Swapping out Ninebot S battery (236Wh) with MiniPro battery (310Wh)

[LesC]

I have a Ninebot S that I have added M4M hybrid tires. I take it to the golf course and barely can make 18 holes with it and relatively flat courses, although I usually can make it. But it is surprisingly gets pretty darn close to depleting the battery. Last week, I barely got back to my car with the device beeping at me because I was at 7% battery left.

I'm hoping if I swap out the stock battery (236 Wh / 4300mAh) with a MiniPro pre-2018 battery (310 Wh / 5700mAh) that this would now comfortably get me through a round of golf. I have read a few places that I would need to use the bigger charger as well (i.e. the 63V version rather than the 59V version that comes stock with the Ninebot S), but I can get one of those.

Has anybody here had expertise in doing exactly this and getting more range? I also understand that the app may not necessarily show the right information, but as long as I get more range, I would be more than happy.

Thanks.

/LesC

[LesC]

Well, I guess I can answer my own question now that I received the new 310 Wh battery.

I easily finished a round of golf with about 24% battery life remaining. And that was without babying the device at all ... not feeling like I had to stay on the cart paths as much as before. The hybrid tires are a must, IMHO, if you're going to use this for golf courses.

Now, I have not received my 63V charger yet, so I only topped off my 310 Wh battery using my 59.5 V / 2.0 amp charger. But it LOOKS like I still got the full >5700mAh charge on it, and the app said I got 18.5 miles when it was fully charged. I did not measure the voltage on the battery, though. From what I've been reading in this forum, I had expected to only see the app show it being at around 4800mAh or something like that.  So, not sure if indeed I was at 5700mAh like the app said (it actually had 5723mAh at the full charge) or it was the app just "rounding up" when it really was at 80% charge. I'll try to put a volt meter on it next time, but also compare it using the 63V charger once that comes in a few weeks.

[Invader Zog]

Where did you get the battery BTW?

[LesC]

I kept checking ebay for weeks. Never had anything show up until I got lucky one day finding a seller wanting to sell a brand new one for a reasonable price. I was the highest bidder.

Never found a good 63v charger though that wasn't suspicious looking or clearly not Ninebot.  So I ended up buying from a Hong Kong vendor and willing to wait the month for delivery.

[FreeRide]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:24 PM, LesC said:

I kept checking ebay for weeks. Never had anything show up until I got lucky one day finding a seller wanting to sell a brand new one for a reasonable price. I was the highest bidder.

Never found a good 63v charger though that wasn't suspicious looking or clearly not Ninebot.  So I ended up buying from a Hong Kong vendor and willing to wait the month for delivery.

The 63V charger from More4Mini is the one you want. 

[LesC]

I actually ended up getting a 3rd party charger that works fine. (much cheaper than the M4M version). It perhaps may not be as reliable, but it does seem to fully charge the battery to ~63V when I need it. I use it to "top off" the charge after I have fully charged the battery using the standard 59.5V NInebot charger. So it's only plugged in for an hour or so while I can oversee it.

[Thekwon]

looking to take my Ninebot S on the course with a M4M handlebar.   Worried about getting through 18 holes since I’m 230lbs and will be carrying a golf bag as well.  
 

Couple questions for the group: 

1.  Is this the only way to upgrade the battery?  Are there any aftermarket solutions?

2.  Why do you recommend the hybrid tires?   What is the experience without them?   Planning on going out with the stock tires this Saturday.  

[Thekwon]

https://www.ninebotus.com/310wh-minipro-battery/
 

Can I upgrade my Nine S with this?   Hope so! I just ordered one.   

What’s the verdict on using the stock Nine S 59v charger with this?  Seems you’ve been able to get a full charge on the 310?

 

Thank you!

 

[kristof_explorer]

On 5/10/2020 at 3:58 PM, Thekwon said:

https://www.ninebotus.com/310wh-minipro-battery/
 

Can I upgrade my Nine S with this?   Hope so! I just ordered one.   

