level9 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) I'm curious what the expected motor temperature range should be for safe operation and other people's experiences are? I've had mine up to 106C in 26C ambient which makes me a little concerned for the up and coming summer riding season here in Texas as that really already seems too hot. Some quick googling around for typical electrical motor temperature ranges and yeah, seems possibly too hot. To be fair, I do ride the wheel much harder and faster than most (according to EUC world) as I'm mostly driving on-road 50-60 km/h. I've already covered the motor in low-profile heat sinks which helped some. Do I need to 'kid glove' this wheel this summer? For context - EUC World: Distance: 74 % longer than other riders average on King Song KS-S22 Max Temp: 87 % higher than other riders average on King Song KS-S22 Avg Riding Speed: 56 % faster than other riders average on King Song KS-S22 Avg Energy Consumption: 73 % higher than other riders average on King Song KS-S22 Edited March 9, 2023 by level9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfoxdude Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 I believe the limit for motor over-temperature tiltback is 120C (Somebody correct me if I am wrong). I wonder if it might be worth considering putting some Grin Products' Statorade in the motor? I've thought about trying some, but I don't push hard enough to get close to over-temperature, myself. And I think the new 4kW motor I just installed will likely run cooler as well, so I'm probably going to leave it be. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 The S22 amateur motor does get hot enough to declare over temperature, and ambient doesn't have to be that high (happened to @Ginger On Wheels in Vancouver BC). I think statorade is a good preventive measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NErider Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 My motor temps reads around 20 or so degrees below ambient. So I wouldn't have much a risk of being throttled by software. I have a spare motor I plan to swap in and see if the readings are more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 12 hours ago, NErider said: My motor temps reads around 20 or so degrees below ambient. So I wouldn't have much a risk of being throttled by software. I have a spare motor I plan to swap in and see if the readings are more accurate. That would be the controller not the motor, where are you looking at temps? The S22 ZX motor can get quite hot but it operates just fine up to the threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NErider Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 On 3/12/2023 at 10:20 AM, Rawnei said: That would be the controller not the motor, where are you looking at temps? The S22 ZX motor can get quite hot but it operates just fine up to the threshold. Looking at temps in EUC world. In the list where it says "Motor Temp" and "Battery Temp". I'm guessing the Temp sensor inside the motor isn't calibrated properly in some way? I have a batch 1 wheel that I pinned myself while waiting for a replacement motor. So intend so swap the motors soon and see what changes. If anything. But either way after sitting even overnight, ambient Temp, motor Temp, and battery temps read different even immediately after turning the wheel on. Battery and ambient are always close, but motor is less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted April 15, 2023 Author Share Posted April 15, 2023 (edited) OK. I've attached about 100 small heat sinks to the motor and injected 6mil of statorade. The motor now peaks @ 94C/201F in 32C/90F ambient which is much better, particularly after the statorade. Unfortunately, I got tiltback and error 25 which per KS app means 'BMS over discharge temp' after 35 km/h avg riding speed for 45m. So, it's not even summer yet and 90F here is nothing. This is concerning.... How to deal with the batteries? overheating? Drill holes in the battery case? Edited April 15, 2023 by level9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted April 15, 2023 Share Posted April 15, 2023 That definitely doesn't sound normal at all, did you check app what temp sensors were at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted April 15, 2023 Author Share Posted April 15, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rawnei said: That definitely doesn't sound normal at all, did you check app what temp sensors were at? Unfortunately didn't record what I saw on KS app. EUCWorld reported 43C/109F battery when I suspected temp overheat and had it off a few minutes and took a look. According to KS app, 50C/122F is the tiltback and 40C/104F is when it will start working again which is what happened.. it started balancing again once it cooled off to <= 40C. So I suppose I hit 50C. That's not really that much at all if that's where the alarm is. It's going to get much, much hotter here... adding.. this is firmware 2.25 mboard / 2.08 bms Edited April 15, 2023 by level9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted April 15, 2023 Author Share Posted April 15, 2023 I just checked and saw firmware 2.27 is available with this note in the changelog "ALARM NUM 225". hrm. going to upgrade and see how it goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NErider Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 I finally installed my new spare S22 motor and the temps in EUC world still don't match up. Ambiant:66*F Mosfet:67*F Batteries:63...68*F Motor 48*F This is from sitting in my house all day and checked as soon as I turn it on. Wheel is on 2.25 and 40t BMS 2.15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 OK, batteries overheated again @ 45C (~113F). Error cleared and started balancing again after cooling down to 40C (~104F). This is in 31C (~88F) ambient. Firmware 2.27 mboard / 2.08 bms. Unfortunately, this pretty much makes this wheel useless for warm climate/summer riding. Ambient temps here can easily reach 40C+ and it's going to overheat before even getting a few blocks from the house. The error messages I received from KS app are both invalid as I was riding the wheel, not charging and the reported temps are also incorrect. Firmware bugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 1 hour ago, level9 said: OK, batteries overheated again @ 45C (~113F). Error cleared and started balancing again after cooling down to 40C (~104F). This is in 31C (~88F) ambient. Firmware 2.27 mboard / 2.08 bms. Unfortunately, this pretty much makes this wheel