Voltage Wars (split from Begode ET MAX Announcement)

[UniVehje]

(This topic was started on a new 168v Begode announcement, split here to not cause off topic discussion)

Is this a good time to talk about voltage wars? 

I mean if more is better, then why not go all the way up? Why not 184.4? Or 210? When is enough?

When do they start concentrating on something else? Did we really need more volts? Was that the bottle neck for most riders? 

I do understand that racing is now a thing. Nothing against that. I would race if I had a place and opportunity to do so. And there should and will be special version for that. 

Personally I just wanted more reliability and easier to maintain suspension but to get that, my next wheel will have way more volts. I never run out of volts but apparently we need more. I hope it's a good thing and I'll benefit from it somehow. 

Edited January 2 by UniVehje

[Underthebag]

4 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Is this a good time to talk about voltage wars? 

I mean if more is better, then why not go all the way up? Why not 184.4? Or 210? When is enough?

When do they start concentrating on something else? Did we really need more volts? Was that the bottle neck for most riders? 

I do understand that racing is now a thing. Nothing against that. I would race if I had a place and opportunity to do so. And there should and will be special version for that. 

Personally I just wanted more reliability and easier to maintain suspension but to get that, my next wheel will have way more volts. I never run out of volts but apparently we need more. I hope it's a good thing and I'll benefit from it somehow. 

I think more volts offers a higher top speed but the commander Gt pro at 200km is probably at the point where anymore speed is not going to sell wheels, most customer will start to realize they are unable to ride at max speed that the GT offers. That said maybe 200volts will be useful if begode can find a way to make the extra voltage increase torque instead of speed.  

[Hellkitten]

I’m with ya on this so far. I’m mostly happy with my Sherman S at 100volts. I’d love more immediate access to torque for braking and acceleration, but I personally don’t need much more speed. Maybe a little more for headroom. At some point it’s going to be difficult to charge multiple high voltage wheels on a North American plug. 

[RagingGrandpa]

2 hours ago, Underthebag said:

200volts will be useful if begode can find a way to make the extra voltage increase torque instead of speed

It's exactly what they've done so far: using slower motors with higher voltage, to permit both high torques and high speeds. It's great! 

I think EX30 is the best example of the benefit of increased voltage we've seen thusfar: class-leading low-end grunt, and also class-leading top speeds. 
I've got local riders that have become accustomed to the EX30's limits, who are now completely unsatisfied with 100V EUC's. 
 

1 hour ago, Hellkitten said:

it’s going to be difficult to charge multiple high voltage wheels on a North American plug

Yup, forget about 20A charging from 120VAC. We can't.
 

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Why not 184.4? Or 210? When is enough?

The market will reveal it...
If suitable electronics are available, I expect the manufacturers will debut higher and higher voltages, until people stop buying them. Either due to cost & price, or due to lack of performance benefit.

There was a tire diameter war until 2021... now the market has settled on the 14" rim for most, 17" for the cruiser crowd, and no other 18"-rim EUC since the MP24 experiment. Why? I think it stands to reason that the market became familiar with the tradeoffs that larger tires represent (more weight and slower dynamics), and sales volumes trended lower and lower as sizes got larger.
 

Edited January 2 by RagingGrandpa

[UniVehje]

14 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

It's exactly what they've done so far: using slower motors with higher voltage, to permit both high torques and high speeds. It's great! 

I think EX30 is the best example of the benefit of increased voltage we've seen thusfar: class-leading low-end grunt, and also class-leading top speeds. 
I've got local riders that have become accustomed to the EX30's limits, who are now completely unsatisfied with 100V EUC's. 

This is a good example of a real benefit. Although I personally really didn't need more, torque is something that might come handy in some situations. 

To be clear, voltage does not increase torque in itself. It's magnets and winding that affect torque. Higher voltage only allows using motors wound for torque at higher speeds also. 

For me it would have been enough to run a 100v system at higher torque and top speed at 50 km/h. But I understand it's not enough for most enthusiasts.

14 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

The market will reveal it...
If suitable electronics are available, I expect the manufacturers will debut higher and higher voltages, until people stop buying them. Either due to cost & price, or due to lack of performance benefit.

I agree that market decides. Although that would require options for market to choose from. I'm part of the market that didn't ask for higher voltage and I just ordered a 151,2 volt wheel for lack of options. I would have chosen a cheaper (or lighter) and lower voltage option of a wheel with similar suspension and quality. 

Of course the story is the same for other features also. Right now the market seems to want heavier wheels also. Some outsider could look at the numbers and conclude that the heavier the wheel, the better it sells. 

[Mono]

A somewhat necessary watch when it comes to the question of voltage and electric motors

and a somewhat comprehensive tutorial on a more sophisticated level

with a small overview at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_constants

In summary, there are practically zero physical-technological reasons for higher voltages (say, above 50V). And before you ask, operating the same motor at a higher voltage gives a higher terminal velocity, right up until the wires burn through.

[Robse]

The main household power supply in China is 220V , so i think that's where the war will stop. 

[Underthebag]

5 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

It's exactly what they've done so far: using slower motors with higher voltage, to permit both high torques and high speeds. It's great! 

I think EX30 is the best example of the benefit of increased voltage we've seen thusfar: class-leading low-end grunt, and also class-leading top speeds. 
I've got local riders that have become accustomed to the EX30's limits, who are now completely unsatisfied with 100V EUC's. 
 

Yup, forget about 20A charging from 120VAC. We can't.
 

The market will reveal it...
If suitable electronics are available, I expect the manufacturers will debut higher and higher voltages, until people stop buying them. Either due to cost & price, or due to lack of performance benefit.

There was a tire diameter war until 2021... now the market has settled on the 14" rim for most, 17" for the cruiser crowd, and no other 18"-rim EUC since the MP24 experiment. Why? I think it stands to reason that the market became familiar with the tradeoffs that larger tires represent (more weight and slower dynamics), and sales volumes trended lower and lower as sizes got larger.
 

a little odd that 15'' and 16'' rims have not been explored yet. 

[ThatOneGuy]

I think with the industry standardizing on 21700 cells and the 4 pack form factor we'll see voltages continue to climb for a bit on the higher capacity wheels. With 84 and even 100v packs running 18650's you could fit another set of cells in parallel, but now the only way to add more without running out of room is to simply add them in series instead. The newer cells can handle enough current that 4p is unlikely to be a limiting factor ever again, so there's no need to try to do anything different.