msx pro, bricked M50 packs and fried controller

[goatman]

Ya. Got 100.8v from charger going to both BMS with both packs paralleled together. It's not charging but I have a load tester connected right now instead of the control board. I'm going to try and connect the control board instead of the load tester when I get home. Do the packs com with controller in order to charge? I think both packs are sitting at 80.3 v right now

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by RagingGrandpa
(format bugfix)

[goatman]

plug it into controller and the charger still didnt work

grab multi meter and between c- and b- had 20.1 volts

unsoldered black wiire from c- and soldered it to b- and charger kicked on

 

pack voltage was at 79.7v when i got home so i checked b13 to b24 on bms and they were all down about 0.03 volts

something going on with the charging circuit

[goatman]

was charging up the packs last night but unplugged before fully charged because i ran out of time

this morning i checked the voltages b1 to b12 is 4.07v, b13 to b24 is 4.04v and the voltage between b- and c- is 4.5v with c- being positive

 i think pack voltage is 97.5v right now

the b- and c- voltage changed from 20v to 4.5v as the pack voltage increased

 what failed component would do that?

edit

if i unplug the HV jst from other pack then probe b- to hv red

i get 5.79v on b- to c- and b- to hv red 5.79v

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by goatman

[alcatraz]

I wish I was skilled enough to help you.

Hopefully you have one good pack. You can give it a cycle or two by riding it alone in the wheel. After it's been checked ok, stable.

Then to try and repair the broken bms you can measure the components on the good bms.

[supercurio]

BTW @goatman do you have a test load / battery tester?

It would be a a great way to exercise the packs, see everything is going well during charge then charge & balancing without having to actually ride on them in case anything goes wrong.

I have a DL24P (180W) and it's great for capacity testing, but I saw now that there's higher wattage versions (300W, 450W, 600W, 1200W) still at reasonable price points

 

[goatman]

Yes I have a load tester. It's rated for 150 watts but I replaced the MOSFET and can get 179 watts from it before software shuts down at 180 watts. The other BMS is fine. I think I'm just going to snip the balance wires and run it san's BMS til I build my other pack. 

The other pack I decided to use two 12s4p packs in series with a programmable Bluetooth active cell balancer. So I only need one balancer and don't have to switch between 2 balancer apps and save $$$

Edited April 12, 2022 by goatman

[goatman]

this bms on this 30q pack is actually working at balancing the cells but the -5.79v on the HV wires is coming from the other packs bms.

i need to pull the vtc6 pack out of the wheel and move the black charging wire from c- to b- and see what happens then

[goatman]

moved the black from c- to b- on the second pack,

put both packs in the wheel

left the hv-jst unplugged

the wheels together and working

pedals feel really hard , no dipping like the ninebot and they feel like theyre tilted back a little

i guess i need to download some apps now?

that and put some velcro on the sides, i got a deal on some SAI pads

[alcatraz]

Careful. By not using c- you have no overcharge protection.

Very dangerous!

[goatman]

i understand but c- shouldnt be giving a positive reading by moving c- im no longer in that danger zone while charging

these bms killed the other cells

the bms  is balancing the cells and the charger is kicking off at 100.8v

 i agree its not wise but these particular cells i know and have been using them in another pack for about a year with no bms. i was more tempted to rip them off and go without  bms' for now, safer in my opinion til someone can explain why C- is reverse polarity

im taking the wheel to work today, it will be living outside til i get my new packs

Edited April 13, 2022 by goatman

[alcatraz]

How about getting rid of that crappy bms. Attach 20AWG wires to all the balance points on the good pack and just connect them to the other pack without a bms. That way that single bms is still monitoring all the cells, and voltages can even out. It would be safe to ride and charge again.

[alcatraz]

Obviously you need to ensure all the cells are ok first. And that they're all at a similar level of charge as the other pack.

[goatman]

12 hours ago, alcatraz said:

How about getting rid of that crappy bms. Attach 20AWG wires to all the balance points on the good pack and just connect them to the other pack without a bms. That way that single bms is still monitoring all the cells, and voltages can even out. It would be safe to ride and charge again.

both bms are bad, they balance but the hv circuit was sending -5.79v from the vtc6 pack and both c- are reverse polarity

[goatman]

12 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Obviously you need to ensure all the cells are ok first. And that they're all at a similar level of charge as the other pack.

the 30Q and vtc6 have been "desulfated"

similar level of charge is what everyone says but not necessarily so,

theres alot of reading and repeating without ever testing to see if it applies to what your doing with a particular cell.

i paralleled the vtc6  pack@ 90v to the 30Q pack at 72v nothing got hot or even warm and they equalized around 80v

i wasnt all willy nilly about doing it, ive already done that testing before on these cells

 i wouldnt do it with batteries i dont know

thats kind of how i got into testing batteries

i would ask questions and people couldnt back what they were saying with test data so i bought a tester and started doing the tests to see if whats being said is true or not, alot is not, when it comes to high power cells

[alcatraz]

Wait. That's unlikely that both are bad.

Maybe that's a normal measurement because there's a cutoff circuit. By having a negative potential, current can't flow into the battery.

I'm just brainstorming. The strongest argument is that both bms shouldn't be bad.

In China there are some amazing smart BMS systems. Check out a brand called "jikong" 极空. They're like 50usd (locally) for a 24s bms. I'd try to fit one of those in the wheel and hook both packs up to it. It's got bluetooth and is extremely configurable. Begode would work with third party bms' because there aren't any special communication wires going inbetween.

