Funky said:

I have tilt back set at 50km/h. (As i don't wanna feel it.. And to tilt back to work - wheel needs to start riding faster - as it's lifting you, so that's the part where one would get a cut-out. If wheel don't have enough "power".) I can hear even the quiet beeps from EUC-World. Even in windy conditions. There is no way i will ever miss the loud voice+beeps from second alarm.. Which i have set at 42km/h. My first alarm the quiet beeps are at 38km/h, which i sometimes keep riding between 38/42km/h 

 

Quit close to the "max" 50km/h speed... I do hope you are light enough rider, otherwise you may experience cut-out and crash. Especially if battery is is on empty side.

I personally would not go over 45km/h, if wheel is rated for 50km/h. Also as battery gets lower - you have even less available speed. More chance of a cut-out.

 

 

Just a friendly reminder..

What app do you use to control your EUC? That isn't the Kingsong app or EUC world is it? Do you use Darknessbot? I am considering getting premium EUC world just so I can add the SFX

[Funky]

12 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

What app do you use to control your EUC? That isn't the Kingsong app or EUC world is it? Do you use Darknessbot? I am considering getting premium EUC world just so I can add the SFX

Free version of EUC World + Original Kingsong alarms. (3rd alarm.)

EUC World only for the first alarm (the quiet beeps - 2nd alarm.)

And for second alarm both apps are set at 42km/h speed. (both 3rd alarm.) Meaning it start beeping like crazy, also voice alarm from original kingsong app.

At speed around 44-45km/h it starts to beep even crazier - letting me know it will start lifting pedals soon, as im reaching the 50km/h speed limit. At witch point i slow down as soon as i hear it.

 

Most of my rides i don't hear the second alarm at all.. I keep riding the 38-41km/h quiet beeps - which let me know i'm going that speed.

 

In case if i forget to open EUC world. Or simply don't open for short ~3km rides. I have my original kingsong alarm still set at 42km/h. Simply not having (quiet beeps) alarm. But those rides i usually ride much, much slower - as i'm not geared. Going under 20km/h speeds.. (I can tell by simply looking around how fast i'm going. Also wind noise..)

Edited May 5, 2023 by Funky