Unable to step on

[rcgldr]

On 3/26/2023 at 12:31 AM, mrelwood said:

less painful and require less effort to start in medium mode, or 70% Commuter in Inmotions.

What do you mean by less effort? Once the EUC stops tilting forwards or backwards the rider exerts the same amount of torque onto the EUC as the motor exerts onto the wheel+tire (otherwise, the EUC would still be tilting), regardless of pedal sensitivity setting. With a soft pedal setting, a small mount of the riders torque is used up to tilt the EUC frame. To reduce the effort needed to exert a forwards torque onto an EUC, a rider can stand a bit forwards on the pedals, but braking will require more rider torque. Using power pads reduces effort due to more leverage.

Softer modes reduce ankle bend, which would be more comfortable (less calf muscle stretch during acceleration) for some riders.  

 

 

[rcgldr]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:22 AM, novazeus said:

i appreciate any help on free mounting.

You didn't explain what issues you are having when free mounting.

The only issue I have on my V8F is not stepping on with my foot centered, but I can lift up my my foot enough to adjust it once I get going. Being able to truly one foot glide would help. I've only tried one foot glides for about 5 seconds at a time, and not very often. I can look down a bit after mounting to adjust my feet without losing balance or changing direction. 

I free mount on my V8F with my left foot on, and then step on with my right foot. I tilt my V8F a bit to the right when mounting and when stopping and stepping off. I find I position my step on foot a bit better if I don't try to push forwards too fast and instead just do a medium push, step on, and quickly lean forwards. Being able to ride at slow speed helps. In Wrong Way's how to ride video, his girlfriend Kate (Monokat) free mounts for the first time on a 77 lb Veteran Sherman. Wrong Way mentions she had 60 to 80 km of riding experience on different wheels (Mten, Tesla V2, Sherman), using support to mount and launch, so she already knew how to ride. She is able to free mount on her second attempt, quickly adjusting her foot back after stepping on (I got it on my third attempt):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc&t=634s

I practiced being able to look|move around while riding, mostly to be able to look to either side when approaching an intersection. There's one spot near my home where I'm looking left and back while turning right, in case I need to yield to a car not visible due to parked cars blocking my view, since this is soon followed by a left turn, or if there is a car, I slow or stop to let the car go by. I also ride a motorcycle, and unlike what I've seen mentioned in how to turn, looking doesn't cause a bike or EUC to turn (which it shouldn't, you need to be able to look around for possible traffic), rider inputs cause a bit or EUC to turn.

The most impressive case of this I've seen is this girl that slings her backpack around in front of her to put in a cell phone, then slings her backpack back on while riding an EUC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5HB40I4C3g&t=440s

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by rcgldr

[Circuitmage]

On 11/20/2022 at 4:07 AM, never_home said:

I am not trying to follow through into movement yet, nor am I, necessarily, trying to get my second foot on the wheel; even lifting it up and putting it down is difficult and painful.  Whilst I fully acknowledge that commencing the mount at the same time as rolling forwards will help stability, this is not the issue.  The issue is the immediate lateral force that is applied to my leg as soon as the floor foot is lifted. 

I think that is the crux of the issue. By definition, you HAVE to move forward while mounting the EUC (at least when you start learning). You already stated you can spin a half circle using 1 foot, that is a good start. But you have to do that, mount with your other foot as the wheel is moving forward (not turning) , and keep going. Once you can do that you can control the speed, practice turns, practice start and stops. 

If you try and stop the wheel , then mount, then yes...you will probably find yourself off balance and going nowhere. It's not like a bicycle where you mount it and then start pedaling. Even on a bicycle if you mount it and don't move, you will fall.

After a few days of balancing, you will learn to stop moving (a bit, or just momentarily) and mount/dismount. But that takes a few days of confidence and muscle memory. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Circuitmage

[Stevebee]

I used the method where your legs form a triangle with the wheel at the same angle. As you push forward the wheel becomes more or less upright with the weight going on the pedal. Standing leg then moves to the other pedal and away you go. This was on the V11.

When I used the same technique on the Sherman S it was trickier. It’s much more top heavy than the V11 and it falls toewards the standing leg or puts pressure on the calf on the wheel leg, which gets painful quickly. Am working at keeping it more upright than I did on the V11 which seems to be helping.

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, rcgldr said:

What do you mean by less effort?

And your guru Mr. WrongWay says it as well. Timestamped:

 

[rcgldr]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

WrongWay says it as well.

He mentions this with respect to power pads. During acceleration or inclines with power pads, part of the riders weight is resting on the front upper pads. In this case, tilting the EUC forward shifts the upper pads forward, shifting the riders weight forward, which will generate part or most of the forward torque the rider exerts onto the EUC, reducing the effort. This is similar to a rider shifting his feet forward on the pedals, which I mentioned before, but with power pads, the rider can shift weight beyond the ends of the pedals.