[goatman]

both bms are paralleled on all the wires, all the old cells that were connected to both bms were drained to 0volts or went reverse polarity

this wheel only had a couple charge cycles on it when it crashed, it was basically a brand new wheel

the cells that werent connected to the b12 fuse were just fine, the 13s series  connection blew on the negative end of the cell 

so if see c- showing positive on both packs , i think something is wrong

i basically just got rid of the c- and the disconnected the hv parallel connection

 

 

[goatman]

put 50 km on the wheel this week, most of that today, just waiting for a helmet to arrive from amazon before i push it too hard but what a blast compared to the ninebot.

with the torque pads and running at 22 psi in soft mode and it just eats up the bumps, curbs and speed bumps 

it likes to tram a little too much at 28 psi

downloaded euc world and and the highest amp draw was about 27 battery amps(7amps/cell), 2550 watts and 100 phase amps 

[RagingGrandpa]

On 4/10/2022 at 8:57 PM, goatman said:

any problems with the leaperkim bms?

need to source cell holders and new bms

Leaperkim BMS won't work for a Gotway EUC.
Because Leaperkim does charging through the controller. Not directly to the packs.
 

On 4/11/2022 at 12:10 PM, goatman said:

Do the packs com with controller in order to charge?

Nope.
You should be able to charge the packs at any time.
It does not matter if the EUC controller is connected or active.
 

On 4/14/2022 at 9:19 AM, goatman said:

i basically just got rid of the c- and the disconnected the hv parallel connection

If you're daring enough to forego over-voltage charge-stop in one pack, then you might as well make life simple for yourself...

I think you said one pack will charge through C- correctly, if it's isolated.
So connect the charger to only that fully-working pack.
Then connect the output from both packs together.
(Leave the charge-stop "HV" connection unplugged)
Your good BMS will charge both packs at the same time, through its output. And likely, top-balancing on both packs will work.

But it's dangerous because if there is a severe imbalance in pack 2, charging can cause overvoltage and heating there.

[goatman]

on the 30Q pack the battery charger wouldnt start charging til i moved C- to B-

but 

The -5.79v was coming the vtc6 hv jst connector so i removed that pack from the wheel,

cut off the heatshrink, moved C- to B-, re did the heat shrink put both packs in the wheel and started using them.

Today and tomorrow is raining and im riding the wheel in it, i siliconed the 2 shells together a couple weeks ago while waiting for parts, ill open it up wednesday and see if any water is getting in and check the p-group voltages to see how its doing

[goatman]

can i fit a RS mudguard on the MSP?

was looking at this one on thingiverse

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4748884/files

[goatman]

11 hours ago, goatman said:

can i fit a RS mudguard on the MSP?

was looking at this one on thingiverse

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4748884/files

i printed it, the answer is no

anyone local want a free RS black pla+ mudguard?

[RagingGrandpa]

On 4/18/2022 at 6:09 PM, goatman said:

cut off the heatshrink, moved C- to B-, re did the heat shrink put both packs in the wheel and started using them.

Also beware: by doing that, you've defeated the charge port short-circuit protection.
Consider adding a ~5A fuse in series with the charging connector for each pack.

@goatman why not grab a replacement BMS? 
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005002948138859.html 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[goatman]

the reason is  because im not a fan of them, we call them battery murder systems and thats what i think it did to the old cells.

i dont want something i dont trust and theres no way to monitor the packs with them

mid may the P42a cells will be here and ill put on a bluetooth programmable active cell balancer and retire these packs, unless there is programmable bluetooth bms like the one you linked to

had a weird trip on the wheel tonight, a young homeless woman got hit by a car in front of me as i was riding, she got knocked down and got back up and i couldnt help but wonder if the driver was staring at me instead of her

then Canadian Tire told me i couldnt bring the wheel  inside the store, i was walking it with the trolly handle, told me to lock it up outside with the bikes

the good news is i wound up getting a full face visor flip up chin bar helmet from Amazon that came a week early,

i was out ripping around on the wheel, forgot to connect euc world but im impressed with it, was doing about 50km/h with 22 psi in the tire

[0000]

goatman, you still need a mudguard?

I printed the same one you did, but found the tabs to be useless, so I fashioned up a different way of attaching it with extra pieces and velcro rather than waste the print. Works great, and it's printed in ASA which is basically UV-resistant ABS so it'll survive a good amount of abuse/falls over PLA. The attachment pieces I made were designed to fit with the RS lights, but I think the general shape of the shell is the same so you should be able to slap some velcro strips over the case ridges for fitment.

$25 and it's yours

[Paul A]

On 4/19/2022 at 11:21 AM, goatman said:

can i fit a RS mudguard on the MSP?

was looking at this one on thingiverse

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4748884/files

 

On 4/19/2022 at 10:43 PM, goatman said:

i printed it, the answer is no

anyone local want a free RS black pla+ mudguard?

 

3 hours ago, Vanturion said:

I printed the same one you did, but found the tabs to be useless, so I fashioned up a different way of attaching it with extra pieces and velcro rather than waste the print. Works great, and it's printed in ASA which is basically UV-resistant ABS so it'll survive a good amount of abuse/falls over PLA. The attachment pieces I made were designed to fit with the RS lights, but I think the general shape of the shell is the same so you should be able to slap some velcro strips over the case ridges for fitment.

$25 and it's yours

 

https://revrides.com/products/msx-pro-mudguard?_pos=8&_sid=65d854ab8&_ss=r