useless for warm climate/summer riding. Ambient temps here can easily reach 40C+ and it's going to overheat before even getting a few blocks from the house. The error messages I received from KS app are both invalid as I was riding the wheel, not charging and the reported temps are also incorrect. Firmware bugs? Try upgrading BMS firmware, it's up to 2.17 now I believe? Mine is on 2.16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, Rawnei said: Try upgrading BMS firmware, it's up to 2.17 now I believe? Mine is on 2.16 Unfortunately the KS app does not give me the option to upgrade. It says 2.08 is the latest. I assume this is hardware revision locked somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onkeldanuel Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 6 hours ago, level9 said: Unfortunately the KS app does not give me the option to upgrade. It says 2.08 is the latest. I assume this is hardware revision locked somehow? Its also impossible for me to upgrade bms for me from 2.08 since the beginning...tried everything including ks app, softtuner, resetting the batteries ...it aquires the Firmware in softtuner (in ks app it dont even gives the option to update anymore) and then says left bms update fail Otherwise its working fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 10 hours ago, level9 said: Unfortunately the KS app does not give me the option to upgrade. It says 2.08 is the latest. I assume this is hardware revision locked somehow? 3 hours ago, onkeldanuel said: Its also impossible for me to upgrade bms for me from 2.08 since the beginning...tried everything including ks app, softtuner, resetting the batteries ...it aquires the Firmware in softtuner (in ks app it dont even gives the option to update anymore) and then says left bms update fail Otherwise its working fine Check with softtuner, in there you can select wheel model, might be that yours is on some older revision and changing to another S22 revision might help and make new choices available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted May 2, 2023 Author Share Posted May 2, 2023 On 5/1/2023 at 4:06 AM, Rawnei said: Check with softtuner, in there you can select wheel model, might be that yours is on some older revision and changing to another S22 revision might help and make new choices available. I'll take a look. I think I'm going to drill some holes in the battery case first and cover with hydrophobic PTFE filters to see if that helps. atm, I'm highly suspicious based on the "battery temp charging" errors I'm getting and some more testing that it may not resolve the issue. I looked up the spec sheet for LG 50LT 21700 and the Samsung 40T cells. They both have maximum charging temp cutoffs of 45C which is inline with the error I am getting. But I'm not charging the wheel? or am I ... the issue occurs right after braking. Regenerative braking. I believe that's tripping the over temp charging code in the firmware. Out of curiosity, I asked our new AI overlords it's opinion on the matter. > does the maximum charging temp range apply to regenerative braking? ChatGPT The maximum charging temperature range for EUC (Electric Unicycle) batteries typically applies to both regenerative braking and traditional charging methods. This means that it's important to ensure that the temperature of the batteries does not exceed the maximum recommended range during regenerative braking, as this can potentially damage the cells or reduce their overall lifespan. During regenerative braking, the batteries can be charged at a relatively high rate, which can generate heat and increase the temperature of the cells. If the temperature of the batteries exceeds the recommended range, it can lead to reduced performance and potentially damage the cells or other components of the EUC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 50 minutes ago, level9 said: I'll take a look. I think I'm going to drill some holes in the battery case first and cover with hydrophobic PTFE filters to see if that helps. atm, I'm highly suspicious based on the "battery temp charging" errors I'm getting and some more testing that it may not resolve the issue. I looked up the spec sheet for LG 50LT 21700 and the Samsung 40T cells. They both have maximum charging temp cutoffs of 45C which is inline with the error I am getting. But I'm not charging the wheel? or am I ... the issue occurs right after braking. Regenerative braking. I believe that's tripping the over temp charging code in the firmware. Out of curiosity, I asked our new AI overlords it's opinion on the matter. > does the maximum charging temp range apply to regenerative braking? ChatGPT The maximum charging temperature range for EUC (Electric Unicycle) batteries typically applies to both regenerative braking and traditional charging methods. This means that it's important to ensure that the temperature of the batteries does not exceed the maximum recommended range during regenerative braking, as this can potentially damage the cells or reduce their overall lifespan. During regenerative braking, the batteries can be charged at a relatively high rate, which can generate heat and increase the temperature of the cells. If the temperature of the batteries exceeds the recommended range, it can lead to reduced performance and potentially damage the cells or other components of the EUC. I would 100% update BMS firmware before doing any hardware changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NErider Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 Also you should see if anything is actually reaching that temperature. Possibly with a an lazer temp meter, or a thermocouple hooked to a Fluke Meter slid into the battery housing. It could be a sensor problem? It is possible there is a physical problem with this wheel. Could be damaged cells, bad temp sensor, bad interpretation of the sensor data? It sounds like some real diagnosis is needed to identify the fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level9 Posted June 10, 2023 Author Share Posted June 10, 2023 UPDATE. Got bat temp up to 120F/49C after BMS firmware update to 2.19. Motor temp to 230F/110C (Pro motor + 6ml statorade) Mainboard peaked at 162F/77C (after completely covering the underside with heatsinks for a ~10 degree drop). Ambient temp was 94F/34c. So it would seem, at the least, for warm climate/summer riding, BMS firmware should be updated in order to prevent being stranded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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