Without power pads, if the EUC is tilted forwards, the pedals.are moved backwards a bit with respect to the axle, and the rider would have to exert a bit more torque onto the EUC to compensate for the small amount of backwards shift of the pedals, increasing the effort (the amount of torque the rider exerts) by a small amount.

Wrong Way also mentions standing on toes, meaning heels lifted off the pedals, for a bit more torque exerted onto the EUC, but the effort to stand on toes would be about the same regardless of tilt.

Edited March 28, 2023 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

35 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

Without power pads, if the EUC is tilted forwards, the pedals.are moved backwards a bit with respect to the axle, and the rider would have to exert a bit more torque onto the EUC to compensate for the small amount of backwards shift of the pedals, increasing the effort (the amount of torque the rider exerts) by a small amount.

You are still thinking of a static state. Like I’ve said, there isn’t much difference in a static capture of a moment. It’s how you get there where the difference in effort is.

For the audience, this is I think the third time me and @rcgldr are having this exact same discussion.

This was all explained in my video, I wish you’d watch once it twice again in hopes that you’d get something out of it.

The wheel’s behavior matters during the time that it takes for you to reach the intended forward lean. If you’d start leaning on a wheel that’s powered off, you’d fall on your face faster than you can blink. That fall is what makes the softer modes require less effort. Gravity does it for us.

 If the ride mode is at it’s hardest, the wheel will try to catch you immediately when it senses that you have started to lean forward. Doing so it will try to cancel out your lean, which moves the wheel forward in relation to your body. As the wheel is more forward, your weight is applied less forward from the axle. This creates a slower acceleration.

 In softer modes the wheel notices that you have started leaning forward, but it doesn’t do anything about it at first. For a very short while you are almost in free fall. Your body moves forward in relation to the wheel, and once the tilt angle gets large enough for the wheel to react, you are further forward than you were with the hard mode. Further forward exerts a larger tilt on the wheel shell, so the wheel will accelerate faster.

This has nothing to do with pads. It has to do with the time period before your shins even reach the pads. The slower you accelerate, the smaller the difference is, since at very slow accelerations the low initial power that the wheel uses in the softer modes is already sufficient to keep the pedals nearly horizontal.

 Needless to say, the way the wheel reacts depends fully on its programming, so the ride modes in different wheels can be wildly different. And the detailed behavior can change with a simple firmware update. But none of that changes the fact that a softer mode always requires less effort to accelerate. How much though, depends on the wheel and firmware.

 If you are doing a full racing acceleration, softer modes can let you fall too far for the intended purpose, so you can overpower the wheel easier, and it can feel less stable. But the fact that the wheel is easier to overpower with softer settings should also tell you something about how the acceleration effort translates to the amount of power required from the wheel. 

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

... static state ...The wheel’s behavior matters during the time that it takes for you to reach the intended forward lean. ...  Gravity does it for us. ... If the ride mode is at it’s hardest, the wheel will try to catch you immediately when it senses that you have started to lean forward.

So you are focused on the effort to lean, while I am focused on the effort to accelerate: the amount of torque the rider has to exert onto the EUC. 

If standing on solid ground in a vertical position, a person has to press with their heels in order to initiate a forwards lean. Once leaned, a person has to press with their toes to prevent falling, keeping their center of mass between toes and heels. If there was something equivalent to power pads fixed to the ground (and|or tight shoes nailed to a floor), a person could lean much further, since the person can exert a torque onto the power pads, coexistent with the power pads exerting an opposing torque onto the person, allowing the person to shift their center of mass even beyond the power pads.

On an EUC, rider inputs are similar. While riding at constant speed and balanced, a rider exerts a backwards torque onto the EUC (if pedals only, by pressing with heels), which will cause the EUC to exert a backwards torque onto the wheel+tire, decelerating the EUC backwards from under the rider, leaning the rider forwards. Once leaned forwards, the rider controls the amount of lean angle and the amount of acceleration by exerting a forwards torque onto the EUC. 

With a soft pedal setting, some of that initial backwards torque just tilts the EUC backwards, resulting in a short delay before the EUC actually starts to decelerate and lean the rider forwards. Wrong Way refers to the softer setting delay in a more general sense that with a medium versus hard setting, an EUC will just tilt in response to slight torque inputs from the rider due to bumps or dips when riding off road, rather than instantly respond with acceleration or deceleration, resulting in a smoother ride. 