What’s the verdict on using the stock Nine S 59v charger with this?  Seems you’ve been able to get a full charge on the 310?

 

Thank you!

 

It looks like the one I got on an ‘upgraded battery’ refurbished minipro, the 5700mAh battery, it works great on my ninebot s.

According to the firmware, it charges to 5700mAh+ for me with default nine-s charger. I first saw ~4800 full charge, but after BMS firmware update the app prompted, showed ~5700 (and continues to charge to this reading). However, i have also been told here that the BMS was upgraded solely to falsify this data (?) , so who knows.

 

this is the best way of upgrading the battery life i know of. I have regularly been traveling with a 2nd battery and swapping on-the-go.

It depends what terrain you usually ride on, but i have been using the offroad tires from m4m, which work well at low psi on all terrain but cost a lot in battery+bumpiness on pavement. I’m looking into alternatives and recently ordered some stronger hybrid type tires not available on m4m, a while before they arrive, but i dont like the look of m4m hybrid tires personally.

 

also i hope that battery is legit because i may be ordering a couple 😄

[LesC]

Sorry for the delayed response. I've been away from this site for a bit. But I finally got caught up on some of the recent chatter.

At first, I used my stock Ninebot S on a golf course about 4 times -- with the stock tires and the smaller 236wh battery. I weight about 195-200 pounds. I did NOT carry my bag, but rather pushed or pulled a cart ... to be conservative as I tested out the range. Also, these were on very flat courses (Sunnyvale GC in Sunnyvale, CA and Moffett GC). I also babied it to be safe (i.e. no quick acceleration, did not meander around the course unless I had to). I BARELY made it around the course on a single charge twice. Once, I ran out of juice on the 17th hole. The last time was with me carrying my bag (no pull cart). I didn't want to risk it and I put my Segway on my buddy's cart at the turn while I continued on the rest of the 9 holes. The charge showed it was down to 45% already after 9 holes.  I found that I able to make it around if I stayed on the paved golf paths as much as possible. But if you have to spend most of the time on the grass (like at Moffett which doesn't have paths throughout the course), you will NOT make it through a full round on the stock battery, especially if you're going to carry the bag.

I then upgraded the battery to the 310wh battery. No issues whatsoever getting around any golf course, INCLUDING with the bag on my back, which obviously is much more convenient once you don't have to worry about range . And I don't have to baby it ... and can drive it around the course much more freely, looking for other people's golf balls, etc.

Re the tires ... So, I quickly realized that it is a bit slippery on the grass with the stock tires. This is especially true if the grass is just a bit wet. It is most obvious when you get off the paved path onto the grass. Even light rough causes you to be careful otherwise it will slip, or at the very least, you are WORRIED about it slipping. So, after I put the hybrid tires on it, it is much better on the golf course. No issues on the grass, even if it's mildly wet. Also, because they are a bit larger than the original tires, it eats up the bumps better, and especially the transitions between long/short grass, or between the paved path to the grass ... all I can take confidently now.

Finally, RE charging. If I charge the larger battery with the normal 59.5W charger, the app will "show" 100% charged, and even show that there are 5700mAh on it... and the voltage goes no higher than 59.5W as you would expect. The range will "show" that it can go 18 miles. So I tried it, and was able to get around the golf course fine, but with only about 10-20% charge left, typically. But it was fine. Then I got the 3rd party charger (63W). I charge it by first topping off with the 59.5W charger .. then I additionally top it more with the 63W charger (for about an hour) and monitor it with the app. I get it to about 62W or so before I unplug the charger. The app will still show about 18.3 miles or so, and the mAh will show about 5736 or so. So it doesn't look like much improvement. BUT ... it DEFINITELY goes farther ... without question. I'm thinking that I can go about 3 holes or so before the mAh drops below 4800 which was not true before. And ... at the end of the round, I typically have well over 30% charge left on the same course where I had 15% charge before. Sometimes, I even finish the round with 45% left (on a warm day)!!