Once leaned forwards and the rider now exerting a forwards torque onto the EUC, a soft setting will result in some of that torque tilting the EUC forwards and a short delay before the EUC starts to accelerate, and that short delay will allow the rider to "fall" a bit more forwards, but then the rider has to briefly exert a bit more forwards torque onto the EUC in order to stop the "fall". 

Again, if the torque exerted by the rider onto the EUC isn't exactly matched by the torque the motor exerts onto the wheel+tire, then the EUC will be tilting forwards or backwards. At some point the EUC will stop tilting, and after the transition is completed, the torque exerted by the rider will exactly match the torque exerted by the motor. As mentioned in my prior post, power pads reduce the effort needed to exert a torque onto the EUC, and a soft setting combined with power pads will further reduce effort. 

Either the rider or the EUC can initiate the torque. For example, in the case of a tilt back, the EUC initiates the torque. In general, the rider initiates the torque in order to accelerate|decelerate, and the EUC initiates the torque in order to balance. Regardless if rider or EUC initiates the torque, the rider and motor torques have to be equal in order to keep the EUC from tilting. There will be a slight mis-match during a tilt transition with a soft setting, but once the transition completes, the torques equalize, and the EUC stops tilting any further.

As for the balancing logic, most of the rider's lean angle is controlled by the EUC accelerating or decelerating under the rider's center of mass, and only some of the lean angle is related to the torque between rider and EUC.

Edited March 28, 2023 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, rcgldr said:

So you are focused on the effort to lean, while I am focused on the effort to accelerate: the amount of torque the rider has to exert onto the EUC. 

During the steady state of the acceleration, the torque the shell has to be tilted forward with in order to keep accelerating is practically the same in all riding modes. The shell is just at a different tilt angle, just like it would be with an adjustable steady tilt setting. Keeping the same lean requires no effort, and is no different depending on the ride mode.

 The difference in effort is in how much apparent work the rider must do. Standing still does no work, and can’t really be described as “effort”, even if you’re standing on your toes or leaning against pads. Changing one’s  posture is what I call effort when it comes to EUC riding.

 In order to achieve for example a 20 degree forward lean, a rider with a soft mode can aim for a 10 degree lean, since the firmware lets the rider to fall a little extra. To achieve a 20 degree lean with a hard mode, the rider has to aim for a 30 degree lean, since the wheel will compensate and cancel out the lean as soon as there is any weight moved towards the front of the pedal. There is a significant difference in the physical work the rider must do. That’s what is generally considered as effort.

[rcgldr]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:40 AM, mrelwood said:

In order to achieve for example a 20 degree forward lean, a rider with a soft mode can aim for a 10 degree lean, since the firmware lets the rider to fall a little extra. To achieve a 20 degree lean with a hard mode, the rider has to aim for a 30 degree lean, since the wheel will compensate and cancel out the lean as soon as there is any weight moved towards the front of the pedal. There is a significant difference in the physical work the rider must do. That’s what is generally considered as effort.

The EUC reacts to the torque the rider exerts onto the EUC, not the rider's lean angle. Once leaned, if a rider exerts less torque than needed to hold a lean angle, lean angle increases, and if a rider exerts more torque than needed to hold a lean angle, lean angle decreases, regardless of pedal setting. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:40 AM, mrelwood said:

The shell is just at a different tilt angle, just like it would be with an adjustable steady tilt setting.

There is an increase in leverage depending on tilt angle (assuming rider lean angle >= tilt angle): the increase is 1 / cos(angle): 10 degrees of tilt, 1.5% more leverage; 15 degrees, 3.5%; 20 degrees, 6.4%; 25 degrees 10.3%; 30 degrees, 15.4%. Pedal clearance to ground will be reduced by 1/2 pedal length * sin(angle). I don't know what the maximum tilt is for a soft setting on a typical EUC.

Ankle bend will be reduced by tilt angle. It will be more comfortable, but many riders use ankle bend to get a sense of lean angle. With a hard setting, the reaction of acceleration or deceleration to rider control inputs is near instant, while with a softer setting there is some delay while the EUC is tilting, requiring the rider to apply control inputs sooner to compensate for the delay. A rider would have to acclimate to a softer setting to deal with these differences.

To  reduce calf fatigue, a rider can shift feet forwards on the pedals, which exerts a forwards torque on an EUC with no effort, but this reduces maximum braking torque.

Wrong Way mentions in his video that the main advantage of a medium setting is that the wheel won't instantly accelerate or decelerate in response to small tilts due to bumps or dips, making for a smoother off-road ride.

Edited March 31, 2023 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, rcgldr said:

I don't know what the maximum tilt is for a soft setting on a typical EUC.

My guess is that it gets difficult to get it dip more than maybe 4 degrees on modern wheels.

 Inmotion wheels have a very large % scale though, so it might be a bit more for those.