I hope this helps.

[kristof_explorer]

That is very interesting about the battery and the 63v charger. I actually have one of them on the way now from m4m, it seems they just got them in stock, so I’ll see if i notice as dramatic an effect. Do you notice any difference in power when it’s charged to higher voltages? I wonder why ninebot would supply a weaker charger if the battery can accept and perform better with more volts (I’m sure this has been answered already somewhere, but I dont know), would it presumably improve battery lifespan?

Currently, I roll with 3 of the 5700mAh/310wh batteries; sometimes, in fact i travel with 2 in a backpack to swap on the go, as i like to go on longer mountain bike trail expeditions! I built a releasable mechanism to hold in the battery without the use of the original screws, so it’s a little less of a pain to change batteries.

It would be great to add a more capacity and power yet, so I’m looking forward to trying out the 63v charger, and I’ll report back ...

[LesC]

There is already a well-read (and very interesting!) thread about the 59.5V versus 63.0V charger.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/6346-battery-capacity/

If you have time, read the entire thread. Bottom line, 63V charger DEFINITELY makes a difference. Segway/Ninebot probably does not provide the 63V charger because of battery life, which that thread will explain.

No extra power ... just more range. I do notice that the max top speed starts "dropping" after I get to about 40% charge or around there. i.e. normally beeps around 11mph, but once I reach about 40%, it'll start beeping around 10.5mph, then progressively lower and lower. I believe it does this to try to conserve as much battery life as possible as you're getting into the "reserve" range.

Edited June 27, 2020 by LesC

[LesC]

@kristof_explorer ... Oh, interesting about the "releasable mechanism" to do the quick battery exchange! Do you mind showing some pictures of what this looks like? I was thinking of somehow jury rigging this as well, but didn't want to risk the battery falling off.

What I decided to do is simply dedicate a power screwdriver that always has a 3mm hex nut on it. That way, I can take off all four screws, swap batteries, and tighten the screws again ... probably in less than one minute I would guess.

 

[kristof_explorer]

16 hours ago, LesC said:

@kristof_explorer ... Oh, interesting about the "releasable mechanism" to do the quick battery exchange! Do you mind showing some pictures of what this looks like? I was thinking of somehow jury rigging this as well, but didn't want to risk the battery falling off.

What I decided to do is simply dedicate a power screwdriver that always has a 3mm hex nut on it. That way, I can take off all four screws, swap batteries, and tighten the screws again ... probably in less than one minute I would guess.

 

Sure, I’ll get some pictures to demonstrate how it works, it’s still in the process of being designed so it’s rather crude but regardless, easier than handling 4 little screws in the middle of the woods   Also, I’d removed and replaced the screws so many times, the threading on the holes has started to wear down, and i fear it being totally destroyed with much more wear. (I did think about the power screwdriver, but a bit much to carry around in with 2 heavy batteries as well)

 

And thank you for the link, I did happen to have some insomnia which facilitated me going over that thread again - I’d glanced over it before but hadn’t quite understood the actual battery concepts behind the idea. It’s very interesting, even slightly relieving, as I live on a hill and have worried about overcharging a full battery going down it, now I know the batteries were never full to begin with! I’m much more interested though in the extra capacity the full charge would avail.

But I’m puzzled, as my 5700mAh batteries read 4800-ish after charging when i got them initially, but after a prompted bms update, the reading was the expected 5700+, on the same charge. So what is the bms doing? Is it actually just generating an inflated reading, in effect? Does it then just last really long on ‘full’ for you?

[kristof_explorer]

@LesC ok, so I ended up just recording a time-lapse of me doing a battery swap. not sure the best way to post this but i'll just try youtube.

basically, i have to remove 1 nut, pop off the top bar which releases the 2 bars holding in the battery, swap battery, and reinsert the bars where they lock in place under the rear/bottom beam, popping the top beam back over the bolt, and reattach nut. the whole structure is built upon wood pieces i 'machined' to fit in under the side areas, they screw into the large (unused) threaded holes there.

so far, it seems very durable and effective. my first prototype was a totally different design that used tensioned cables. unfortunately, the cables were impossible to keep tight enough and on rough terrain, evidently the battery came out/detached just enough for some sort of short circuit to occur. it just turned off as i went over a bump, and i found evidence of scorching at the battery/control board terminal, and the control board dead.. :\ (thankfully, i had a backup/2nd segway to take a board from)

i am much more confident in this version, though, and it has held up so far in pretty adverse conditions! as i say, though, this is still very much in the design phase. i would like to be able to use it without a tool, at least.

 

[LesC]

@kristof_explorer ...  Nice!! Thanks for posting.

I actually was thinking of exactly what your first prototype did ... have some type of tensioning straps to make it very easy to attach/detach, but was very afraid of it not being able to securely hold the battery. You confirmed my suspicions!! Sorry you had to lose a control board in the process.

Nice little setup! So, it sounds like if nothing else, you can replace that one bolt with a wing nut that you can hand loosen and tighten? That would eliminate the need for the one tool.

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by LesC

[kristof_explorer]

5 hours ago, LesC said:

@kristof_explorer ...  Nice!! Thanks for posting.

I actually was thinking of exactly what your first prototype did ... have some type of tensioning straps to make it very easy to attach/detach, but was very afraid of it not being able to securely hold the battery. You confirmed my suspicions!! Sorry you had to lose a control board in the process.

Nice little setup! So, it sounds like if nothing else, you can replace that one bolt with a wing nut that you can hand loosen and tighten? That would eliminate the need for the one tool.

 

You're right, and I'll try to remember to get that size wing nut the next time I'm at the store (nylon wing nut would be ideal, I think! but not a common item). And that's interesting you had that idea as well, yeah I don't recommend trying it. At first I had it very tight and tried it successfully on a VERY bumpy mountain bike trail (never considered/imagined the possible severity of eventual outcome), terrain wasn't even as rough when it failed, but I think the cables likely loosened a little bit over time also. I wasn't quite comfortable either with the high amount of tension needed.

I would say actually that this part of the 'rig' I am satisfied with for now, and I'm more focused on refining the rest of the wood/metal frame. Particularly, I want to shrink it so nothing sticks out like the wood in the front does now, this way I can bounce/hop over bigger obstacles 

[kristof_explorer]

Well, the 63V charger finally arrived yesterday, and I can attest to it definitely charging the battery more fully! My driveway is rather long & steep downhill, and I tried going down it after charging with this charger to see if some sort of overcharge warning would (should) occur. And, it did! The segway soon came to a stop on its own and with the app open, I received a warning not to brake hard or go down a slope due to the battery voltage being too high! I was sometimes worried about this before, when I *thought* the batteries were being charged fully, but I never received any warning or felt anything like that hard braking going down the hill after a charge.

I also think, at least, I am feeling a bit more power and responsiveness at higher charge levels, in the sense of less 'hesitation,' especially on rougher/uphill terrain. Like there is just more power to draw from at any given time. It's somewhat subtle though, and possible I'm imagining it. But it would make sense, as I have noticed that riding on 80-100% feels a lot better than say, at 30 or 40%, like there's more "pep." I'm not sure I have any real way to measure this though.

I'm still curious what is going on with the BMS/app reading, that it displays up to 100% whether charged to 59.5 or 63V, and seems to deplete linearly in both cases..

[xaveus]

I’m bit late to this thread, but I’d love to know more about the process of swapping the batteries.

I’m building a custom chassis based on Mini s-Plus components, and a mini-Pro battery. The cells need rearranging into a different shape to fit around suspension parts.

Which BMS did you use, the mini or plus’s?

Did you do much re-wiring or soldering to attach the main connector, the nickel plates or the small coloured wires which a linking the cells?

I hope you can spare a few minutes to explain what’s involved in the conversion.

Thanks